Lestaki posted:

Frankly, this is pretty weak. I've been over that scene to confirm and Kyubey is explicit that the sacrifice of magical girls helped mankind progress throughout history and acted as a foundation for the modern age. Even though Kyubey is ultimately speculating at the very end, his narrative role is to define the rules of the setting for the audience, something you're relying on pretty heavily to make your arguments about the wraiths and about wishes. When he's outright wrong about something, it's because Madoka or Homura have exceeded his expectations. I'd say the balance of probability is that he's being accurate when he says that, but even if you disagree with me, there's very little in the text that tends against that point of view.

Lestaki posted:

I'm not convinced that Kyouko is much of an authority, but she does serve to reinforce Kyubey's point, and he is much more of an authority. Your points on wraiths are interesting but frankly I don't think they amount to much more than speculation, akin to my pet theory that Homura's time travelling empowered Walpurgis Night. I can as easily argue that Homura is right to observe at the end of the series that Wraiths are the new manifestation of the 'curses of the world', and it's trivial to observe that human evil is not limited to teenage girls with transformation sequences. So at this point what we're really arguing about is what we think is thematically interesting. Personally, I think it would be altogether too pat if all the supernatural problems in the setting derive directly from the existence of magical girls. That ultimately makes the setting solvable, and I think it's important that a perfect world (in the narrow sense of eliminating all supernatural struggles) is unobtainable. Madoka and Homura attempt systemic change for different reasons and in different ways, but both of them can only do so much and both of them make sacrifices of themselves and of others to achieve this. Ultimately, I think a story of overthrowing an evil system outright is boring. I'm far more interested in stories about people struggling to make incremental improvements to a necessary but destructive monolith. The Grail War is objectively unnecessary; it remains to be seen whether magical girls are similarly unnecessary in Madoka.

Lestaki posted:

On that note, I am very suspicious of drawing thematic parallels between Fate Zero and Madoka. They both examine idealism but they end quite differently; the grail is inherently tainted and so never could cause good, but wishes in Madoka tend to complete neutrality. Even if they create as many distortions as miracles, I'd argue that ill-judged wishes can still tend to evil, and more purposeful wishes can tend to good in a way that just isn't true in Fate Zero. Ultimately, I think that Madoka's wish was not futile and created a measurable improvement in the world- something Homura preserved in her new world. I don't see Homura's betrayal as a cosmic inevitability but as something far more interesting: an overwhelming eruption of her selfish but deeply felt personal feelings that Madoka downplayed, and ultimately a rejection of Madoka's sacrifice. If Madoka is wrong (I'm in two minds about this) I think it's because her self-sacrifice hurts her and the people who care about her, not because of her idealism as such. Homura had a great quote about this in season one but I can't quite remember it. .

Command Ant posted:

Lord Justice posted:

I feel that my point wasn't so much about the world as is, but the world as it would be without Magical Girls. The world in Madoka is created by the sacrifices of Magical Girls, this much is true, but would it really be the case that humans would never develop without them? Given the nature of the Incubators and how they view humans (comparing us to livestock), I wouldn't be surprised if their assessment was selling us very short. Ultimately, while it is a critical piece of the puzzle in regards to handling Magical Girls in totality, we don't have a control to draw conclusions from, unless you wanted to include real life which is reaching a bit. As well, I'm more apt to believe their assessment of the universe (being that they appear to be a universal hivemind with access but no control over the universe's "backend", as it were) over their appraisal of humans. To the Incubators, humans are nothing more than a means to gaining energy, and are to be discarded once their use has run its course.

Lord Justice posted:

I find that Fate/Zero and Madoka are companion works, focusing on the same idea, the screed against wish fulfillment, but coming to different conclusions. Fate/Zero ends with the negation of that idealism, as Kiritsugu fails. Madoka goes in the opposite direction as Madoka appears to succeed. What Rebellion then does as a consequence is bring Madoka back to what Fate/Zero described, as Madoka's wish was destroyed, and it seems as though the series is once again on track to reach the ultimate conclusion that Fate/Zero did: Wish fulfillment was always a fool's game.

As for Madoka's wish, I feel it is fairly objectively a "sidegrade" to the original universe. I feel her wish only achieved two things:
One, the immediate problem of Walpurgisnacht and Kriemhild Gretchen, which are admittedly large problems that needed a solution and Madoka did solve them.
Two, taking Magical Girls into the Law of Cycles.
The issue I have with this is, is this really better than turning into a Witch? In both cases it involves a fall into despair, the lives of Magical Girls are unchanged in the new world, Sayaka is still dead. Witches represent a retreat from the world into a fantasy where the Magical Girl no longer has to deal with their despair and can live as they please. It is a dream world, much like the Law of Cycles itself. Madoka didn't really improve the lot of Magical Girls, she just altered their outcome slightly. And while yes, you can argue that Witches killed people, Wraiths most likely do as well, and thus the problem of that supernatural force still exists. At the very least, it appears finite and doesn't look like it'll completely destroy the world this time.

Lestaki posted:

I disagree. Madoka is critical of idealism taken to excess- Sayaka is destroyed by her unbending idealism. But I think it is more broadly critical of people who are misguided for any number of reasons, and idealism is only one aspect of that. In Madoka's universe, it is hard to understand what you really want and what others want of you and it's difficult to reconcile those things with a cruel world. Ultimately, though, I think wishes do too much good for the system to be regarded as pure evil. Mami would have died in a car crash without her wish, and even if her life after that was a hard and lonely one, I certainly don't think she'd be better off dead.

Lestaki posted:

The Law of Cycles is massively superior to the world that came before it. Though it's not always their principle motivation, magical girls can live as protectors of humanity, and that gives them both pride and purpose. Even if we abandon all notion of an afterlife, dying in peace is far better than living on for some time as a man-eating monster that betrays everything they tried to achieve before that point. I'm honestly confused this is even a discussion. And Rebellion clearly shows that some kind of afterlife is possible and it's kind of neat, if you judge by Sayaka, who finally has her ducks in a row and is more comfortable with herself than she ever was in life. It's unlikely a magical girl could achieve that while being trapped in a self-gratifying illusion. You've already admitted that Madoka's wish removed two of the greatest threats known to the setting. And my best guess is that wraiths produce a better environment for magical girls than witches, because they change Kyubey's incentives. Previously, Kyubey directly profited from driving magical girls to despair and acted accordingly. But in the wraith universe, that's no longer possible- all he can do is get magical girls to kill wraiths, a far slower process. My guess is that he cooperated with magical girls, at least until he hatched the plot in Rebellion to return to the previous status quo. It's still not easy being a magical girl, true. And yet it's still far better than it was before, so I don't think Madoka as a text rejects wish fulfillment entirely. A wish well-made can make the world a better place, even if there will be sacrifices and it won't always stick.

Lestaki posted:

Homura's world is a house of cards balanced on the wing of a biplane that's about to crash into a mountain. But with that said, taking a wide view of the setting it improves on Madoka's improved world. Kyubey can no longer threaten the advances made by Madoka's wish or anything else. It's clearly unsustainable, but I'm a sap and want to believe that on the other side of this, Madoka and Homura can muddle through to a better way.

Lord Justice posted:

Mami's wish to "live on", resulted in her being dead by the age of 15. She managed to extend her life by about 2 to 3 years, most of which was defined by crushing loneliness and constant battle, leading up to a horrible death in the series, and suicide in The Different Story. In other words...Her wish made no real difference, making a wish by definition shortens your lifespan massively.

quote:

What wish is really worth that?

Lord Justice posted:

how is the Law of Cycles any better in reality?

Lord Justice posted:

Edit:

Sakurazuka posted:

Hands are hard

andipossess posted:

ZUN knows what this guy's talking about.

Lord Justice posted:

This is why Magical Girls are a toxic force in the world for those who participate in it, as it represents a failure to grow up. It is a girl giving into immediate desires with terrible consequences. In other words, this is why wish fulfillment is a fool's game, as it represents the destruction of the person engaging in it. You claim that a wish well-made is worth it, but is it if the cost of such a wish is a young girl's life? What wish is really worth that?

Lord Justice posted:

I'd honestly rather see it go the other way, with Madoka's hand being forced into destroying Homura, or attempting to. I'm of two minds whether I want Homura to survive Post-Rebellion or not.

Namtab posted:

Ultimately please remember that Lord justices views are through the lens of his waifu homura, and he is presenting a view which paints homura in the best light

Space Flower posted:

Sakurazuka posted:

Hands are hard

Lord Justice posted:

Lestaki posted:

Lestaki posted:

However much you weasel around it, I think Mami being alive is better than Mami being dead.

Lestaki posted:

This is where our previous divergences become critical. From my perspective, magical girls (or Homura running around murdering wraiths with demon powers) are strictly necessary for the creation of civilisation as it exists in Madoka and the continued survival of mankind without excessive supernatural predation. From that perspective, magical girls are necessary, even if a life of battle is a tragic thing. Even then, it's not as if magical girls are fated by definition to be miserable and die young. Depending on their ability, allies, and circumstances, they can make it by- Kyouko in the series definitely seemed to be doing fine until she made her suicidal attempt to save Sayaka. Saying they're fated to die before 20 is an assumption without a huge amount of basis in the text- ultimately we just don't know enough about the Law of Cycles world to judge how difficult it is to fight wraiths.

Lestaki posted:

I think the symbolism at the ending of Rebellion cuts against this. Homura sits alone at a table for two, then dances under a half moon next to a single chair. The duality is incomplete because Madoka has been dehumanised, but you don't complete a duality by destroying the other half.

Namtab posted:

Ultimately please remember that Lord justices views are through the lens of his waifu homura, and he is presenting a view which paints homura in the best light

Lord Justice posted:

Here we see the colour motif repeated again in the background, with a new colour, yellow. It pushes against the green, with the red mixed into it. It represents the concept of the Morning in and of itself, displacing the Dream. Since Homura's morning is defined by her Desire, it is mixed in with the red, and finally: The Red Morning itself, as the background frames Homura with red and yellow as she wakes up and sees her morning.

trucutru posted:

Since Mami would have died if she didn't become a magical girl, and since she did save people and eliminate some witches without becoming one, then her wish had worth and had a positive outcome, right? A yes/no answer is all I want but you can extend it to a maybe if you wish.

trucutru posted:

Edit: I just realized that Homura (well, her soul, her body is however old she wishes it to be) is also older than 20. So yeah, add her also to the elder ladies list.

Lord Justice posted:

Her wish extended her life and created some good in the world, yes, but that isn't my argument. Whether she dies to a Witch, or via sucide, or in a car crash, she is still dead. This system cannot allow Mami to grow up by definition, she is chained to a life of endless battle that will destroy her sooner rather than later. The minute she made that wish is the minute she destroyed herself.

Lord Justice posted:

Homura doesn't count because she never grew up either, repeating the same month over and over isn't growing up normally, all it did was give her around 24 years of memories but still leaving her as a 14 year old.

Lord Justice posted:

While the sacrifice of those girls may have led to civilization, I don't really put much stock in that sort of utilitarian argument. I don't believe in the destruction of people as an inherent good even if there is good outcomes, and this is essentially why I push against this system the way I do. Speaking on the lifetimes of Magical Girls, there is some text (of rather dubious canonicity, but I feel it holds within context) in the Portable Extra Route that speaks to this. Mami has never even heard a rumour of a Magical Girl older than 20, which suggests that even if they exist (like Roberta), they are exceedingly rare, and most Magical Girls do not make it that long. While Kyouko was getting by, it's also clear she had abandoned any mandate that Magical Girls have to "bring hope", and was just much a predator as any Witch. In a way, Kyouko is even more damning on the system, because to survive as a Magical Girl requires the abandonment of any good the system creates.

quote:

In a way, I feel the Law of Cycles is actively detrimental to the continued existance of Magical Girls...It is a religion founded on death as an inherent good. Consider Mami at the end of Rebellion:


"Are they gone now? Sayaka, and your Bebe too?"
"No. They're finally taking her away with them."
"Is that Kaname Madoka?"
"Yes. The Law of the Cycle, which will one day lead us away too."

quote:

The Law of Cycles is not hope in life, but hope in death, a panacea to the problem of Witches, but but not the destruction of girls through the system of Magical Girls. Mami's reverence is disturbing, because she is exulting her own future martyrdom. While there are good elements to the Law of Cycles and it is a better alternative to Witches in totality, the fact that is founded on the continued destruction of these girls means it is inherently and massively flawed, making that the crux of my argument. At this point, however, it may be better to agree to disagree.

quote:

Rebellion's imagery and musical lyrics do actually suggest that Madoka will destroy Homura, or at least her Dark Orb. The song that plays in that scene is an instrumental of Made dame yo, the song that plays when they're fighting the Nightmare in the prelude. It goes as such:

I dream of the morning
It's not time yet, it's not time yet
What colour will the morning be?
It's not time yet, it's not time yet
The night is still only half-eaten.
Where is the child who slumbers?
So good morning to you, Nightmare!
And the bad dreams will never come again.

"I dream of the morning"

Lord Justice posted:

Her wish extended her life and created some good in the world, yes, but that isn't my argument. Whether she dies to a Witch, or via sucide, or in a car crash, she is still dead. This system cannot allow Mami to grow up by definition, she is chained to a life of endless battle that will destroy her sooner rather than later. The minute she made that wish is the minute she destroyed herself.

Namtab posted:

One day you will be dead. hosed up but true

trucutru posted:

I want to hear your comments about his color theory and how red and blue represent the colors of the morning.