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anilEhilated posted:You know, I have a lot of issues with Skin Game, but Butters isn't it. He's acting exactly as you'd expect him to after the events of Ghost Story and Cold Days. Well, about that last bit...
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Aug 5, 2015 12:21
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anilEhilated posted:You know, I have a lot of issues with Skin Game, but Butters isn't it. He's acting exactly as you'd expect him to after the events of Ghost Story and Cold Days. Large parts of what's wrong with Ascher have to do with Jim Butcher, however. He apparently wanted his lead to have one more book's worth of being a creeper before he gets tied down with a relationship.
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Aug 5, 2015 12:32
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Mars4523 posted:Large parts of what's wrong with Ascher have to do with Jim Butcher, however. He apparently wanted his lead to have one more book's worth of being a creeper before he gets tied down with a relationship. Hah, jokes on you if you think he's done with the male gaze bullshit, whether or not Harry's in a stable relationship. It's always been there, it's always gonna be there. Here's a fun game, list a single female villain in all of Butcher's work that wasn't a femme fatale. I guess maybe Kumori? For all ten seconds of screen time she's had. And maybe there's one in somewhere in the comics? I haven't read them. Point is that evil ladies in Butcher-land come in two flavors, dangerous and sexy or mysterious and sexy. Hannah Ascher was just a particularly lazy nadir of a common trend in his work.
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Aug 5, 2015 13:09
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Skippy McPants posted:Hah, jokes on you if you think he's done with the male gaze bullshit, whether or not Harry's in a stable relationship. It's always been there, it's always gonna be there. Here's a fun game, list a single female villain in all of Butcher's work that wasn't a femme fatale.
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Aug 5, 2015 14:11
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Tunicate posted:Mavra
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Aug 5, 2015 14:15
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Tunicate posted:Mavra The female Eeb was weird looking, I think. The half troll changeling in Summer Knight started as an antagonist. Dunno if that counts.
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Aug 5, 2015 14:16
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Corpsetaker.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:02
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Mars4523 posted:So, you can be dangerous and sexy, mysterious and sexy, or a literal desiccated corpse. Options! I'm not saying they literally don't exist—I already pointed out Kumori—just that they are the rare, rare exception. ConfusedUs posted:The female Eeb was weird looking, I think. Esmerelda Eebs was described as being outwardly attractive and defiantly fell under the 'creepy sexy' heading. Remember when she crawled into Harry's lap and was getting all NC-17 when trying to decide if she and Esteban should eat him? Troll was clearly set up for a Heel-Face turn, so I wouldn't count that.
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Aug 5, 2015 15:04
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It's a problem with Urban Fantasy in general but yeah, Butcher is particularly bad about not having a character who can't be described as "Harry wants to bang her."
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Aug 5, 2015 15:08
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Aren't the half-troll and one of the Ordo Lebes witches basically the only female characters to not be described as hot? And Murphy and maybe Elaine are the only ones who are merely pretty rather than supermodel gorgeous. Regarding Dark Ascension, Fort's solution wasn't nearly as dumb or softhearted as it's made out to be. Vampire supremacy has been a paper tiger for the past 50 years, since vampires may be incredibly strong and fast but they are not even close to bulletproof. The Kitsune alone have enough raw power to take out all of the Scotts, while the werebears probably stand a fighting chance, and anyone who could get their hands on enough resources for some modern weaponry could attack during day and tear the Scotts apart. They wouldn't move unless they were truly desperate (especially since these groups would be losing large numbers of family and close friends), but Prudence's genocidal tendencies would certainly have done wonders in pushing the other supernatural communities towards desperation. The vampires simply don't have the numbers to alienate everybody else, especially when they band together (which they did), and they can't replenish their numbers at all. There are definitely some pacing issues with the book. Its certainly not the best one, but I thought it still was decent. Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 15:18
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Khizan posted:Corpsetaker. Mother Winter.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:11
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Wade Wilson posted:Mother Winter. Not a villain. Not nice, but not exactly evil.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:18
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Skippy McPants posted:Not a villain. Not nice, but not exactly evil. Also working against the Outsiders does not mean "not a villain".
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Aug 5, 2015 16:29
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Skippy McPants posted:Not a villain. Not nice, but not exactly evil. I dunno man, people came up with a lot of examples to counter your argument. Are we about to kick off the "Is Dresden files full of misogyny" argument again?
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Aug 5, 2015 16:33
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Apparently. Skin Game is actually better about it than many of the earlier offerings but the meme has started anyway.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:06
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Rygar201 posted:Apparently. Skin Game is actually better about it than many of the earlier offerings but the meme has started anyway.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:10
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Mars4523 posted:No, Hannah Ascher is actually pretty awful. No, Hannah Ascher is actually pretty okay and the twist was interesting. Once she goes into full evil mode she has some really dumb reasons to go after dresden.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:29
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Mars4523 posted:No, Hannah Ascher is actually pretty awful. I don't remember Ascher being as bad as Shiela, but maybe that just because Dead Beat was the most recent book I've listened to.
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Aug 5, 2015 17:45
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The Fool posted:I don't remember Ascher being as bad as Shiela, but maybe that just because Dead Beat was the most recent book I've listened to.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:00
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Hannah Ascher is a weird place to argue because she's Lashel, a literal seductress specifically targeting Harry Dresden. So she kind of has to be weird and uncomfortable. That doesn't really excuse the scene where she has to undress in front of everyone to complete her challenge though.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:04
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I thought Ascher was a cool and interesting character (and notably one of the few women in the entire series to offer even a token objection to Harry ogling her) right up until the Lasciel reveal. And even then, I think the problem was more with Lasciel being reduced to a WHY DON'T YOU LOVE MEEEEEEE SCORNED WOMAN SMASH caricature than with anything to do with Ascher. It didn't really fit with the way Lasciel had been described in the series up to that point, and certainly didn't square with what we saw of her as Lash. Though the reason Ascher turned warlock being that she was a rape victim because, broadly, That's What Happens To Women wasn't exactly Butcher's finest hour, I guess. And yeah, the way the narrative treated her was kind of creepy at times. But I still thought she was a good character.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:06
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Exmond posted:I dunno man, people came up with a lot of examples to counter your argument. Are we about to kick off the "Is Dresden files full of misogyny" argument again? Even I gave an example, and I said in a later post that I wasn't speaking in absolutes. From that point on I was just going along with the carefree pedantics because this is the internet and that's how one rolls. But anyhoo, yeah Dresden files is full of misogyny. It's not even an argument so much as an empirical fact, and hey I still like the books, but it's important to be critical of media. Even the media you enjoy, hell, I would argue especially the media you enjoy. That said, based on this post: Exmond posted:No, Hannah Ascher is actually pretty okay and the twist was interesting. Once she goes into full evil mode she has some really dumb reasons to go after dresden. I'm not sure that we're going to see eye to eye here, but in Hannah Ascher case: Evil sexpot with (attempted)rape as her backstory is not 'pretty okay'.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:10
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docbeard posted:Though the reason Ascher turned warlock being that she was a rape victim because, broadly, That's What Happens To Women wasn't exactly Butcher's finest hour, I guess. And yeah, the way the narrative treated her was kind of creepy at times. But I still thought she was a good character. This is sort of the crux of the issue though, if just you stripped out all the creep-hattery she'd be an all right character, because Jim Butcher is actually a decent writer and understand stuff like characterization and dialogue. But because he's Jim Butcher he doesn't seem to be capable of writing about lady characters without a certain amount of unfortunate baggage. And the "It's just Dresden's character" thing doesn't fly, because there's no shortage of it in Codex Alera as well. It's frustrating, because if he was a complete hack writing two-dee bimbos then it'd be easy enough to just chuck the books away and forget he ever existed. But because he's got some talent and spent a lot of time honing his craft he's able to turn out stuff you want to read, only you can't without noticing the bits where he falls short. And it niggles at you because you look at the quality of is work and it seems like he ought to be capable of doing it better.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:18
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ImpAtom posted:Hannah Ascher is a weird place to argue because she's Lashel, a literal seductress specifically targeting Harry Dresden. So she kind of has to be weird and uncomfortable. That doesn't really excuse the scene where she has to undress in front of everyone to complete her challenge though. Did Harry disrobe for his task or was Ascher stripping down so he could go "Why yes, she is attractive!" just some bullshit? I'd rather not reopen the book to find out.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:21
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To be fair, Harry's task didn't involve fire. Still a pretty stupid scene.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:29
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Mars4523 posted:Lasciel is pretty terrible in this book, though, with all of the woman scored bullshit. And yeah, that still sounds like more hollow excuses for Butcher to justify having a sexy sexpot for Harry to ogle again, and again, and again, and again. Harry stripped, but it was actually even better than that. Harry disrobed for the the fire gate, and then the entire party did as well to follow him, but then they all get dressed because why wander around naked? Only Ascher strips down again to show up for the final confrontations stark loving naked for absolutely no reason. Like, in one scene she's fully clothed and hanging back, then in the next she shimmies out au naturale to reveal herself as Lasciel. I guess because she hopes nipples will distract Dresden enough to make him gently caress up? I dunno, it's just bad. This is also the state she's in when we get her "I only became a badguy cause some dudes tried to rape me" exposition. It's just... it's bad man, real bad. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 18:32
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Mars4523 posted:Lasciel is pretty terrible in this book, though, with all of the woman scored bullshit. And yeah, that still sounds like more hollow excuses for Butcher to justify having a sexy sexpot for Harry to ogle again, and again, and again, and again. She disrobes because otherwise the fire in the gate of fire would burn all of her clothes off or some such. So pretty much "just some bullshit" in a series with magic. Edit: little late on that one. Me and some buddies were taking about how funny it would have been of Harry had actually taken up laciels coin and took that exact form when he went full Denarian
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Aug 5, 2015 18:32
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Thorpe posted:She disrobes because otherwise the fire in the gate of fire would burn all of her clothes off or some such. So pretty much "just some bullshit" in a series with magic. Correct, but she put her clothes back on again afterward, so she strips a second time before showing up in the vault for the final fight.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:34
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Skippy McPants posted:But anyhoo, yeah Dresden files is full of misogyny. It's not even an argument so much as an empirical fact, and hey I still like the books, but it's important to be critical of media. I hope this is sarcasm  . If it isn't we have very different ideas of what is misogyny.I forgot about hannah's Rape back story . I liked hannah before the big twist, everything after the twist was pretty dumb. Edit: So yeah I agree with your assessment of hannah's back story. Exmond fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 18:55
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It's more that people are oversensitive about gender issues these days. I personally find the "it's in Harry's character" angle perfectly believable and acceptable - the Hannah scene really offends me because it's so stupid. But yeah, definitely not what misogyny means.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:00
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An sustained prejudice against women isn't misogyny? Seems like it fits pretty well to me, but whatever, I'm not interested in semantics. Call it latent sexism if it sounds better to you. The point is that Butcher has a problem with the way he writes, and the way he writes about women. Some if it is the character of Harry Dresden, and that's not a problem, but some of it is very clearly the voice of Jim Butcher, author and real person, and that is a problem.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:08
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People keep forgetting Hannah's bit about also getting revenge against Harry for all the people he killed when he annihilated the Red Court, many of whom were the only people that treated her with any sort of compassion, since the Order of St. Giles was also annihilated when the Red Court went up.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:09
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Skippy McPants posted:An sustained prejudice against women isn't misogyny? Seems like it fits pretty well to me, but whatever, I'm not interested in semantics. Call it latent sexism if it sounds better to you. Pandering to a particular audience, whether it's making women hot or dudes hot, isn't sexism or misogyny. It's just pandering to an audience and the world is better place when everyone has their own books that pander to them. Pull the stick out of your rear end.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:15
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Wade Wilson posted:People keep forgetting Hannah's bit about also getting revenge against Harry for all the people he killed when he annihilated the Red Court, many of whom were the only people that treated her with any sort of compassion, since the Order of St. Giles was also annihilated when the Red Court went up. Nah, I didn't forget. That was good poo poo. Like, Hannah was a complete, well rounded character. That's what makes it suck so much. If you only just tone down the general creepy-eyes from Harry a bit, and hack off the parts at the end where she shows up for the boss fight minus her pants and reveals that attempted rape was the defining moment in her life... Then everything would have been fine, good character boom-done. But because that stuff is there it spoils whole thing like a turd on top of an awesome ice-cream sunday.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:19
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Megazver posted:Pandering to a particular audience, whether it's making women hot or dudes hot, isn't sexism or misogyny. It's just pandering to an audience and the world is better place when everyone has their own books that pander to them. Pull the stick out of your rear end. ... Yes it is. If you are pandering to an audience by doing something sexist or racist or homophobic or whatever that doesn't make it not that. "I'm just pandering" is an excuse that has worked for nobody ever
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Aug 5, 2015 19:24
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Megazver posted:Pandering to a particular audience, whether it's making women hot or dudes hot, isn't sexism or misogyny. It's just pandering to an audience and the world is better place when everyone has their own books that pander to them. Pull the stick out of your rear end. I don't mind some fan service, but there's a line between that and abject exploitation, one that DF has crossed over a few too many times to just be totally harmless fun. I'm not saying you have to hate the books, or send Jimmy B scathing hate mail. I'm just saying that it's there, and that as a critical reader you'd have to be obtuse not to notice it. Also, gently caress off. I like the stick up my rear end and I'm arguing in good faith, if you don't have a point to engage with then save the personal attacks and just don't post.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:25
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ImpAtom posted:... Yes it is. If you are pandering to an audience by doing something sexist or racist or homophobic or whatever that doesn't make it not that. "I'm just pandering" is an excuse that has worked for nobody ever But he's not, usually. "Everyone's sexy", oh no.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:27
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Skippy McPants posted:An sustained prejudice against women isn't misogyny? Seems like it fits pretty well to me, but whatever, I'm not interested in semantics. Call it latent sexism if it sounds better to you. I like latent sexism better than misogyny. Ill be honest that his writing doesn't bother me, but I can see how the way he writes women can annoy others. I don't think its an EMPIRICAL FACT that dresden files is filled with misogyny though and will object against statements like that. I haven't read his Pokemon meets Zerg Calderon series. Does its female representation suffer from the same problems as the dresden files?
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Aug 5, 2015 19:28
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Megazver posted:But he's not, usually. "Everyone's sexy", oh no. "Everyone's sexy" vs "long lingering descriptions of a teenager's nipples" are kind of different things. It's more the latter that I think people are complaining about. I don't really have a core problem with 'supernatural beings are unnaturally attractive" but I do get annoyed when there is more description time given to their breasts than certain other characters get period. (Even if it makes sense for Harry as a character.) Exmond posted:I haven't read his Pokemon meets Zerg Calderon series. Does its female representation suffer from the same problems as the dresden files? Yes and no. It isn't quite as bad but it has its moments, mostly involving the fact that a certain kind of NotPokemon has literal "rape/puts you into heat" powers. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 19:31
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Exmond posted:I like latent sexism better than misogyny. Ill be honest that his writing doesn't bother me, but I can see how the way he writes women can annoy others. I don't think its an EMPIRICAL FACT that dresden files is filled with misogyny though and will object against statements like that. Fair enough, if the softer langue suits you that's fine, I'm just trying to get across that it's an issue. It doesn't bother me most of the time either, after the seventh or eight rendition of "tips of her breasts," you just sorta gloss over most of it. But sometimes it's something blatant enough that it really sticks in my craw and drags down my enjoyment of the book. Hannah Ascher is the most recent instance, but Harry constantly fantasizing about how great it'd be to rape all his female acquaintances or the ludicrous dissertation on "here's what Harry thinks of gay dudes," both in Cold Days, jump out in my mind as other egregious examples. Re. Codex Alera: It's a little less pronounced, because as has been pointed out some of the stuff in DF is deliberately inserted for the sake of Harry's unique perspective, but it is there. Things like the primary female love interested being a (sometimes literally) naked savage, or the bit where every single woman in the setting is either young or has magical powers that allow her to look like she's 25 at the oldest. There's a fair number of grizzled or elderly'ish dudes but, and maybe I'm forgotting someone here(?), I don't think there is a single non-gorgeous female character with a spoken line of dialogue. Even the alien borg/zerg hive queen that leads the final evil horde looks like a sexy lady because she stole the female love interest's DNA. There's also a thing with slave collars that are able to control your emotions and make you want to be raped. That's not portrayed as a good thing mind you, and there's also a whole cavalcade of dudes stuck in the things who've been trained into unrelenting assassins because pain just causes them of get off, but there's still some bits involving the female cast that are, for lack of a better term, uncomfortably rapey. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 19:43
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