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Man, the first two movies come out on Bluray here Monday but Rebellion isn't til the end of September. :/
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Aug 5, 2015 15:10
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AlternateNu posted:Small hints? She literally summons her witch counterpart and has it grapple with Homura's witch form. Also she transforms into a witch by stabbing it out of herself like it's an Evoker.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:10
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I started Fate/Zero last night as well. The first episode reminded me a little bit too much of why I disliked Game of Thrones (tons of characters with disjointed stories thrown at you all at once, especially since it was an hour long). However I'm on episode three and it's not so bad now, and considering the length I'll probably come to terms with it soon enough. Really like the Servants so far, seems like they are all really unique characters with a lot of potential to make for a good story.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:11
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Hommando posted:She was essentially Madoka's valkyrie that went with her to save Homura. There really wasn't much explanation as to why she is capable of doing this. Wait, wait, wait... Okay. Major  incoming.We know that there are at least three instances of Sakaya turning into a witch. We see two during the various timelines before Madoka's wish (and there's presumably many more, as Sakaya never seems to survive until Warpurgisnacht and probably becomes a magical girl in many, if not all timelines). Then, after Madoka's reset, the entire universe plays out again, and Sakaya turns into a witch yet again, only nobody knows because she's immediately whisked away to Madokaland and/or mercy-killed. So, which Sakaya is it in Rebellion, given how she apparently knew Madoka before being witchnapped, AND remembers her relation to Kyoko from the TV series? Is she from the original timeline? If Madoka witchnaps witches from all possible timelines everywhere, does this mean there's an infinite army of Sakayas in Madokaland? Do they kinda merge after death into one soup of witchiness? Or is the Rebellion Sakaya the one from the Wraith universe at the very end of the series? We know Mami and Kyoko are from there, and memories from the original timeline kinda leaked into their heads (like Wraith-universe Kyoko suddenly remembering witches and whatnot). Maybe the same happened to Wraith-Sakaya? It felt a little lazy to me to bring her back like that, but whatevs, it's nice to see the character getting over her utter and complete devastation in the series. Good thing Homura pushed the universe reset button, though. TL;DR:
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Aug 5, 2015 16:00
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Torquemadras posted:Okay. Man, I remember when I had the same reaction as you. Finishing this show for the first time is a magical moment, pun intended. People already mentioned Fate/Zero, which to me is Gen Urobuchi's second best after Madoka. Ill second Shinbou's Monogatari series, since it has similarly abstract art and he directs it much the same way as Madoka. As far as art style + quality of narrative, Ill also throw out Kyousogiga, though it has a very different tone. From The New World has a similar kind of story.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:18
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Torquemadras posted:Wait, wait, wait... Okay. Major I always assumed Madoka imparted to Sayaka a portion of her pre-Godoka-reset memories after she was taken by the Law of the Cycle in the new universe. In the final episode after we see her flare out and they're sitting in the theater watching Kyousuke play, Madoka apologizes to Sayaka for not really being able to save her this time, and Sayaka gives her the "nah, its cool." response.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:30
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Torquemadras posted:Wait, wait, wait... Okay. Major Uh, once you go to Magical Girl Valhalla, I always assumed you were outside the universe. If you were involved in multiple universes/timelines, all of your experiences would culminate into one final existence. Basically, Rebellion Sayaka is every Sayaka that ever was, the final Sayaka that matured and found a balance between her struggles and life.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:40
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Torquemadras posted:Wait, wait, wait... Okay. Major Torquemadras posted:What the gently caress  about Sakura's magic. She was "trained" in magic by Zouken forcibly filling her body full of magic worms and bugs, which basically forcibly overwrote every cell in her body one by one, down to the DNA. (Which is why she has purple hair/eyes, instead of her original coloration of black hair/blue eyes.) Given that she reportedly screamed for 3 days straight at the beginning, this is likely rather painful. She also has to go revisit the worm pit every night, for her daily dose of magic torture. She can't even attempt to run away or betray the Matou family, as the worm that's Zouken's true body put is lodged right next to her heart, and can easily kill her. To quote the Fate/Stay Wiki - "Upon looking at Sakura Tohsaka depicted in Character material, Gen Urobuchi thought “aah, right now I’m writing about a world that does its best to brutally mistreat this kind of girl.” It was a "huge mental burden" for him, so he decided to torment her even more. While she only appears twice, her "misery index" may actually be the highest in Fate/Zero."
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Aug 5, 2015 16:57
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AlternateNu posted:I always assumed Madoka imparted to Sayaka a portion of her pre-Godoka-reset memories after she was taken by the Law of the Cycle in the new universe. In the final episode after we see her flare out and they're sitting in the theater watching Kyousuke play, Madoka apologizes to Sayaka for not really being able to save her this time, and Sayaka gives her the "nah, its cool." response. Madoka is fairly clear that she can save Sayaka, she just didn't: "The only way I could save you would to make it like none of this had happened, which means that this future would have to disappear as well. But I got the feeling that you didn't really want it to turn out like that. I truly value your wish and all the hard work you put into it." As an aside, that sequence is a part of Madoka that fits together with Fate/Zero, as it is an indicator of Madoka's idealism blinding her, much like Saber's blinded her. Sayaka's wish leads directly to her death, saying that her wish was good is the same as saying her death was worth Kyousuke's hand. In absolute terms, Kyousuke's hand was not worth dying over, no one except Madoka and Sayaka would think this is a good thing. In effect, it shows the end result of wish fulfillment, and how an ideology based upon it is not functional. We see much the same with Saber in the Grail Dialogue, how her concept of being a king destroyed the people around her: "Proud King of Knights. The righteousness and ideals you bore may have saved your country once. However...I'm sure you know what happened to those who were constantly and only saved. You saved your subjects, but you never led them. You never showed them what a king should be. You abandoned your men when they lost their way. Alone and untroubled, you followed your own pretty little ideals. Thus, you are no true king. You are but a little girl, bound by the false idol of a king who serves others but not himself." "Little girl, wake up from that sad dream of yours. The dream of the kingship you spoke of is a curse." Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 17:27
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AlternateNu posted:Comparatively, Hitomi is the worst person in the show. "I know how you feel. I know you've known him longer, but I want him, too. I'll give you 24 hours. After that, he's fair game." I agree she should wait forever for Sakuya do do something, despite the fact that Sayaka and the guy weren't going out and she wasn't really under any obligation to give 24 hours to begin with What a bitch
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Aug 5, 2015 17:57
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Lord Justice posted:As an aside, that sequence is a part of Madoka that fits together with Fate/Zero, as it is an indicator of Madoka's idealism blinding her, much like Saber's blinded her. Sayaka's wish leads directly to her death, saying that her wish was good is the same as saying her death was worth Kyousuke's hand. In absolute terms, Kyousuke's hand was not worth dying over, no one except Madoka and Sayaka would think this is a good thing. In effect, it shows the end result of wish fulfillment, and how an ideology based upon it is not functional. But now I'm also having trouble getting the image of King Arthur/Arturia being a magical girl out of my head.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:59
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Blaziken386 posted:If Kiritsugu making bullets-of-gently caress-you out of his own body is enough to make you go WTF, you'll be even more You know, it's not even that the explanation is so hosed up. Actually, I think it's pretty cool to make mage killer bullets out of your own ribs.  But the detailed explanation was... well... incredibly stupid. That's what I was so surprised about. It's magebabble, the sillier cousin of technobabble, taken to extremes. I... really don't think it works. It's like trying to appear smart after the fact. Just because you spend a paragraph detailling your magic science, it does not make it NOT incredibly contrived and oh so convenient for just the right moment. It's like playing Magic The Gathering, only the rules are made up afterwards. Someone described it as Calvinball...In short: while a badass concept, I think it was handled horribly in the anime, and the detailed (light novel?) explanation strikes me as unnecessarily convoluted and contrived. It's not smart. I was going WTF over the entirely unneeded details... No offense, Lord Justice, I'm pretty sure it's described exactly like that the light novel... I'm really not squeamish about those sorts of concepts, they tend to fall of the scale and become hilarious again  Also, Lord Justice, that's a really nice observation about the dialogue! I love how Rider keeps dispensing sage advise while giving zero fucks.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:01
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Torquemadras posted:You know, it's not even that the explanation is so hosed up. Actually, I think it's pretty cool to make mage killer bullets out of your own ribs. Well, that's one of the problems about watching Fate/Zero as a stand alone. You're going to get WTF explanations for some things that are entirely consistent with the greater Nasuverse. The concept of Origins and Mystical Codes and whatnot is actually more important in the other Type-Moon works. Folding part of it into the Fate franchise was more of a wave to the fans than anything else. It is practically meaningless within the confines of Fate/Zero.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:08
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Blaziken386 posted:People being betrayed by their ideals is kind of a central thing in the Fate series, yeah. I honestly feel that Arturia probably does exist in the Madoka universe, being a girl who made a wish and became King Arthur. Maybe not in the same way, but still. We know at least that Joan of Arc existed as a Magical Girl. Torquemadras posted:You know, it's not even that the explanation is so hosed up. Actually, I think it's pretty cool to make mage killer bullets out of your own ribs. Yeah, parts of the Type Moon universe are explained in very minute detail. As a quick aside, my hose analogy was poor and not indicative of what Kiritsugu's Dual Origin does. The Severing and Binding isn't one action, it is the cut of the Magic Circuits, which allows the magic to spiral out control in the body (think of water allowing a short circuit within an electronic device), then binds the Magic Circuits together like a knot, making them useless. Anyway, A lot of that stuff is based on your perspective, I'd say. Personally, I love that aspect of the Type Moon universe, despite not liking much of the actual works within it. The detail makes it so everything fits together nicely, and the fight with Kayneth is very consistent with its rules, if you understand the rules behind the abilities then it all fits together. I also feel like pointing out that the fight was an introduction to Kiritsugu's abilities, this is how he's always fought, it's just the first time the audience has seen it. They do make an effort to explain the abilities in use as well, Kayneth talking about Kiritsugu's use of Time Manipulation within a Bounded Field ( A patchwork of magic energy spread over an area, which in this case was Kiritsugu's own body), which in execution is similar to a Reality Marble (A method to enforce the user's rules within a specific Bounded Field, such as Rider's Ionian Hetairoi) for example. As soon as Kiritsugu shoots Kayneth as well, there's a sequence where Natalia explains how Kiritsugu's bullets work. But yeah, your mileage may vary, a lot of it is "magebabble", but it is consistent "magebabble" and I feel that's an important distinction to make.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:17
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AlternateNu posted:Well, that's one of the problems about watching Fate/Zero as a stand alone. You're going to get WTF explanations for some things that are entirely consistent with the greater Nasuverse. The concept of Origins and Mystical Codes and whatnot is actually more important in the other Type-Moon works. Folding part of it into the Fate franchise was more of a wave to the fans than anything else. It is practically meaningless within the confines of Fate/Zero. ...oh dear, this is gonna have a "All original characters are dead & status quo is restored & here are all characters of the sequel as kids" ending, isn't it? Granted, I have no idea who's in the sequel (it's my understanding Fate/Zero is a prequel, and I'm not gonna spoil the everloving poo poo out of me by looking up the sequel), and I certainly don't know what the status quo is gonna be later on. Still. I'm a little filled with dread now, regarding that. Oh well. If it's all just fan-pleasing empty gestures, then I hope I can completely overlook it in favor of the story. Still not to keen on it, but I suspect the fight scenes wouldn't have been much better without the magibabble. Onwards to episode 14: tentacles. 
Torquemadras fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 18:19
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It's a prequel made after the original, but there's nothing that directly contradicts the sequel iirc. However if you do move onto the other stuff, obviously don't expect it to build on the same themes as zero was made after and by a different guy
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Aug 5, 2015 18:23
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Namtab posted:I agree she should wait forever for Sakuya do do something, despite the fact that Sayaka and the guy weren't going out and she wasn't really under any obligation to give 24 hours to begin with It's a valuable life lesson, in that if you want senpai to notice you, you shouldn't just wait and hope for it to happen.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:42
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Torquemadras posted:...oh dear, this is gonna have a "All original characters are dead & status quo is restored & here are all characters of the sequel as kids" ending, isn't it? As far as the whole "all the characters in the sequel are the kids" well... it does take place during the next Holy Grail War.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:53
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Just finished episode 6. LOL Madoka you moron.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:18
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boom boom boom posted:Just finished episode 6. Madoka isn't a particularly likable character in my opinion. At least Sayaka has development in Rebellion. I always find it odd so many people cosplay madoka though she does have an adorable outfit.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:29
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jiffypop45 posted:Madoka isn't a particularly likable character in my opinion. At least Sayaka has development in Rebellion. I always find it odd so many people cosplay madoka though she does have an adorable outfit. The biggest problem with Madoka is that she doesn't actually learn anything in the series and has no real development. She learns the truth about Magical Girls but continues to perpetuate the system. Her wish is predicated on Magical Girls being a force for good when they're not. Everything in the series is designed to tear down this notion of wish fulfillment, yet it ends with a solution based in wish fulfillment. This is why Rebellion exists the way it does, it is bringing Madoka back to what it was for most of the series. I'm really hoping that Madoka's ideology is fully challenged at some point, and her character is completely broken down ala Kiritsugu.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:43
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my thoughts on Madoka is playing her must have been really grueling for the actress because after a point like 90% of her lines are just absolute anguish and desperation
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Aug 5, 2015 20:32
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epitasis posted:my thoughts on Madoka is playing her must have been really grueling for the actress because after a point like 90% of her lines are just absolute anguish and desperation You should listen to the English VA. If you last longer than 5 minutes you're doing better than me.
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Aug 5, 2015 20:34
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epitasis posted:my thoughts on Madoka is playing her must have been really grueling for the actress because after a point like 90% of her lines are just absolute anguish and desperation Nobody told Kyubey's voice actress anything about the role besides he was a cute animal companion.
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Aug 5, 2015 20:36
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Just watched episode 7. This as here I gave up on the show last time I tried to watch it. Kyoko's backstory being a watered don version of Kamen Rider Ouja's, except that she kill her family in a fire, I was just like, "nope, I'm out" In retrospect that wasn't very fair. The story is basically the same and the characters are all based off Ryuki characters, but it's clear Madoka is doing it's own thing with it. Also, lol at the green hair gril swooping in on violin boy. Sorry your messed up crush didn't work out, Sayaka.
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Aug 5, 2015 20:55
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So... this showed up on my dashboard today. Madoka is not very perceptive.
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Aug 5, 2015 21:29
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boom boom boom posted:Just watched episode 7. This as here I gave up on the show last time I tried to watch it. Kyoko's backstory being a watered don version of Kamen Rider Ouja's, except that she kill her family in a fire, I was just like, "nope, I'm out" In retrospect that wasn't very fair. The story is basically the same and the characters are all based off Ryuki characters, but it's clear Madoka is doing it's own thing with it. Wait wasn't it a murder-suicide by her dad?
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Aug 5, 2015 21:39
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Blaziken386 posted:So... this showed up on my dashboard today. nice
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Aug 5, 2015 21:40
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Kyubey just wants her to wish for no more Mondays.
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Aug 5, 2015 21:48
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Super Jay Mann posted:Wait wasn't it a murder-suicide by her dad? Explicitly yes. Unless they are trying to imply her actions indirectly caused their murder.
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Aug 5, 2015 21:52
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Super Jay Mann posted:Wait wasn't it a murder-suicide by her dad? Yeah, I meant to say that she didn't kill her family.
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Aug 5, 2015 21:53
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I killed her family
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Aug 5, 2015 22:20
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Lord Justice posted:The biggest problem with Madoka is that she doesn't actually learn anything in the series and has no real development. She learns the truth about Magical Girls but continues to perpetuate the system. Her wish is predicated on Magical Girls being a force for good when they're not. Everything in the series is designed to tear down this notion of wish fulfillment, yet it ends with a solution based in wish fulfillment. This is why Rebellion exists the way it does, it is bringing Madoka back to what it was for most of the series. I'm really hoping that Madoka's ideology is fully challenged at some point, and her character is completely broken down ala Kiritsugu. I think there's some truth to this but fundamentally the series states explicitly via Kyubey that magical girls are responsible for human civilisation and that without them we'd all still be living in caves. If we take this to be true (and Kyubey rarely directly lies) there are strong reasons for preserving the system. In addition, the existence of wraiths in the Madokami and indeed Demon Homura time lines strongly implies that humanity intrinsically generates some form of supernatural evil that preys on people: the form just changes between timelines. Even Demon Homura states that mankind will still be haunted by curses and so Kyubey (and by extension magical girls?) will continue to be necessary in her world, though she seems to imply to Sayaka that the wraiths are a finite threat she can eventually end. The latter part might just mean 'when mankind goes extinct' but it didn't really sound that way. Either way, I think it's reasonable to say that magical girls in some form are necessary to mankind unless some kind of godlike entity can substitute for them- which is, de facto, relying on a magical girl who has taken another form.
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Aug 6, 2015 00:04
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Teens are bad
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Aug 6, 2015 00:08
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All 5 of the teen babes on this show are fundamentally poo poo people
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Aug 6, 2015 00:09
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Namtab posted:All 5 of the teen babes on this show are fundamentally poo poo people 
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Aug 6, 2015 00:10
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Namtab posted:All 5 of the teen babes on this show are fundamentally poo poo people I'm pretty sure that the Homura-Mami gunfight in Rebellion redeems all their sins
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Aug 6, 2015 00:12
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Lestaki posted:I think there's some truth to this but fundamentally the series states explicitly via Kyubey that magical girls are responsible for human civilisation and that without them we'd all still be living in caves. If we take this to be true (and Kyubey rarely directly lies) there are strong reasons for preserving the system. In addition, the existence of wraiths in the Madokami and indeed Demon Homura time lines strongly implies that humanity intrinsically generates some form of supernatural evil that preys on people: the form just changes between timelines. Even Demon Homura states that mankind will still be haunted by curses and so Kyubey (and by extension magical girls?) will continue to be necessary in her world, though she seems to imply to Sayaka that the wraiths are a finite threat she can eventually end. The latter part might just mean 'when mankind goes extinct' but it didn't really sound that way. First, I feel it's necessary to say that what the Incubators say about humanity's progress is conjecture on their part, they don't actually know for sure. From episode 11: "If none of you had ever come to this planet..." "You'd probably still be living in caves." Second, the issue is with the concept of Wraiths themselves and how they operate, which is a fairly large unknown. I have to wonder if they exist not because humanity's despair generates them de facto, but because Magical Girls needed something to fight in Madoka's new world. That they are a consequence of the Magical Girl system and its continued existence in the world. We do know two things, first, that Magical Girls themselves can feed into the creation of Wraiths, as seen in Wraith Arc:  Second, that Madoka's new world still runs on a zero sum principle. From episode 7, when Kyouko is talking to Sayaka: "Miracles aren't free. If you wish for hope, an equal amount of despair is scattered across the world. It all cancels out to zero. That's how the balance of the world is maintained." And from the Incubators in episode 11: "It was not we who betrayed them, but rather their wishes did. No matter what their hopes were, anything that goes beyond reason will without fail cause some sort of distortion. It's only natural that this would end in disaster. If you consider a natural consequence like that to be "betrayal", then their mistake was to make those wishes in the first place." Madoka's wish does not remove this system and is still rooted in it. Homura's betrayal is the consequence of Madoka's own wish, the universe destroying Madoka's wish and resetting it to zero. With the creation of hope, you have the creation of despair. If what the Incubators suggest about the universe is true, then what effect does the distortion of Magical Girls have on the universe? They create the impossible through miracles, but these always have a cost. What if the cost is the Wraiths themselves, an outgrowth of the "hope" generated by Magical Girls in the first place? In other words, a reaction by the universe created by the distortion Magical Girls create. Indeed...I have to wonder, how many Wraiths were created from Hitomi, blaming herself for Sayaka's disappearance or death? Kyousuke, for not realizing how Sayaka felt? Sayaka's parents, over losing their daughter? Every person at this funeral:  How many Wraiths did they create? My larger point here is that I don't believe the system of Magical Girls to be necessary, because it is a distortion that destroys girls and the people around them. The solution was never to maintain the system but to destroy it, all of it, Magical Girls, Incubators, Witches, magic itself. This is where I feel Madoka itself will end up, with Madoka herself coming to terms with her ideology and destroying the system itself. Put another way, adapted from Fate/Zero: "Magical Girls cannot save the world. They call certain methods of fighting good and others evil, acting as if there was nobility to their idealism. Such illusions, perpetrated by Magical Girls throughout history, have led countless young women to their bloody and despairing deaths, all for the sake of this idea of justice and righteousness. Their fight is hell itself. There is no hope for them. It has nothing but unspeakable despair. Yet Magical Girls have never recognized this truth. And the reason for that is, in every era, a dazzling Goddess has blinded them with her legend and prevented them from seeing the evil of what Magical Girls really represent." Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Aug 6, 2015 |
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Aug 6, 2015 00:55
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Lord Justice posted:First, I feel it's necessary to say that what the Incubators say about humanity's progress is conjecture on their part, they don't actually know for sure. From episode 11: Frankly, this is pretty weak. I've been over that scene to confirm and Kyubey is explicit that the sacrifice of magical girls helped mankind progress throughout history and acted as a foundation for the modern age. Even though Kyubey is ultimately speculating at the very end, his narrative role is to define the rules of the setting for the audience, something you're relying on pretty heavily to make your arguments about the wraiths and about wishes. When he's outright wrong about something, it's because Madoka or Homura have exceeded his expectations. I'd say the balance of probability is that he's being accurate when he says that, but even if you disagree with me, there's very little in the text that tends against that point of view. I'm not convinced that Kyouko is much of an authority, but she does serve to reinforce Kyubey's point, and he is much more of an authority. Your points on wraiths are interesting but frankly I don't think they amount to much more than speculation, akin to my pet theory that Homura's time travelling empowered Walpurgis Night. I can as easily argue that Homura is right to observe at the end of the series that Wraiths are the new manifestation of the 'curses of the world', and it's trivial to observe that human evil is not limited to teenage girls with transformation sequences. So at this point what we're really arguing about is what we think is thematically interesting. Personally, I think it would be altogether too pat if all the supernatural problems in the setting derive directly from the existence of magical girls. That ultimately makes the setting solvable, and I think it's important that a perfect world (in the narrow sense of eliminating all supernatural struggles) is unobtainable. Madoka and Homura attempt systemic change for different reasons and in different ways, but both of them can only do so much and both of them make sacrifices of themselves and of others to achieve this. Ultimately, I think a story of overthrowing an evil system outright is boring. I'm far more interested in stories about people struggling to make incremental improvements to a necessary but destructive monolith. The Grail War is objectively unnecessary; it remains to be seen whether magical girls are similarly unnecessary in Madoka. On that note, I am very suspicious of drawing thematic parallels between Fate Zero and Madoka. They both examine idealism but they end quite differently; the grail is inherently tainted and so never could cause good, but wishes in Madoka tend to complete neutrality. Even if they create as many distortions as miracles, I'd argue that ill-judged wishes can still tend to evil, and more purposeful wishes can tend to good in a way that just isn't true in Fate Zero. Ultimately, I think that Madoka's wish was not futile and created a measurable improvement in the world- something Homura preserved in her new world. I don't see Homura's betrayal as a cosmic inevitability but as something far more interesting: an overwhelming eruption of her selfish but deeply felt personal feelings that Madoka downplayed, and ultimately a rejection of Madoka's sacrifice. If Madoka is wrong (I'm in two minds about this) I think it's because her self-sacrifice hurts her and the people who care about her, not because of her idealism as such. Homura had a great quote about this in season one but I can't quite remember it. Found it. Approximately: 'There are people who would mourn if you were gone. Why don't you understand? What about everyone who is trying to protect you?' Looking back now, that serves as a pithy summary of the frustrations that led Homura to the end of Rebellion. Lestaki fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Aug 6, 2015 |
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Aug 6, 2015 01:33
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Lord Justice posted:First, I feel it's necessary to say that what the Incubators say about humanity's progress is conjecture on their part, they don't actually know for sure. From episode 11: 
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Aug 6, 2015 02:12
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