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Joke has already been made.
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Aug 7, 2015 16:12
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| # ? May 23, 2024 19:48 |
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Vlaada Chvatil posted:[PER 10] Joke has already been made.
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Aug 7, 2015 16:18
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Back Hack posted:Welp, I think this latest announcement of no level cap has broken most of you, there is no longer a divide between those being ironic and unironic. I used Marxist critical gaming theory to dialectically transcend the dichotomy between ironic and unironic. Others have also followed this path.
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Aug 7, 2015 16:31
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Mordaedil posted:That's really untrue though. Low reputation with Legion meant assassins came after you. Low reputation on Freeside meant you were as likely to get shot by the kings as the beggars punching you did. Low reputation on the strip meant certain quests were more difficult to complete and some people acted like total stuck-up jackasses compared to a high reputation. But that's the thing, it is still just as binary and 2 dimensional as karma was, except it's different between areas. People either love you to death or hate you and attack you, inbetweens don't matter and in the case of Freeside you can just cheat. Oh and F3 karma existed in New Vegas too and it was probably worse since you could only increase it and it would increase even by just walking around since Raiders and Ghouls were considered Evil for some reason. Karma also did Jack poo poo other than give you a different tone of ending in every DLC.
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Aug 7, 2015 16:39
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Games are simulations, so you have to simplify reality in order to model it. People have spent pretty much all of human history debating the nature of morality, so I'm not surprised that in creating game systems the most that designers are capable of are good / evil dynamics. That being said, I think karma is a lovely system for role playing purposes, and it would be best to scrap it in favor of faction reputations. With good writing you can make various factions stand in for various world-views that go beyond a good / evil dichotomy, and get to other more interesting ideas (e.g. The Empire in Morrowind opposes slavery, but they're also a colonizing force that is trying to exploit Vvardenfall for its resources; House Telvanni is a sort of libertarian mage collective that values intellectual freedom, but also dabbles in unsavory magic, and has no problem with slavery). You still have polar love / hate relationships to factions, but at least you can align yourself with the one that most clearly represents your character's ideals. Unfortunately, Bethesda's last 3 games have been more interested in hero's journey narratives, and they're also supposedly taking more narrative control in FO4, so I would imagine that it's going to be another good / evil system.
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Aug 7, 2015 17:15
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Mordaedil posted:Reputation system allowed the game to track what each group of people thought of your character, as opposed to generally how good or bad he was and even accounted for what they thought of you if you kept flip-flopping on the issue. How is that bad? First and foremost because it was just another broken karma system, but also because it was so loving wacky. "You gave Private Goober and his buddy stimpacks, buuuuuuut you did murder an entire camp of rangers (which, even though there were no witnesses, we still know you did). We have mixed feelings about you..." It was probably a good idea in theory and on paper, but certainly not the finished product.
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Aug 7, 2015 18:12
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Bholder posted:But that's the thing, it is still just as binary and 2 dimensional as karma was, except it's different between areas. People either love you to death or hate you and attack you, inbetweens don't matter and in the case of Freeside you can just cheat. *one DLC
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Aug 7, 2015 18:27
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Bholder posted:But that's the thing, it is still just as binary and 2 dimensional as karma was, except it's different between areas. People either love you to death or hate you and attack you, inbetweens don't matter and in the case of Freeside you can just cheat. Karma was essentially ignorable in New Vegas. Also, the way reputation was better was that it wasn't 2-dimensional. Again, people had a different reaction if you had high rep, did a bunch of bad stuff and then did good stuff again. The NPC's literally tell you to make up your mind about whose side you are on. There is a limit to how much can be done with this, again, so what exactly do you suggest be done to improve this?
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Aug 7, 2015 18:30
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Mordaedil posted:Karma was essentially ignorable in New Vegas. Also, the way reputation was better was that it wasn't 2-dimensional. Again, people had a different reaction if you had high rep, did a bunch of bad stuff and then did good stuff again. The NPC's literally tell you to make up your mind about whose side you are on. There is a limit to how much can be done with this, again, so what exactly do you suggest be done to improve this? I'm sure that Bholder, since he definitely isn't an idiot, will take this into consideration and reply with a well thought out counterpoint that isn't massively hypocritical and makes sense.
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Aug 7, 2015 19:04
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Mordaedil posted:Again, people had a different reaction if you had high rep, did a bunch of bad stuff and then did good stuff again. The NPC's literally tell you to make up your mind about whose side you are on. When does this happen
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Aug 7, 2015 19:19
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frajaq posted:When does this happen One example is if you choose to nuke a faction at the end of Lonesome Road and then later come back to them as an operative through the main quest most of the named NPCs will express their disgust for you, but acknowledge that you're necessary for their larger plans. This is a pretty extreme sequence break, and the results are goofy as poo poo, but they did at least write that contingency into the game's script.
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Aug 7, 2015 19:35
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frajaq posted:When does this happen Reputation in New Vegas wasn't exactly a binary thing. It tracked both fame (positive reputation score) & infamy (negative score) separately. There are some interactions that change when you for example do them with full fame and no infamy, vs full fame and some infamy. Granted, it's generally just one line. But it's there.
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Aug 7, 2015 19:38
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It's cool in principle but I remember having a 'wild child' reputation with the NCR even though I never consciously did anything to hurt them.
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Aug 7, 2015 20:50
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Phlegmish posted:It's cool in principle but I remember having a 'wild child' reputation with the NCR even though I never consciously did anything to hurt them. That was a glitch they fixed in one of those "Fallout-complete" style mods. It was "Mild Child", you were well within the norms.
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Aug 7, 2015 20:53
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Raygereio posted:When you have a mixed reputation score. There are still only 3 situations that are important: They don't know you, they love you, they want to kill you, inbetween really doesn't matter. I think it's only NCR that has any point having points beyond friendly or infamous since certain quests requre a minimum amount of fame and if you are too infamous you can lock yourself out of those quests. But other than that it's just whether they want to attack you or give you free stuff.
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Aug 7, 2015 21:17
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Its an improvement over whether or not the Regulators hate you and come after you or Talon Company hates and comes after you all the time. Beth could probably improve on Reputation if they make certain groups weary each other and you could be seen as some sort of sleeper agent if you've been known to be very friendly to the Brotherhood or expand it to where killing hundreds and thousands of raiders makes you something of a scary urban legend to average NPC Joe, regardless of if you're known to be Wasteland Jesus or Literally Hitler.
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Aug 7, 2015 21:24
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Looks like this son of a bitch has been giving water to beggars. Lock and load, boys.
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Aug 7, 2015 22:49
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Phlegmish posted:It's cool in principle but I remember having a 'wild child' reputation with the NCR even though I never consciously did anything to hurt them. Did you do a lot of crouching in areas the NCR owned? The game keeps track of stuff like crouching. That, and how long you spend in cells flagged as bathrooms; the longer you hang out in bathrooms, the worse your reputation will be with a given faction (except the Kings for some reason, in which case you gain positive reputation).
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Aug 7, 2015 23:06
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Crabtree posted:Its an improvement over whether or not the Regulators hate you and come after you or Talon Company hates and comes after you all the time. Beth could probably improve on Reputation if they make certain groups weary each other and you could be seen as some sort of sleeper agent if you've been known to be very friendly to the Brotherhood or expand it to where killing hundreds and thousands of raiders makes you something of a scary urban legend to average NPC Joe, regardless of if you're known to be Wasteland Jesus or Literally Hitler. It was a negligible improvement at best. Also, reputation in New Vegas is ultimately meaningless until halfway through the game when you get to Vegas because you get an automatic reset with the only two factions that reputation comes close to mattering with.
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Aug 7, 2015 23:13
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:Did you do a lot of crouching in areas the NCR owned? The game keeps track of stuff like crouching. That, and how long you spend in cells flagged as bathrooms; the longer you hang out in bathrooms, the worse your reputation will be with a given faction (except the Kings for some reason, in which case you gain positive reputation). what is this real?
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Aug 7, 2015 23:16
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mrking posted:what is this real? Yes, crouching is considered stealing.
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Aug 7, 2015 23:19
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mrking posted:what is this real? Yeah NV was very badly programmed
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Aug 7, 2015 23:21
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mrking posted:what is this real?
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Aug 7, 2015 23:23
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:That, and how long you spend in cells flagged as bathrooms; the longer you hang out in bathrooms, the worse your reputation will be with a given faction (except the Kings for some reason, in which case you gain positive reputation). The Kings respect those who spend a lot of time on their hair.
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Aug 7, 2015 23:29
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JackBadass posted:[INT 1] Also, reputation in New Vegas is ultimately meaningless until halfway* through the game when you get to Vegas because you get an automatic reset with the only two factions that reputation comes close to mattering with. *Actually about 1/4 through the game, even less if you're playing all of the DLCs.
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Aug 8, 2015 00:38
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Karma is literally pointless in all Fallout games; the only moral action that matters is the "child killer" perk, and that's separate from karma, and only exists in some versions.
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Aug 8, 2015 00:47
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steinrokkan posted:Karma is literally pointless in all Fallout games; the only moral action that matters is the "child killer" perk, and that's separate from karma, and only exists in some versions. I agree. Even reputation should probably be put to bed. I'd like to see them just have competent script writers who give most major quest results actions further down the line.
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Aug 8, 2015 00:53
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Seeing as this is going to incorporate elements from Skyrim anyway you'll just see NPCs react to quest you've done, how high your skills/perks are, if you've married or slept with them and if you're their landlord and Governor of Penisville, Boston.
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Aug 8, 2015 01:02
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sector_corrector posted:[INT 0]Actually about 1/4 through the game, even less if you're playing all of the DLCs. [FAILED] Once again, not the point of the comment, sector_corrector.
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Aug 8, 2015 01:04
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Crabtree posted:Seeing as this is going to incorporate elements from Skyrim anyway you'll just see NPCs react to quest you've done, how high your skills/perks are, if you've married or slept with them and if you're their landlord and Governor of Penisville, Boston. Nobody in Skyrim reacted to anything that mattered. You could have served all the evil Daedra gods, and nobody would bat an eyelid; you could have murdered all the guards in an attempt to free the barbarian tribes, and there would be no reaction, and don't get me started on the Thief and Assassin Guilds; in short, there being elements of Skyrim just points towards moral elements being non-existent.
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Aug 8, 2015 01:18
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steinrokkan posted:Nobody in Skyrim reacted to anything that mattered. You could have served all the evil Daedra gods, and nobody would bat an eyelid; you could have murdered all the guards in an attempt to free the barbarian tribes, and there would be no reaction, and don't get me started on the Thief and Assassin Guilds; in short, there being elements of Skyrim just points towards moral elements being non-existent. But play the Companions questline and endure random guards asking you about the fur in your ears forever regardless of whether you're still a werewolf or not!!!
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Aug 8, 2015 01:20
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Shugojin posted:But play the Companions questline and endure random guards asking you about the fur in your ears forever regardless of whether you're still a werewolf or not!!! *is leader of the companions decked out in daedric armor* i hear you're the new companion, what do you do, fetch mead????
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Aug 8, 2015 01:22
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JackBadass posted:[FAILED] Once again, not the point of the comment, sector_corrector. What is the point of the comment, if not the thing that you said?
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Aug 8, 2015 01:34
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steinrokkan posted:Nobody in Skyrim reacted to anything that mattered. You could have served all the evil Daedra gods, and nobody would bat an eyelid; you could have murdered all the guards in an attempt to free the barbarian tribes, and there would be no reaction, and don't get me started on the Thief and Assassin Guilds; in short, there being elements of Skyrim just points towards moral elements being non-existent. I'm not saying the NPCs will say anything that matters. What I'm saying is get ready to hear is variations of "WHEN ARE YOU GONNA FIX THE loving ROOF" and "Conjure me a warm Bed" a billion loving times in between the reference jokes that will surpass arrow in the knee.
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Aug 8, 2015 01:36
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Crabtree posted:I'm not saying the NPCs will say anything that matters. What I'm saying is get ready to hear is variations of "WHEN ARE YOU GONNA FIX THE loving ROOF" and "Conjure me a warm Bed" a billion loving times in between the reference jokes that will surpass arrow in the knee. I hope to be hit by a car before this game gets made.
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Aug 8, 2015 01:45
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Bholder posted:There are still only 3 situations that are important: They don't know you, they love you, they want to kill you, inbetween really doesn't matter. That is a lot of complaining and no suggesting what could be done to change it or make it feel more realistic. Like seriously, what do you even want? There's only so many things and states a video game can account for. Even something like the Nemesis system from Shadows of Mordor essentially work under the same principle. And it's not as if there aren't individual trackers per NPC for how much they like you, which is then applied with a modifier to the faction reputation. Really, what more do you want?
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Aug 8, 2015 01:57
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Mordaedil posted:That is a lot of complaining and no suggesting what could be done to change it or make it feel more realistic. It's fine not to have a rich tree of interactions, but the game should't pretend to be the interactive War and Peace if it can't deliver.
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Aug 8, 2015 02:02
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steinrokkan posted:I hope to be hit by a car before this game gets made. They've paid attention to their fanbase and want to market to their specific needs. The only thing more horrible than a meme is one that was meticulously designed and forced into being.
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Aug 8, 2015 02:08
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steinrokkan posted:I hope to be hit by a car before this game gets made.  You know what to do
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Aug 8, 2015 02:11
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| # ? May 23, 2024 19:48 |
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Mordaedil posted:That is a lot of complaining and no suggesting what could be done to change it or make it feel more realistic. Personally not every NPC needs to give a poo poo about the player. I know I keep saying they should handle it like the Witcher, but they really should. It really nailed the player being a character that had to make ambiguous decisions that didn't have clear outcomes, and it's okay that the result of those decisions isn't impacting the way placeholder NPCs respond to you. What's important is creating situations that make the player have some sort of investment in their choices. Doesn't hurt if there are consequences to them as well. Main point is that the world shouldn't revolve around the player, especially a dude who was conked out for 200 years or whatever the gently caress and then started roaming around doing a bunch of random poo poo in a wasteland where no one knows who he/she is. Part of the reason I liked NV over Skyrim is that everyone sort of magically knew that you were the Dragon Born in Skyrim. That really bothered me. In New Vegas people only really acknowledge you depending on how much work you've done for their faction, they don't just exclaim "Oh poo poo, courier six!"
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Aug 8, 2015 02:16
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