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The idea of race isnt immutable and is entirely a social construct as well. Your point?
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Aug 8, 2015 21:03
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Rigged Death Trap posted:The idea of race isnt immutable and is entirely a social construct as well. You cannot change how your race is perceived by other people, even if it's entirely a social construct. You can very much choose to follow or not follow the advice of a book and the people that have studied it. Think of all the books people read every day without following them word-for-word for the rest of their life -- it's a skill every literate person already has!
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Aug 8, 2015 21:10
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PT6A posted:You cannot change how your race is perceived by other people, even if it's entirely a social construct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_(sociology)
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Aug 8, 2015 21:12
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bitey posted:This explains a lot. Every other translation I've started to read stopped me cold at the "God hates Jews" part on page 1. Not hostile western translators. But commentary from 12th and 13th century Islamic scholars who were embroiled in the midst of the crusades which uh... gave them some particular views. The most important commentator for that edition is probably Abu 'Abdullah Al-Qurtubi. If you're familiar with Arabic names you'll be able to tell that he was from Cordoba. His father was killed in a raid by Spanish soldiers when he was a youth and as an adult was present for Cordoba's conquest by Ferdinand III, and was expelled to Egypt afterwards. I haven't actually read any of his works, but my general feelings are that his views of Christianity probably weren't terribly positive. Most Muslims devout enough to care already know that the Khan translation is full of lovely commentary. It's really non-muslims looking to educate themselves that get exposed to it's garbage.
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Aug 8, 2015 22:38
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bitey posted:This explains a lot. Every other translation I've started to read stopped me cold at the "God hates Jews" part on page 1. The Muhammad Asad translation is the one CAIR passes out in the US. It was written by a Jewish convert (Muhammad Asad, formerly Leopold Weiss) who joined up with Bedouins in order to get a "Feel" for the language, and his footnotes give multiple perspectives from different scholars on the meaning of verses. Just to illustrate a bit of the difference, let me quote what Asad has for the last part of al-Fatihah: quote:Some commentators (e.g., Zamakhshari) interpret this passage as follows: "...the way of those upon whom Thou has bestowed Thy blessings - those who have not been condemned [by Thee], and who do not go astray": in other words, they regard the last two expressions as defining "those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings". Other commentators (e.g., Baghawi and Ibn Kathir) do not subscribe to this interpretation - which would imply the use of double negatives - and understand the last verse of the surah in the manner rendered by me above. As regards to the two categories of people following a wrong course, some of the greatest Islamic thinkers (e.g., Al-Ghazali or, in recent times, Muhammad Abduh) held the view that the people described as having incurred "God's condemnation" - that is, having deprived themselves of His grace - are those who have become fully cognizent of God's message and, having understood it, have rejected it; while by "those who go astray" are meant people whom the truth has either not reached at all, or to whom it has come in so garbled and corrupted a form as to make it difficult for them to recognize it as the truth (see Abduh in Manar I, 66 ff). (Most of the Dawah groups around here use Pickthall, though.) Edit: His notes sometimes get criticism because he believes certain miracles were metaphorical and it used to be (maybe still is?) banned in Saudi. Interestingly, he also ended up being one of the ideological founders of Pakistan. Mormon Star Wars fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Aug 8, 2015 |
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Aug 8, 2015 22:50
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Plastics posted:Wow, change "powerful" to "atrocious" and this is right on the money! Man, its almost like sexism is a common theme in most organized religions.
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Aug 8, 2015 23:47
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CommieGIR posted:Man, its almost like sexism is a common theme in most organized religions. Is there any major religion that isn't misogynistic?
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Aug 9, 2015 01:02
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ToxicAcne posted:Is there any major religion that isn't misogynistic? Y'know, not off the top of my head, no. I'm sure some are better than others...
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Aug 9, 2015 01:03
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Schizotek posted:Not hostile western translators. But commentary from 12th and 13th century Islamic scholars who were embroiled in the midst of the crusades which uh... gave them some particular views. Crusades and Mongol conquests. It was not a great time to be in the Islamic world all around. This reminds me of my then-Catholic father telling me a lot of American fundamentalist beliefs were rooted not in the Bible but from particular Bibles' commentaries and footnotes, but I can't recall the particular version he was talking about. I've already learned a lot, thanks Schizotek et al! e: It probably was the Scofield - thank you. Abner Cadaver II fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 01:13
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Abner Cadaver II posted:Crusades and Mongol conquests. It was not a great time to be in the Islamic world all around. He might have been talking about the Scofield Reference Bible, which is a big source of a lot of most of the Left Behind-style Rapture mania.
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Aug 9, 2015 01:16
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ToxicAcne posted:Is there any major religion that isn't misogynistic? Sikhism isn't one of the big 5 but pretty much is a direct reaction to the misogyny in Hinduism and Islam and just... does the opposite. Women are equal to men, full-stop.
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Aug 9, 2015 02:54
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuAqoKrtLcY Pretty contemporary 'new media' Islam content from popular Islamic youtuber, kinda prickly given it somewhat defends sex with children so long as they are 'mature' an also defends punishment for leaving the religion.
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Aug 9, 2015 03:03
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computer parts posted:"I'm just criticizing black people the same way I criticize Italians and Anglos!" Islam rules billions of people and a huge part of the world! It is not some Weak poor little put upon thing that should not be criticized because it is so fragile!
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Aug 9, 2015 03:08
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computer parts posted:"I'm just criticizing black people the same way I criticize Italians and Anglos!" Do you hold people to different standards of behaviour on the basis of their ethnicity?
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Aug 9, 2015 08:49
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Janism is a major organized religion that isn't sexist, or violent, or bigoted, but hey all religions are the same RIGHT GUEZ /R/atheism 4 eva When the most fundamentalist poo poo you can imagine jains doing is a meat aisle picket line or self imposed starvation you have to wonder what you guys are thinking when you oversimplify religion into universal equivocation. Main Paineframe posted:Some ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods in Israel have gender-segregated buses and sidewalks, among (many) other things. It's not, by any means, just an "Islamist" thing. Sexism in the name of conservative hyper-fundamentalism is not unique to any specific religion. The proportion and volume of conservatives between these two religions is significantly different however. Westboro Baptist Church or ultra Orthodox Judaism is a fringe, Islam has a sizable plurality if not majority that have some hosed up views on progressive issues. I prefer to think quantity is worth consideration rather than throwing my hands up proclaiming "all religions are same". Sethex fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 12:23
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Sethex posted:The proportion and volume of conservatives between these two religions is likely significantly different however. Westboro Baptist Church or Orthodox Judaism is a fringe, Islam has a sizable plurality if not majority that have some hosed up views on progressive issues. Orthodox Judaism is not a 'fringe'. About half of all observant Jews are orthodox. In the US, only about 10% of all Jews (including non-religious) are Orthodox, but Orthodox Jews are more likely to be a member of a Jewish institution and spend more time participating in it, so even in the US they have influence that outsizes their raw demographics. If what you mean is the Haredi, the so-called 'ultra-orthodox', those are also not a fringe. In Israel, they are 10% of the entire population. There are more than half a million in the US. In no way, at all, are they comparable to the WBC.
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Aug 9, 2015 12:31
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So let's say half of Jews ARE orthodox (I tried to find the figure but failed) what is that 0.5 % of the human population then? Secondly : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism 1.5 million people globally for this most extreme sect. But hey I was way off the handle when stating that over a third of 1/3 of 1.5 billion people was more of a concern than half of 14 million people. Sethex fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 12:54
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Obdicut posted:Orthodox Judaism is not a 'fringe'. About half of all observant Jews are orthodox. In the US, only about 10% of all Jews (including non-religious) are Orthodox, but Orthodox Jews are more likely to be a member of a Jewish institution and spend more time participating in it, so even in the US they have influence that outsizes their raw demographics. Only by considering all Sephardim to be Orthodox can you arrive at the half figure. And you are right that there is no.comparison between Haredim and WBC. Haredim do not proselytize, and keep to themselves. Christianity and Islam are imperial, colonizing religions.
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Aug 9, 2015 13:02
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TheImmigrant posted:And you are right that there is no.comparison between Haredim and WBC. Haredim do not proselytize, and keep to themselves. Christianity and Islam are imperial, colonizing religions. You just used the proper term in the previous sentence. Proselytize/Missionary work =/-= Imperialism. Why would you use the improper term here except if you're trying to tarnish Christianity/Islam with the bad brush of Imperialism?
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Aug 9, 2015 13:19
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:You just used the proper term in the previous sentence. Proselytize/Missionary work =/-= Imperialism. Why would you use the improper term here except if you're trying to tarnish Christianity/Islam with the bad brush of Imperialism? He didn't make an explicit equivalency between proselytising and imperialism. It was implied, sure, but they're not mutually exclusive either. Christianity and Islam are proselytising and imperialistic, both.
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Aug 9, 2015 13:32
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TheImmigrant posted:Only by considering all Sephardim to be Orthodox can you arrive at the half figure. Depends what you mean by Sephardim. But the nitpick doesn't matter: Orthodox are not a fringe Jewish population. quote:And you are right that there is no.comparison between Haredim and WBC. Haredim do not proselytize, and keep to themselves. Christianity and Islam are imperial, colonizing religions. No, the point I was making was in response to someone talking quantitatively, not qualitatively. My point is that, qualitatively, there is no comparison between Haredim and the WBC because the Haredim number in the millions and the WBC has 40 members. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 15:25
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Obdicut posted:Depends what you mean by Sephardim. But the nitpick doesn't matter: Orthodox are not a fringe Jewish population. Cool, brah. I'm Sephardic. We don't have Reform or Conservative schools. We really don't have a capital-O Orthodox school either, but if you feel the need to lump us in with weirdo Kahanism to look smart, go ahead with your dipshittery.
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Aug 9, 2015 15:50
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TheImmigrant posted:Cool, brah. I'm Sephardic. We don't have Reform or Conservative schools. We really don't have a capital-O Orthodox school either, but if you feel the need to lump us in with weirdo Kahanism to look smart, go ahead with your dipshittery. No see I don't think you understand just how much PalestineFacts.org some posters here have read. I think they're perfectly qualified to tell you about your jew stuff. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 9, 2015 17:55
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Hey folks! It's time for round three of Todays Surrah is Al-Qalam (The Pen)! And it's a tad long so I'm gonna break it into more manageable chunks for us. Al Qalam posted:In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate Al Qalam posted:In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate Al Qalam posted:Now We have tried them, even as We tried the owners of the garden when they swore they  Or stole all the fruit. Depends on the translation. Then they repent and say they will get an even better garden from God. Obvious connections to salvation and the afterlife are drawn. Al Qalam posted:What, shall we make those who have surrendered like to the sinners*? What ails you * The Khan translation, being so lovely, inserts a reference to "polytheists" here, which is basically a pejorative way in that commentary of saying Christian. The word is a pretty generic sinner/criminal catch-all term in arabic. Just gotta remember to gently caress the infidels, though. **Refers to a story in another surrah we won't get to for awhile. It mentions Jonah calling out to God when he realized he hosed up. That's all you need to understand that reference. Al-Muzzammil tomorrow! Schizotek fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 18:44
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TheImmigrant posted:Cool, brah. I'm Sephardic. We don't have Reform or Conservative schools. We really don't have a capital-O Orthodox school either, but if you feel the need to lump us in with weirdo Kahanism to look smart, go ahead with your dipshittery. If you exclude all Sephardim from Orthodoxy, my point still stands. So you're arguing over something that I'm not contesting that is also irrelevant to the point I'm making. You are a really weird person. Obdicut fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 19:09
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Schizotek posted:
شكرا جزيلا على هذا العمل
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Aug 9, 2015 19:29
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Schizotek posted:Also: gently caress atheists. The branding the nose/snout/muzzle thing seems to be an idiom, not an actual command to brand atheists faces. That's all I needed to dismiss the Quran, thanks. Edit: Another dead atheist blogger: http://www.inquisitr.com/2317158/another-blogger-killed-al-qaeda-claims-responsibility/ Four this year. edit: Better link? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/08/world/asia/another-secular-blogger-in-bangladesh-is-killed.html?_r=1 bitey fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 20:23
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bitey posted:That's all I needed to dismiss the Quran, thanks. It actually is just an idiom meaning "humiliate" akin to the english idiom "rub their nose in the ground", and is understood by everyone, even salafists, as such. It speaks more to the way they poorly treated animals than anything else. If you need me to deconstruct it I'll go through it with sources. Unless you're problem is with the whole "we disagree with atheists" thing in which case ok. But the verses extremists use to murder atheists come later.
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Aug 9, 2015 20:34
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Schizotek posted:It actually is just an idiom meaning "humiliate" akin to the english idiom "rub their nose in the ground", and is understood by everyone, even salafists, as such. It speaks more to the way they poorly treated animals than anything else. If you need me to deconstruct it I'll go through it with sources. Unless you're problem is with the whole "we disagree with atheists" thing in which case ok. But the verses extremists use to murder atheists come later. So, I guess I should wait for the later verses before I mention this murder that happened yesterday? "gently caress atheists" appears to mean "kill them." And hey, here's an example. A recent example. That follows an established pattern. edit: The established pattern being: Anti-Islamic bloggers are being hacked to death in Bangladesh. In this latest one, the daesh assassins used a ruse ("Taqiya") to gain entry to his house, and then killed him with machetes. I'm not waiting for the Quran Book Club to help me formulate an opinion about this. bitey fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 20:44
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bitey posted:So, I guess I should wait for the later verses before I mention this murder that happened yesterday? Well "gently caress" was my paraphrasing of "obey not", which is consistent across five of the seven translations I have on hand, the other two being "yield not" and "heed not". And everybody here knows that there are extremist murderers who kill people who publicly disagree with them. So I really don't know what bringing up a specific example while quoting me paraphrasing "obey not" is supposed to mean. e: Actually I'm pretty sure you never actually read the surrah itself and just read my commentary because you're lazy. And then tried to come up with some totally sick "muslims are orcs" burn and just came out looking dumb. bitey posted:I'm not waiting for the Quran Book Club to help me formulate an opinion about this. Schizotek fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 21:09
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Schizotek posted:Well "gently caress" was my paraphrasing of "obey not", which is consistent across five of the seven translations I have on hand, the other two being "yield not" and "heed not". And everybody here knows that there are extremist murderers who kill people who publicly disagree with them. So I really don't know what bringing up a specific example while quoting me paraphrasing "obey not" is supposed to mean. In your opinion, does the passage of the Quran you quoted justify the most recent murder of a blogger in Bangladesh? Because it seems to, to me.
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Aug 9, 2015 21:16
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bitey posted:In your opinion, does the passage of the Quran you quoted justify the most recent murder of a blogger in Bangladesh? Because it seems to, to me. Well the first part says "obey not", the second says that the muslim community will brand them (being atheists and other doubters) on the snout (the arabic word is actually the one used to refer to an elephants trunk or pigs nose.). At worst you have something saying that burning someones face is ok. Which it doesn't. But no, not even the most insane and violent understanding of that verse comes anywhere close to justifying murder. You stupid gently caress.
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Aug 9, 2015 21:23
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Schizotek posted:Well the first part says "obey not", the second says that the muslim community will brand them (being atheists and other doubters) on the snout (the arabic word is actually the one used to refer to an elephants trunk or pigs nose.). At worst you have something saying that burning someones face is ok. Which it doesn't. But no, not even the most insane and violent understanding of that verse comes anywhere close to justifying murder. You stupid gently caress. Ah yes. Well explained. Except that people are using that verse not only to burn somebody's face, or push their faces into the ground, but also to murder them. Yes, the most insane and violent understanding of that verse is being applied. "Burn somebody's face?" That's kind of what they do in some places; they throw acid at women who dare to show their faces. "At worst, you have something saying that throwing acid in women's faces is ok." But that's "at worst." No, you would never have an interpretation that would justify throwing acid in people's faces. That would be barbaric. bitey fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 21:25
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bitey posted:Ah yes. Well explained. Do you actually know that the people who killed those bloggers are citing this surah? It didn't come up in either of your stories and it seems just as likely to me that they just think "atheists are not Muslims, therefore murder." e: perhaps a better rephrasing would be "these people are publicly atheist and calling for the punishment of Muslim extremists, therefore murder" Badger of Basra fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 22:45
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bitey posted:Ah yes. Well explained. Jeez man it seems like you're just going over his posts only looking for things that reinforce an existing position, rather than debating it's contents in good faith. To be honest I don't think the people who did murder the Atheist Bloggers needed anything more than the barest, most flimsy excuse to kill someone who holds a dissenting opinion or they perceive has even the smallest chance of threatening their hegemony. Extremists generally don't need reasons nor excuses beyond 'I don't like them', All they need is oppurtunity. As for the ن The Quran is supposed to be in the style of Arab poetry at the time, maybe it's part of a technique used to establish the rhyming sound/syllable/meter/insert poetry terminology. After some cursory searching I've found that it could be a representation of the great whale/fish that carries the seven skies. Or a River in Heaven, Or started with due to being the last letter of one of the names of Allah: الرحمن Or all of the above. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 23:20
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I'm shocked, shocked, that the holy text of this religion condemns people who scoff at it.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:19
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We know through homer that oral poetry can be very intricate. What would Muhammad's influences be at the time of revelation.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:23
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I'm going to post in this thread without quoting anybody else. Hey look, another atheist blogger hacked to death in Bangladesh: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/08/world/asia/another-secular-blogger-in-bangladesh-is-killed.html?_r=1 Fourth this year.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:49
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ToxicAcne posted:We know through homer that oral poetry can be very intricate. What would Muhammad's influences be at the time of revelation. First and most probable: Arabian Poetry. Possibly the most important of which were The Mu'alaqaat (hung ones). Refers to a set of what was considered the absolute finest poetry produced by Arabian poets, the ten of them covered all major styles and origins used by Arabian tribes at the time, and were held in such high regard as to be painted on the Kaaba. Which then was, as is still true now, an absolutely central religious site, before Islam came in. As you may know the Quran is held to be a divine miracle, the miracle being that it's not supposed to be 'just' the literal word of god, but also a superlative text that puts all written and spoken word before it to shame. Bitey posted:edit: The established pattern being: Anti-Islamic bloggers are being hacked to death in Bangladesh. In this latest one, the daesh assassins used a ruse ("Taqiya") to gain entry to his house, and then killed him with machetes. Yeah I read your post again. Ruses aren't Taqiyya. Taqiyya is explicitly lying or concealing your Islamic faith where it would save a Muslim's life. And it isn't an Islamic Original Idea(tm) but  But for reals: I've found that people randomly mentioning Taqiyya generally pair it with uninformed, bigoted screeds. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Aug 10, 2015 |
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Aug 10, 2015 00:49
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Rigged Death Trap posted:To be honest I don't think the people who did murder the Atheist Bloggers needed anything more than the barest, most flimsy excuse to kill someone who holds a dissenting opinion or they perceive has even the smallest chance of threatening their hegemony. Extremists generally don't need reasons nor excuses beyond 'I don't like them', All they need is oppurtunity. Excuse me? The names of the targets are on a list distributed by Al Quada. "Barest, most flimsy excuse?" What the gently caress is the matter with you? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 10, 2015 00:56
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