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lfield posted:Adamantly refusing to see the whole picture is a good debate trick. Like crying racism because its a white cop and black driver? I can do this too!!
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Aug 5, 2015 18:39
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lfield posted:Adamantly refusing to see the whole picture is a good debate trick. Lawyers and cops love him!
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Aug 5, 2015 18:39
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Randbrick posted:...why does it matter? Or, wait, you're one of those people who thinks, "You don't mind if I have a look around in your car?" is a polite, friendly invitation from a kind stranger to rearrange your trunk for you. A request you can decline! Just like she could decline to put out the cigarette unless there is a law in Texas saying you have to extinguish smoking items during a traffic stop.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:41
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Genocide Tendency posted:Nope. Still asked her to put out the cigarette. Ordered her to get out of the car. Is this you saying that the order to get out of the car was the point at which he became rude and violated department policy, or was this still a lawful order that he shouldn't be criticized for and the chief was talking about something else. Be specific. I want to know the exact instant he violated policy and his actions became rude and unprofessional. Because you have convinced me that It Matters.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:41
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Genocide Tendency posted:Like crying racism because [FILL THIS IN WITH poo poo OTHER PEOPLE ACTUALLY ARGUED TO YOU IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE AN ANNOYING PRICK]? quote:A request you can decline!
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Aug 5, 2015 18:42
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VitalSigns posted:Is this you saying that the order to get out of the car was the point at which he became rude and violated department policy, or was this still a lawful order that he shouldn't be criticized for and the chief was talking about something else. Be specific. I actually think he got rude and violated department policy when he tried to remove her with force before a second officer got there. The best way to have handled it after she refused to get out would have been to call a second officer and let them try and deal with her because she was being a belligerent gently caress over getting a ticket for not following traffic laws. But I don't know what their policies are. Which makes a difference.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:45
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Or he could have had her sign the ticket and be on her way. That was always an option.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:45
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Genocide Tendency posted:The best way to have handled it after she refused to get out would have been to call a second officer and let them try and deal with her because she was being a belligerent gently caress over getting a ticket for not following traffic laws. This is false. The traffic violation had already been dealt with, she had gotten her ticket. He order her to put of the cigarette like the power tripping racist baby he is after that. Then, because the black woman said no, then he threw a tantrum, assaulted her, and threw her in jail to die.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:48
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Randbrick posted:You can do...something, I guess? You missed the part were several people actually said it was racism baised on it being a white cop.... You know what.. Here: SedanChair posted:It'll always be unsupported though, won't it? I mean what would do it for you? What would keep you from retreating into the deniability that just because the system is racist and policing is biased, doesn't mean that any single example of a white cop power-tripping a black woman is racist? VitalSigns posted:Yeah but the cop's actions do, and he was acting like your textbook bigot out to put a black woman in her place for not groveling enough. quote:And if you are placed under arrest and ordered out of your car for denying that "request," then what do we have...? You don't understand search and seizure laws.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:51
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Radbot posted:Yes, thanks for getting my point. That being that cops are the only people that can order people to stop smoking and keep their jobs, besides maybe bouncers in states where indoor smoking is banned. Or literally anyone who has the authority to set the smoking policy in an establishment?
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Aug 5, 2015 18:52
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Genocide Tendency posted:I actually think he got rude and violated department policy when he tried to remove her with force before a second officer got there. Why not just give her the ticket he'd already written and let her sign it. That's the penalty for not signaling right, a ticket? If she ripped up the citation or refused to promise to appear then I can understand taking her in, but not over...refusing to put out a cigarette who cares if she smokes. Being testy with a cop isn't a crime or a threat so I don't see why that necessitated ordering her out of the car when he already had the ticket for her actual offense written and could conclude the stop at any time by handing it to her. Seems like that's the quickest way to deescalate the situation to me.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:52
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Genocide Tendency posted:....she was being a belligerent gently caress over getting a ticket for not following traffic laws....
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Aug 5, 2015 18:52
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Genocide Tendency posted:I actually think he got rude and violated department policy when he tried to remove her with force before Before? How about "at all?" She didn't want to be there. She wasn't violent or aggressive. She was just irritated. He could have just gave her the ticket and sent her on her way. He escalated the situation because he didn't like her attitude. If you're dealing with the general public you're gonna come across some lovely attitudes sometimes, cops should be professional and above reacting to that sort of thing.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:53
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Jarmak posted:Or literally anyone who has the authority to set the smoking policy in an establishment? Who has the authority to set smoking policy in privately owned vehicles on public highways? Was this cop the combined life force of the Texas legislature and the Governor?
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Aug 5, 2015 18:53
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Genocide Tendency posted:You don't understand search and seizure laws. I'll be here. Unlike Ms. Bland, I have not yet been put in my place.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:56
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Genocide Tendency posted:You missed the part were several people actually said it was racism baised on it being a white cop.... Generally when someone says something like this, one of the quotes should actually contain the assertion that it was racism based on it being a white cop. None of those quotes even mentioned the cop being white.
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Aug 5, 2015 18:57
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Live Coverage of the trial of Carlos Riley, who is the cousin of Boots Riley from The Coup, as he says: My cousin, Carlos Riley Jr., is on trial in Durham, NC. A cop stopped him in his car, threatened to kill him, but shot himself in the leg while drawing his weapon. Carlos took the gun- so as not to be shot in the back- and ran. The cop is claiming that it was Carlos who shot him in the thigh with the cops gun. http://abc11.com/news/trial-continues-for-man-accused-of-shooting-officer-/904192/
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Aug 5, 2015 18:57
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VitalSigns posted:Why not just give her the ticket he'd already written and let her sign it. That's the penalty for not signaling right, a ticket? If she ripped up the citation or refused to promise to appear then I can understand taking her in, but not over...refusing to put out a cigarette who cares if she smokes. It is policy in my town for an officer to explain to someone how to handle the ticket, and their rights regarding it. If he was trying to do that and the smoke was bothering him, you are telling me its unreasonable to ask her to put it out? And if that department/HP unit has the same policy then he absolutely should have told her to wait, and called a second officer to explain how to handle the ticket, and her rights regarding it, since she was being belligerent. Randbrick posted:Given the freewheeling ease you have to defame the dead, I don't know how on earth you also find the temerity to pretend to be Ms. Manners. Suicide is a terrible thing. Mental health issues like depression need to be addressed better. But that doesn't mean someone who committed suicide is incapable of being called belligerent when they got lovely with a cop during a traffic spot! Separate the two? Well I never..
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Aug 5, 2015 19:00
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VitalSigns posted:Who has the authority to set smoking policy in privately owned vehicles on public highways? There is no policy, anyone can ask anyone else to put out their their ciggerette and/or get pissed if someone else is smoking around them. The reason a cashier at a drive through can't do this is because they are on private property and the owner has set a policy that they can't do this. This really isn't loving hard
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Aug 5, 2015 19:02
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Genocide Tendency posted:Suicide is a terrible thing. Mental health issues like depression need to be addressed better. But that doesn't mean someone who committed suicide is incapable of being called belligerent when they got lovely with a cop during a traffic spot! As it stands, you are reinventing facts, spinning nonsense, pretending to legal knowledge you clearly do not have, and...really just being an rear end. You are doing so in an apparent effort to insult a dead woman on false terms. That's a very weird thing to be about, even on a Wednesday.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:03
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Genocide Tendency posted:It is policy in my town for an officer to explain to someone how to handle the ticket, and their rights regarding it. If he was trying to do that and the smoke was bothering him, you are telling me its unreasonable to ask her to put it out? If the smoke was bothering him, why did he wait until he was all done explaining and was about to hand her a warning before ordering her to put out her cig? If he'd asked at the beginning of the stop your non-factually-based-what-if-scenario might make more sense.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:04
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Randbrick posted:. It would still be utterly bizarre and a touch perverse that you'd feel such a motivation to argue over the milquetoast "bad" behavior of a woman who just DIED, sure, but there might be some element of correctness in your unnecessary and strange insistence on questioning her behavior. But you see any minor infraction a black person commits instantly means that they deserve to die.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:04
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Genocide Tendency posted:It is policy in my town for an officer to explain to someone how to handle the ticket, and their rights regarding it. If he was trying to do that and the smoke was bothering him, you are telling me its unreasonable to ask her to put it out? No, but he didn't do that. He ordered her to put it out. It doesn't matter that he said please and phrased it as a question. If the penalty for refusal is an escalation to violence and an arrest, it's not really a question, is it.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:04
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Randbrick posted:As it stands, you are reinventing facts, spinning nonsense, pretending to legal knowledge you clearly do not have, and...really just being an rear end. You are doing so in an apparent effort to insult a dead woman on false terms. And pretty much every cop and lawyer in this thread is in agreement with him, weird...
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Aug 5, 2015 19:05
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Jarmak posted:There is no policy, anyone can ask anyone else to put out their their ciggerette and/or get pissed if someone else is smoking around them. The reason a cashier at a drive through can't do this is because they are on private property and the owner has set a policy that they can't do this. Yeah but I don't have the right to abuse my authority to punish someone for not putting out a cigarette when I ask, and whether I am pissed or not is not an excuse for acting unprofessionally at my job, and the DPS Chief agrees since he describes the officer's behavior as having "violated department policy, behaved rudely and failed to de-escalate a confrontational situation that ended in Ms. Bland’s arrest", but keep on ignoring the actual official statement of the DPS chief and insisting that he was just being Officer Friendly making polite requests like a kindly old gent!
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Aug 5, 2015 19:07
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but I don't have the right to abuse my authority to punish someone for not putting out a cigarette when I ask, and whether I am pissed or not is not an excuse for acting unprofessionally at my job, and the DPS Chief agrees since he describes the officer's behavior as having "violated department policy, behaved rudely and failed to de-escalate a confrontational situation that ended in Ms. Bland’s arrest", but keep on ignoring the actual official statement of the DPS chief and insisting that he was just being Officer Friendly making polite requests like a kindly old gent! In his world being kind is not murdering you if you don't comply.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:08
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lfield posted:It doesn't matter that he said please and phrased it as a question. If the penalty for refusal is an escalation to violence and an arrest, it's not really a question, is it. I believe the answer to this is that it was technically not a crime for him to order her out of the vehicle therefore we shouldn't question whether it was an appropriate response to a woman smoking a cigarette, of course the fact that smoking a cigarette is completely legal too is of no importance because she ought to have exercised discretion.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:10
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ElCondemn posted:And pretty much every cop and lawyer in this thread is in agreement with him, weird... Sure and the Texas Commission on Jail Standards found the jail out of compliance with rules relating to suicide training and checking on people and Texas Department of Public Safety has determined that the stop was done incorrectly. So we can just all agree that neither the trooper nor the jailers acted correctly. I don't think we'll ever agree on motive.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:10
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Randbrick posted:If she had indeed been belligerent or out of line by any normal person definition of how citizens have the right to behave in this, their country, you might have a thing. It would still be utterly bizarre and a touch perverse that you'd feel such a motivation to argue over the milquetoast "bad" behavior of a woman who just DIED, sure, but there might be some element of correctness in your unnecessary and strange insistence on questioning her behavior. Because someone "just DIED" doesn't excuse their behavior of being lovely to a cop because they got pulled over. Trabisnikof posted:If the smoke was bothering him, why did he wait until he was all done explaining and was about to hand her a warning before ordering her to put out her cig? lfield posted:No, but he didn't do that. He ordered her to put it out. I like this.. How cool is it to be able to re-write facts, with video evidence, to support your claim and continue to argue a point that is wrong? And not be able to realize that you are wrong? Because again... The cop asked her to put out the cigarette. He ordered her out of the car.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:10
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Randbrick posted:Ok, so you tell me what you got if you place a person under circumstances which would lead a reasonable person of normal intellect and social awareness to believe he or she is not free to leave, and what you got if you do that after a refusal to consent to a search. Then go check out Johnson v Zerbst, and follow the case citations for a while. If you're going to be a prick you should probably cite the right case, that's from Mendenhall
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Aug 5, 2015 19:11
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Genocide Tendency posted:Because again... The cop asked her to put out the cigarette. He ordered her out of the car. Why did he order her out of the car?
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Aug 5, 2015 19:12
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Genocide Tendency posted:Because again... The cop asked her to put out the cigarette. He ordered her out of the car. Lol. So he was being polite and just asking. But if you answered the question in a way he doesn't like, well be prepared to be ordered out of the car! Also you're still ignoring the timing question and the fact the DPS agrees that his behavior was incorrect.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:13
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Genocide Tendency posted:Because again... The cop asked her to put out the cigarette. He ordered her out of the car. He ordered her out of the car ... because she didn't put out her cigarette. They weren't separate incidents.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:14
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Trabisnikof posted:Sure and the Texas Commission on Jail Standards found the jail out of compliance with rules relating to suicide training and checking on people and Texas Department of Public Safety has determined that the stop was done incorrectly. I don't think motive is in question anymore, nobody has tried to say the cop wasn't being racist in a litle while. GT seems to disagree that the stop was done incorrectly he thinks the victim should've groveled before him more to prevent him from going powermad.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:14
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Jarmak posted:If you're going to be a prick you should probably cite the right case, that's from Mendenhall There are dozens of traffic stop arrest cases just at the Supreme Court level, and hundreds to thousands at the state court levels. There is no "right" case. That's why you follow the case citations. quote:Because someone "just DIED" doesn't excuse their behavior of being lovely to a cop because they got pulled over.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:14
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lfield posted:He ordered her out of the car ... because she didn't put out her cigarette. They weren't separate incidents. No, what GT is saying is he ordered her out of the car because she was being an uppity animal who should know to grovel and concede to every request.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:15
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Randbrick posted:Rodriguez is the most recent iteration, particularly in the context of traffic stops, unreasonable delays not incident to traffic stops, and false arrest in the context of traffic stops. You cited a 1938 case about right to counsel edit: Also I think Mendenhall is appropriate to look at here since what people are arguing is whether the request was an "order", which that case addresses more directly.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:16
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Jarmak posted:You cited a 1938 case about right to counsel ???? There are actually at least three dozen people named Rodriguez in the territorial United States. At least four have been known to be in court at some point.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:17
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Randbrick posted:http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-9972_p8k0.pdf Randbrick posted:Ok, so you tell me what you got if you place a person under circumstances which would lead a reasonable person of normal intellect and social awareness to believe he or she is not free to leave, and what you got if you do that after a refusal to consent to a search. Then go check out Johnson v Zerbst, and follow the case citations for a while. https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/304/458
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Aug 5, 2015 19:18
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Randbrick posted:http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-9972_p8k0.pdf Randbrick posted:Then go check out Johnson v Zerbst, and follow the case citations for a while.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:18
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