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Namtab posted:While the magical girl system may have led to civilisation, I don't believe that makes it right, I make big internet posts because people dying for the greater good is bad. There's a few things that suggest that most magical girls die before twenty *describes in detail*. Kyouko is bad for the system, because she steals food to live. Man, I really cannot overstate how much I actually appreciate this skimming down of words. The "Law of Cycles" is a much better state than previously, and if you're trying to question the morality of having little girls fight monsters in exchange for civilization, civilization has done a lot more for bettering people's lives than living in caves has.
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Aug 6, 2015 19:58
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Homura is actually thousands of years old
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Aug 6, 2015 20:06
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Lord Justice posted:I find that Fate/Zero and Madoka are companion works, focusing on the same idea, You may as well say that madoka and psycho pass, or madoka and saya no uta are companion works, in that they were written by the same guy, years apart.
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Aug 6, 2015 20:47
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They are exactly the same, except Madoka is Faust and Saya no Uta is Lovecraft.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:00
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Namtab posted:You may as well say that madoka and psycho pass, or madoka and saya no uta are companion works, in that they were written by the same guy, years apart.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:02
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Mordaedil posted:They are exactly the same, except Madoka is Faust and Saya no Uta is Lovecraft. But was lovecraft a paedophile?
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Aug 6, 2015 21:16
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I consider Fate/Zero to be a predecessor/prototype for Madoka, as it approaches similar themes (the problems inherent to idealism, the screed against wish fulfillment), as well as Kiritsugu serving as a literary ancestor for Homura. Urobuchi once described Kiritsugu as a "magical mystery gun man" and much the same can applied to Homura as a "magical mystery gun girl". They also share the same magic of Time Manipulation, and Homura's methods are straight out of Kiritsugu's playbook (hitting Walpurgisnacht with every explosive she can find, for example, compared to Kiritsugu destroying an entire hotel to get one guy). They also share a similar investment in idealism which breaks them down, albeit coming from two different ends (Homura is focused only on Madoka to the detriment of everything else, Kiritsugu is focused on saving the world to the detriment of the people around him). As well, Kiritsugu serves as a companion to Saber in referencing Madoka's own problems with idealism, and serves as an initial opposite to Madoka (destroying wish fulfillment, or attempting to, as opposed to using it to attain a solution), and also a possible clue as to where Madoka will eventually end up.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:18
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In my experience, Urobuchi does good work 3/5 the time, bad work 1/5 of the time, and mediocre work 1/5 of the time. I have seen five things he did.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:25
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Twiddy posted:I find it kind of weird to try and compare Fate/Zero and Madoka rather than the work Fate/Zero is supposed to be compared to, but what do I know. I went ahead and read what Fate/stay night or whatever is about, and fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat In other news, I'm now at episode 18 of Fate/Zero, and I think I have officially lost the will to continue. I cannot believe this show's aptitude at taking cool action setpieces, and destroy the poo poo out of them with awkward cuts, unnecessary dialogue and bad CGI. The story continues to be hella dark and intriguing, and Kiritsugi continues to be  as possible (HOLY poo poo KIRITSUGI YOU ICE-COLD MOTHERFUCKER) - I really like how it's not afraid to have characters fail miserably and die unsatisfied. Lancer's death was GREAT closure for that poor guy, and seeing magic worm guy stumble towards the most obvious gently caress-up in history DOES prove weirdly entertaining. But I just can't stand looking at this show. Hell, even listening to it - that was the quietest giant see monster I've ever witnessed on screen. It was pretty much the "mage duel" (bwahaha) between worm guy and I-Don't-Think-Kirei-Is-Evil-OHNO mage where the cons started outweighing the pros for real. It's one thing to have a fight be a one-sided beatdown, but that was just... two guys standing perfectly still while meaningless special effects fly at each other, and then one goes "nope", there's a bit anguished burning, done. It was ridiculous how cheap and unexciting it looked. When the camera showed Kirei just statically watching, you could basically read his thoughts - "The gently caress am I looking at".I'm not even bothered by the strangely convenient magic elements popping up, which I'm sure long-standing series fans would already know about - it's just what the series does, let's roll with it. And it leads to devious situations like Kayneth's death. (I still don't know why he got that spell, since Lancer did gently caress ALL against Caster's monster...) But at this point, I think I'm better off fast-forwarding through this, reading the wikipedia summary, watch some best-offs for the fight scenes on Youtube and maybe the finale. Yeah. Namtab posted:The RED DESIRE then turns YELLOW, which means the MORNING, because I have pulled a METAPHOR out of my rear end and i am going to RUN WITH IT Never leave this thread, please
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Aug 6, 2015 21:27
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Lord Justice posted:I consider Fate/Zero to be a predecessor/prototype for Madoka, as it approaches similar themes (the problems inherent to idealism, the screed against wish fulfillment), as well as Kiritsugu serving as a literary ancestor for Homura. Urobuchi once described Kiritsugu as a "magical mystery gun man" and much the same can applied to Homura as a "magical mystery gun girl". They also share the same magic of Time Manipulation, and Homura's methods are straight out of Kiritsugu's playbook (hitting Walpurgisnacht with every explosive she can find, for example, compared to Kiritsugu destroying an entire hotel to get one guy). They also share a similar investment in idealism which breaks them down, albeit coming from two different ends (Homura is focused only on Madoka to the detriment of everything else, Kiritsugu is focused on saving the world to the detriment of the people around him). As well, Kiritsugu serves as a companion to Saber in referencing Madoka's own problems with idealism, and serves as an initial opposite to Madoka (destroying wish fulfillment, or attempting to, as opposed to using it to attain a solution), and also a possible clue as to where Madoka will eventually end up. Twiddy posted:I find it kind of weird to try and compare Fate/Zero and Madoka rather than the work Fate/Zero is supposed to be compared to, but what do I know.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:28
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With enough words, any comparison is possible
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Aug 6, 2015 21:40
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Twiddy posted:I find it kind of weird to try and compare Fate/Zero and Madoka rather than the work Fate/Zero is supposed to be compared to, but what do I know. F/Z has nothing in common with its parent other than the premise and setting, so I don't see where the sarcasm comes into play here. Justice embellishes his point, but it is true that Urobuchi took his ideas and emotions from writing Fate/Zero and channeled them into Madoka Magica. "Just like no matter what we do we can't stop the universe from getting colder. It is only a world that is created through a compilation of 'progresses of common sense'; it can never escape the bondage of its physical laws. " "Therefore, in order to write a perfect ending for a story you have to twist the laws of cause and effect, reverse black and white, and even possess a power to move in the opposite direction from the rule of the universe. Only a heavenly and chaste soul that can sing carols of praise towards humanity can save the story." A universe bound by entropy and a physical law of karma... sounds familiar. A protagonist who twists these laws around and rejects the universe, a heavenly soul that fights for humanity? Was that Emiya Shirou? No, I don't think it was.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:52
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Plenty of writers do similar themes across their works but that doesn't make one a prototype of another.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:56
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Space Flower posted:F/Z has nothing in common with its parent other than the premise and setting, so I don't see where the sarcasm comes into play here.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:57
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quote:Urobuchi Gen wants to write stories that can warm people's hearts.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:57
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Space Flower posted:F/Z has nothing in common with its parent other than the premise and setting, so I don't see where the sarcasm comes into play here. This is dumber than most of the posts itt
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Aug 6, 2015 22:02
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Incomplete list of things that are cool: Madoka Fate/Zero Fat/Stay Night
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Aug 6, 2015 22:05
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cheetah7071 posted:In my experience, Urobuchi does good work 3/5 the time, bad work 1/5 of the time, and mediocre work 1/5 of the time. I have seen five things he did. My Urobuchi experience is that I think Madoka was deece and dislike everything else he was involved with. So I think basically, I just really like Shinbo.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:09
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Based on what I watched of Fate/Zero there are definitely some similar themes present but dang, that directing. I don't like it!
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Aug 6, 2015 22:11
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Twiddy posted:I'd say "you can't be serious" but if the internet has taught me anything it's that people can be serious about a lot of things. I'd say F/Z is an Urobuchi story first and TYPE-MOON second rather than the inverse. Is there a problem with that claim? Am I missing the part of F/Z where it focused on a cliche high school boy and his cooking adventures with a house full of girls? Did I forget about the part where the protagonist clashed headlong with his foes and defeated them after a long-winded speed about justice and ideals? 
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Aug 6, 2015 22:22
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Space Flower posted:I'd say F/Z is an Urobuchi story first and TYPE-MOON second rather than the inverse. Is there a problem with that claim? Am I missing the part of F/Z where it focused on a cliche high school boy and his cooking adventures with a house full of girls? Did I forget about the part where the protagonist clashed headlong with his foes and defeated them after a long-winded speed about justice and ideals? None of those things happen in kara no kyoukai
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Aug 6, 2015 22:24
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Namtab posted:None of those things happen in kara no kyoukai Or Tsukihime.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:25
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From now on my gimmick is to make blanket statements, think of things in black and white terms, and ignore madoka canon that does not support kyouka being the best character
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Aug 6, 2015 22:27
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Space Flower posted:I'd say F/Z is an Urobuchi story first and TYPE-MOON second rather than the inverse. Is there a problem with that claim? Am I missing the part of F/Z where it focused on a cliche high school boy and his cooking adventures with a house full of girls? Did I forget about the part where the protagonist clashed headlong with his foes and defeated them after a long-winded speed about justice and ideals?
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Aug 6, 2015 22:28
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Namtab posted:None of those things happen in kara no kyoukai "I find it kind of weird to try and compare Fate/Zero and Madoka rather than the work Fate/Zero is supposed to be compared to" "F/Z has nothing in common with its parent other than the premise and setting" Sorry, I didn't know we were switching goalposts from F/SN to Kara no Kyoukai. I'll try to keep up. cheetah7071 posted:Or Tsukihime. I guess you could say that fate/stay night and kara no kyoukai, or fate/stay night and tsukihime are companion works, in that they were written by the same guy, years apart.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:30
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Space Flower posted:"I find it kind of weird to try and compare Fate/Zero and Madoka rather than the work Fate/Zero is supposed to be compared to" Except your post explicitly called out certain things as being facets of TYPE-MOON works. And then we listed TYPE-MOON works without them.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:32
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Space Flower posted:"I find it kind of weird to try and compare Fate/Zero and Madoka rather than the work Fate/Zero is supposed to be compared to" Space Flower posted:I'd say F/Z is an Urobuchi story first and TYPE-MOON second rather than the inverse. Is there a problem with that claim? Am I missing the part of F/Z where it focused on a cliche high school boy and his cooking adventures with a house full of girls? Did I forget about the part where the protagonist clashed headlong with his foes and defeated them after a long-winded speed about justice and ideals? I was not the one who moved the goalposts
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Aug 6, 2015 22:32
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TYPE-MOON sucks IMO and shouldn't be discussed in the thread for a Good Anime.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:38
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Basically Fate is all about ~ideals~ because it's fundamentally a story about Shirou, and his ideology. The other characters exist to reflect or challenge aspects of that ideology. Fate/Zero continues this trend (because even in F/SN, Kiritsugu was envisioned as a sort of dark mirror to Shirou), but, because Shirou himself isn't around, spends less time explicitly talking about ideals. Non-Fate TYPE-MOON properties don't really have this property at all. The cooking parts of Stay Night owned though and should have been in Zero.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:39
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I watched Fate/Zero and then Madoka without knowing that they shared any sort of pedigree and did not find that there was anything particularly interesting that was shared between the two
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Aug 6, 2015 22:39
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Insurrectionist posted:TYPE-MOON sucks IMO and shouldn't be discussed in the thread for a Good Anime. Good thing they're talking about it in the Madoka thread, then!
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Aug 6, 2015 22:39
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Fate stay night also has the theme of wish fulfilment. Very early on the priest and Shirou's narration point out the negative of shirou's wish to be a hero, which is that for him to be a hero there needs to be a threat for him to fight, so it's not a unique urobachi thing
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Aug 6, 2015 22:43
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boom boom boom posted:Good thing they're talking about it in the Madoka thread, then! What the!
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Aug 6, 2015 22:44
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Twiddy posted:A. I don't think you know a lot about Type-Moons other works, and B. have you read F/SN? Because most of what ties to F/Z is in HF, although obviously because it's all the same work UBW also applies. In general it reads like you're one of those guys who's mad at the UBW anime and thus don't want to relate it to F/Z despite the fact that they deal with similar themes because Urobuchi wrote a good companion piece to F/SN. I've read Nasu's work and I'm well aware, and I don't know why anyone would have anything against a show animated by ufotable. I know what ties the works together, but I also agree with the perspective that F/Z can be heavily compared to Madoka in thematics and atmosphere. Is that somehow unbelievable? It's clearly not, since Urobuchi himself has talked about how writing F/Z influenced him coming into the writing for Madoka Magica. Well I'm sorry, I didn't even realize I typed something that dumb, guys. And I'm not trying to argue for the first point that "Fate/Zero is actually the precursor to Madoka," I just wanted to point out that there was merit to the idea. I'll just chill.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:47
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A lot of shirou's stuff during each of the three arcs is about how he goes about achieving his wish and the consequences thereof. To simplify things it's something like: Stay Night: Will actively go out of his way to save everyone. Probably won't be happy UBW: Pretty set on saving as many people as possible, but is aware of the personal consequences HF: Abandons being a hero to all to instead be the hero to the person he cares about. Will probably be happy.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:48
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Namtab posted:But was lovecraft a paedophile? He was a Nazi sympathizer, so you know. Yes.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:48
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Space Flower posted:I know what ties the works together, but I also agree with the perspective that F/Z can be heavily compared to Madoka in thematics and atmosphere. Is that somehow unbelievable? It's clearly not, since Urobuchi himself has talked about how writing F/Z influenced him coming into the writing for Madoka Magica.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:52
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Space Flower posted:I've read Nasu's work and I'm well aware, and I don't know why anyone would have anything against a show animated by ufotable. I know what ties the works together, but I also agree with the perspective that F/Z can be heavily compared to Madoka in thematics and atmosphere. Is that somehow unbelievable? It's clearly not, since Urobuchi himself has talked about how writing F/Z influenced him coming into the writing for Madoka Magica. I wasn't really making fun of you for suggesting there's a relationship between fate/zero and madoka, because there is. I even agree that there is some similar exploration of themes. Where I disagreed with you was when you said that it has more in common with madoka than fate/stay night. E: I also disagree with lord justice, not on the point that there's a relationship, but on his suggesting that it's a really close relationship.
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Aug 6, 2015 22:55
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Space Flower posted:Umeka has been a great doujin artist for a long time. I hope to see him in serialized someday.  Lord Justice posted:"magical mystery gun man" Torquemadras posted:The story continues to be hella dark and intriguing, and Kiritsugi continues to be Torquemadras posted:It was pretty much the "mage duel" (bwahaha) between worm guy and I-Don't-Think-Kirei-Is-Evil-OHNO mage where the cons started outweighing the pros for real. It's one thing to have a fight be a one-sided beatdown, but that was just... two guys standing perfectly still while meaningless special effects fly at each other, and then one goes "nope", there's a bit anguished burning, done. It was ridiculous how cheap and unexciting it looked. Or, you know, explode a building. That works too.  Torquemadras posted:I still don't know why he got that spell, since Lancer did gently caress ALL against Caster's monster...
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Aug 6, 2015 23:10
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Blaziken386 posted:To be fair, there is a reason that the mages literally summon mythical heroes in order to fight each other. They may be lovely amoral bastards, but they're still pretty much just magical scientists. Scientists are not known for their fighting prowess.The only one of them really suited to being in a actual fight is Kiritsugu, but he's also the only one who "fights" the least, because just shooting the guy from 100 yards with a sniper rifle is so much less effort for him to do. Basically it's less about it being less effort and more about it being really effective due to the fact that the mages usually have a formalised dueling system
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Aug 6, 2015 23:18
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