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From the title of the next episode, my theory is that the outsider is actually both Adlet and Nash, Nash completely intentionally 'cuz she's evil or something and Adlet just being a total moron, since Nash is suspicious as balls and it's only her implied word we have to go on that Adlet's weird dream sequence laser-hand thing was at all how it was supposed to happen. Thus, in order to make the title even more inaccurate, the show will introduce an eighth hero to make it the eight braves of the six flowers, even if Nash doesn't really count.
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Aug 9, 2015 05:07
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alcharagia posted:From the title of the next episode, my theory is that the outsider is actually both Adlet and Nash, Nash completely intentionally 'cuz she's evil or something and Adlet just being a total moron, since Nash is suspicious as balls and it's only her implied word we have to go on that Adlet's weird dream sequence laser-hand thing was at all how it was supposed to happen. Thus, in order to make the title even more inaccurate, the show will introduce an eighth hero to make it the eight braves of the six flowers, even if Nash doesn't really count. Adlet's gonna feel real dumb when he realizes the eighth man he's looking for is himself.
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Aug 9, 2015 05:57
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Actually wait no poo poo I was doing the dishes and I had a sudden epiphany as to how Nash coulda done it. Looking at the timeline of Nash's actions, we have: -Fights the Fiends with Adlet, Goldov, and Flamie. -Tells Adlet to GTFO to the temple. -Runs in a while later with the rest of the gang. -Flips the gently caress out on the altar. -Proceeds to take a passive role for the last two episodes. The activation method for the barrier itself had been sitting strangely with me since the seal for the door was expounded upon; just slamming it in the dais and yelling "FOG, RISE" is too... open-ended for it to be sealed one time. I'd figure something like that would be designed to be used one time all the way. So, I began operating under the assumption of "what if that's not actually how the barrier is activated?" and rewatched Episode 4. At roughly 16:25, Nash shatters a conspicuous tablet on a stand and then proceeds to shout "I will be the mistress of the barrier!" It's in the midst of her freakout, but it's out of line with the vernacular she's used for the rest of the series and the rest of her freakout. Shattering the tablet is given a close-up shot, and it's definitely a one-time thing. I think that that's when the barrier was actually activated and the Braves were locked in- prior to that, the fog was just ordinary fog. In Episode 4, from nearing the temple to the fog setting in, there are multiple establishing shots of the sun blaring with copious lens flare. Additionally, Adlet Myer, The Strongest Man In The World, who's been demonstrated to have absurd amounts of endurance, not only has to stop and take his breath, but is shown with a drop of sweat on his face when witnessing the fiend shed its disguise. It's hot. However, in Episode 5 when Adlet and Hans are surveying the area, it's noted to be extremely cold because of the Salt Saint's magic. Fog, as in the actual weather phenomenon, can be caused by hot winds blowing over a normally-cold area. Ordinarily, this would be out of the question, because who the hell can plan around causing fog that way? However, though she hasn't personally appeared, a character exists that is priorly established to have control over the sun, and thus would be able to cause this situation- Riura, the Sun Saint, who has gone missing but is not a notch on Flamie's belt- therefore, she's an outstanding plot point. Therefore, my theory is that Nash utilized Riura's powers (voluntarily or otherwise- the "why" still isn't in the picture) to cause a bout of fog to disguise her own activation of the magical barrier's fog, and sent Adlet forward at the optimal time to have him unseal the door and act as a fall guy. Adlet's bombs opened the seal, of course, because he is The Strongest Man In The World, and thus can just do that.  The only flaw I can see is "why is there a false activation method in the first place" and I don't have a goddamn clue about that. v  v Maybe those jerks at the fort were in on it! Who knows. I'm gonna go back to listening to Black Swallowtail 'cuz it's a good song.
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Aug 9, 2015 07:06
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This sounds plausible.
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Aug 9, 2015 07:22
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I think it could be likely Nach is a fake while also not being the one responsible for whatever is going on. Her strange behaviour would just be her waking up to this not being a fun roadtrip, and would explain her boy's reaction to her. Also kind of obnoxious that Adlet never just said 'hey there was some weirdo outside when I first got here and I was distracted for like half a minute'.
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Aug 9, 2015 07:49
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alcharagia posted:At roughly 16:25, Nash shatters a conspicuous tablet on a stand and then proceeds to shout "I will be the mistress of the barrier!" It's in the midst of her freakout, but it's out of line with the vernacular she's used for the rest of the series and the rest of her freakout. Shattering the tablet is given a close-up shot, and it's definitely a one-time thing. I think that that's when the barrier was actually activated and the Braves were locked in- prior to that, the fog was just ordinary fog. That makes sense. She was also the one who said the barrier had been activated when they came into the temple -- when they all rushed in, she asked Adlet why he activated it, then a few minutes later when they're all up on the dias she is the one who says it was activated just like the fort guy said. All Flamie confirms as they're trying to deactivate before she flips out it is that the fog isn't gone. Rewatching that scene, I was also kinda wondering what was up with the paper she flings away since it also got some focus when she was flailing around. I think it shows up back on one of the stands all folded up, but beyond that it hasn't been messed with right? I didn't rewatch everything, just a few minutes here and there so I don't remember.
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Aug 9, 2015 08:20
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Goldov has no saint powers because he's a man, and he was with Flamie and Nash when they were fighting demons at the time the barrier was raised. It can't be him. This also rules out Flamie as the one who could open the barrier. It could rule out Nash if she can't remotely trigger the barrier due to the key being a blade. If Maura would have to open the seal to use the key, that makes it a lot less likely to be her unless they're going to pull wall-walking out of a hat or she's suddenly a sneaky person too. Which leaves Nash and Hans (and Chamot if we could find some reason to suspect her). And Nash is an anagram of Hans.  (I'm kidding about this one since I highly doubt it ends an anagram in Japanese, plus it's an abbreviation)I suspect that Chamot transforms in some way, but we also saw what was probably the transforming demon's corpse (Hans used it as a puppet). Maybe she can get even smaller or something. Kylra fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 08:28
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The Saint of Aspergers-- sorry I mean Gunpowder is still pretty annoying, but at least the plot is interesting now. Adlet did some more cool stuff yay
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Aug 9, 2015 08:35
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Flamie is at a solid 3rd on the list of Who Is The Best. She is above Maura, Goldov, Nash, and Chamot in that order.
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Aug 9, 2015 08:38
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The instant Maura actually gets to do her insane mountain-style kung fu like in the OP to episode 5 she will rise above Flamie.
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Aug 9, 2015 08:40
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alcharagia posted:The only flaw I can see is "why is there a false activation method in the first place" and I don't have a goddamn clue about that. v I think it's a neat theory Nash and Goldov got to the fort before Adlet and Flamie, didn't they? I guess it's possible that she made something up then and told the fort guys to pass it on. Did the fort guy say how he knew about the method, I'm too lazy to rewatch and check
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Aug 9, 2015 08:42
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TWIST FIST posted:Nash and Goldov got to the fort before Adlet and Flamie, didn't they? I guess it's possible that she made something up then and told the fort guys to pass it on. Did the fort guy say how he knew about the method, I'm too lazy to rewatch and check Actually, wait, you're right. Unless fort dude was referring to Maura and Hans, he said that "the other Braves left a while ago," but Nash said "We spoke with fort guy- it was probably after you left."
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Aug 9, 2015 08:45
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Still not sure about that though. Or Goldov being in on it to begin with. That part just doesn't feel right to me. Ah, well, I've got 6 days to stew on it.
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Aug 9, 2015 08:55
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NowonSA posted:It looks like the seal was explained in great detail after all in this episode, so I don't know how it could be unclear to anyone who's watching. I feel stupid having insisted that Maura explained it in the LN when she does so in the first 5 minutes or so of this episode. alcharagia posted:Actually, wait, you're right. Unless fort dude was referring to Maura and Hans, he said that "the other Braves left a while ago," but Nash said "We spoke with fort guy- it was probably after you left." TWIST FIST posted:Nash and Goldov got to the fort before Adlet and Flamie, didn't they? I guess it's possible that she made something up then and told the fort guys to pass it on. Did the fort guy say how he knew about the method, I'm too lazy to rewatch and check Nash, Goldov and Flamie all showed up together post-activation after Adlet did his things. Presumably fort guy knew about the method because it was his job. At least that's the impression I got.
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Aug 9, 2015 09:03
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Kylra posted:Presumably fort guy knew about the method because it was his job. At least that's the impression I got. Well the idea behind the theory in question is that that method isn't how you actually activate the barrier.
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Aug 9, 2015 09:05
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alcharagia posted:Well the idea behind the theory in question is that that method isn't how you actually activate the barrier.
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Aug 9, 2015 09:15
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Kylra posted:Those 4 met up again before getting to the temple jungle. They had the clash between Nash, Goldov and Flamie in that mountain pass. the fort not the temple Although I guess it's all moot if he was referring to Maura all along.
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Aug 9, 2015 09:16
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Maura asks to see Hans' symbol to see if Flamie died instead of showing him hers. Unless for some reason she 100% thinks Adel did it or that 100% Hans is innocent thats a red flag. You would always use your own because theirs could be a fake, no?
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Aug 9, 2015 12:56
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Kild posted:Unless for some reason she 100% thinks Adel did it or that 100% Hans is innocent thats a red flag. You would always use your own because theirs could be a fake, no? kater posted:Also kind of obnoxious that Adlet never just said 'hey there was some weirdo outside when I first got here and I was distracted for like half a minute'. NowonSA posted:Adlet's gonna feel real dumb when he realizes the eighth man he's looking for is himself. I'm going to rewatch the fort/initial barrier explanation episode, but considering how convenient this temple trap has turned out for team-demon, I'm wondering if this wasn't its veiled purpose from the beginning.
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Aug 9, 2015 13:14
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Ferretts posted:The one between her shoulder blades? Kild fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 13:21
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At this point all suspicion is planted squarely on Adlet, there's not much reason for the group of five to fragment with further distrust. Also Maura seems a more likely fake, so her trusting Hans' mark seems fine.
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Aug 9, 2015 13:33
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dogsicle posted:At this point all suspicion is planted squarely on Adlet, there's not much reason for the group of five to fragment with further distrust. Also Maura seems a more likely fake, so her trusting Hans' mark seems fine. That was my point. She's probably a fake because if hers showed 6 and his showed 5 that'd be a problem. So she asked to use his. Baseless speculation: Saint of the Sun can probably affect light as well and refract her appearance away/turn invisible. Kild fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 13:49
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Don't forget though: the puzzle has to be solvable by the characters, not just the audience.
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Aug 9, 2015 14:37
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Kylra posted:Don't forget though: the puzzle has to be solvable by the characters, not just the audience. Well Adlet thinks there's an 8th already and she has to be around still. So its just a matter of finding said invisible person.
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Aug 9, 2015 15:12
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It's still got to be Maura. -The tattoo on the back of the neck is useless. If the tattoo has the informational powers ascribed to it this episode, it would have to be in a place that's visible to the individual brave, for tactical considerations. - Maura had the key, and the golems attacked Adlet when he blew up the door. That means that, if the door had been opened, it had been opened properly - We still have no idea what the "Saint of Mountains" actually does except comfort little kids who keep accidentally murdering their best friends with their superpowers.
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Aug 9, 2015 15:49
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Kytrarewn posted:- Maura had the key, and the golems attacked Adlet when he blew up the door. That means that, if the door had been opened, it had been opened properly The explanation is still that the door can never be closed again, regardless of how it was opened. Proper key, bomb explosion, or power smash, either would have locked the door open for good.
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Aug 9, 2015 15:52
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nielsm posted:The explanation is still that the door can never be closed again, regardless of how it was opened. Proper key, bomb explosion, or power smash, either would have locked the door open for good. Do we know this absolutely to be true? It seems like it would be silly to go to all of this trouble building a temple, setting up the wards and the salt lines, etc for the sake of a barrier that would only work once. It has to have been years and years of work. Even if it is true, what good is a magical seal that's broken with the equivalent of an M80? It should have required either the key or force majeure. Adlet was right when he said that the door that we saw wasn't necessarily the original door to the temple, even if his explanation as to how that came to be the case was fatally flawed.
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Aug 9, 2015 16:12
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Kytrarewn posted:It's still got to be Maura. The look she cowed Chamot with in her intro scene was pretty nasty and while I don't remember the exact words, telling her to be silent could have carried more meaning than "stop trying to kill Flamie" lol I can't commit to a theory, but I don't like Adlet as the seventh because our POV as audience would have to be unreliable for him to have pulled anything off and I want to trust the show not to open that can of worms. I don't think we can take all the info we've been given at face value, but if we also can't trust the camera then the show can pull pretty much anything out of its rear end. While a possibility, I'd be really disappointed if that was actually the case.
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Aug 9, 2015 16:19
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Kytrarewn posted:Do we know this absolutely to be true? It seems like it would be silly to go to all of this trouble building a temple, setting up the wards and the salt lines, etc for the sake of a barrier that would only work once. It has to have been years and years of work. From what's been said, a single-use lock seems to be the way the saint of seals powers work. The seal wasn't made that way on purpose, it was the only way it could work. When you think of a seal like a wax seal on a letter or a seal on a jar, it makes a lot of sense. They're designed to make it impossible to hide that you've opened a thing, which is what the seal on the temple does.
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Aug 9, 2015 16:19
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Ferretts posted:I'm going to rewatch the fort/initial barrier explanation episode, but considering how convenient this temple trap has turned out for team-demon, I'm wondering if this wasn't its veiled purpose from the beginning. Well, it was built a long time ago by at least 4 Saints (Seal, Salt, Illusion and Fog) teaming up. It's possible all four of them could have been manipulated by the demons, but this seems more like Demons using the enemy's assets against them. alcharagia posted:Big ol' theory A lot of this makes sense, but it does require a fort full of people to be in on it, which seems too elaborate. I also don't know the range on the Sun Saint's power, but the terrain near the temple seems pretty flat, if she's used her power and got stuck in the barrier with everyone else then she should be around somewhere. If all she needs is Line of Sight though she could be on a distant cliff I suppose. It's also possible that it's naturally warm in the area, and the fog barrier just cools down the surroundings. Plus, you would want to design the Temple with a way to turn it off, so it's not really the same situation as the sealed door. If everything had gone to plan, the soldiers at the base they left would have made it to the temple and activated it after the Braves had made it into the first part of Demon territory. They hole up there with supplies and whatnot, then when they know the Demon King's defeated (something as major as that can probably be determined even in the barrier), they release the seal and get back to life. The alternative is that the Saints who made the temple designed it to doom whoever activated it, which is kind of a dick move. So the ritual having a designed on and off switch makes a lot of sense to me. So I agree it's designed to be used one-time, as in during one conflict with the Demon King, but it should be made with an on/off toggle, and breaking the altar seems like a solid "turn it on and it's on forever no takebacks" situation. It's pretty solid overall though, if you think Nash is the seventh then her sending Adlet in on his own is suspicious, and she'd have to trigger the fog barrier somehow if the fake fog theory is true and her freakout on the altar is as good a time as any.
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Aug 9, 2015 16:22
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There are also hundreds of years between awakenings IIIRC so a single-use temple made just for this batch of heroes makes sense. By the time they might need something else, another generation of saints can whip it up.
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Aug 9, 2015 16:23
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Kytrarewn posted:- Maura had the key, and the golems attacked Adlet when he blew up the door. That means that, if the door had been opened, it had been opened properly Is there only one key? Why did Maura have it when the soldiers back at the fortress were supposed to activate the barrier?
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Aug 9, 2015 16:33
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Kild posted:That was my point. She's probably a fake because if hers showed 6 and his showed 5 that'd be a problem. So she asked to use his. Well yeah, it's just confusing when you first say a Brave should only trust their own mark (with the implication that Hans is a fake), then follow it up with "Well Maura asked to see his because Flamie could be dead and her (fake) mark wouldn't show it." dogsicle fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 16:37
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Kytrarewn posted:Do we know this absolutely to be true? It seems like it would be silly to go to all of this trouble building a temple, setting up the wards and the salt lines, etc for the sake of a barrier that would only work once. It has to have been years and years of work. Without the Barrier in place the demons have a clear path to literally all of humanity with only force of arms to stop them. With the barrier in place they're locked up with the Braves. It probably doesn't much help the Braves' chances in the latter scenario, but you're basically guaranteed to be saving thousands, if not tens of thousands, of lives from Demons running all over the place. Once you have this setup in place you also have a few hundred years to do it again, have new saints recharge the fog and illusions, re-seal the temple, re...salt the pillars? Etc. There might be enough juice in it to last multiple Demon King Awakenings anyway, though that seems like a stretch. As for the usefulness of the seal, since Demons can't get near it you can assume that only a human can break the seal. I guess Demons could just lob bombs at it from the ground until it broke, but I'm pretty sure bombs are a new innovation in this round of the conflict and not something they would have really designed around. If you know the security of the temple has been compromised, you can sweep the area before you activate the temple, so you aren't locking yourself in with a bunch of death-cult demon worshippers. A seal that mostly serves to tell you when it's been broken isn't the most useful one, I agree, but there are lots of real-life examples where the knowledge of "Has this area or thing been opened or not" is useful, including pickle jars, envelopes, high-tech vaults, etc. But like I said before, it's mostly so there's a locked room mystery .Tamba posted:Is there only one key? Why did Maura have it when the soldiers back at the fortress were supposed to activate the barrier? I can't quite remember, but I think there are at least two keys. Maura was the first to get to the fort (I think she got there along with Hans), so she got the key and sent on her way. The rest got instructions but no key, but since the fort guys know all about the temple they probably knew they Braves could just brute force the door if they had to. Fort guys have another key, or the knowledge that they can just whack at the door long enough and the seal will break. Remember also that everyone was heading to, or already at, the meet-up point before they saw the temple being attacked, so Maura had no reason to rush straight to the temple and turn it on with no knowledge of where the hell the other Braves (except for Hans) are. The worst case scenario was supposed to be one brave heading back to turn on the temple, which is one more reason giving the braves only one key makes sense, only one was ever supposed to need it.
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Aug 9, 2015 16:40
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I don't even think it was Adlet that opened the door. The bombs the fiends dropped did nothing but Adlet's somehow made the door move? Maura was the first one without Hans. She found Hans hanging around the temple a day before they got locked in. Kild fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 16:41
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If the bombs' only purpose was drawing the braves to the temple then they may have essentially been throwing blanks, or big smoke bombs. If you wreck your trap before it works you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot.
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Aug 9, 2015 16:45
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Everything Burrito posted:If the bombs' only purpose was drawing the braves to the temple then they may have essentially been throwing blanks, or big smoke bombs. If you wreck your trap before it works you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot. Or just aim the blasts so they land near the gigantic pyramid, but not on the gigantic pyramid. Seems pretty easy, and they weren't exactly dropping high yield explosives.
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Aug 9, 2015 16:52
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Adlet was shocked/awed that the Temple didn't take much damage from those explosions. If he's an expert he should've noticed they were blanks/not that powerful though.
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Aug 9, 2015 17:11
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I've now read the novel up to where the current episode stopped, and there's something else that was omitted from the anime (I guess there's no way to show it visually without spoiling anything). There some scenes written from the perspective of the seventh. There first one was basically "Well, posing as a hero was easy, now I just need to get rid of them one by one...I'll probably start with Adlet", after everyone arrived at the temple. In the other scene, the seventh was surprised that Adlet was able to out of that situation. That means all theories like "Adlet is the seventh without knowing it" are out. It's probably not Flamie either, because the second scene happened when she was tranquilized (but it might have been when she woke up, but before Adlet woke up again, so that one is not definite). That's assuming the author isn't pulling a Heavy Rain-like "It was Adlet all along and he's lying to himself in his own thoughts to confuse the reader" twist.
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Aug 9, 2015 18:57
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Tamba posted:Is there only one key? Why did Maura have it when the soldiers back at the fortress were supposed to activate the barrier? Everything Burrito posted:If the bombs' only purpose was drawing the braves to the temple then they may have essentially been throwing blanks, or big smoke bombs. If you wreck your trap before it works you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot.
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Aug 9, 2015 19:03
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