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A Pit Fighter fighter can pretty heavily own in terms of single target damage with anything other than at-wills. Rain of Blows/Bash and Pummel/Trip Up, three multi-tap encounter powers, plus a reasonably easily triggered off-turn attack, and Pit Fighter itself comes with a solid encounter power. Greatweapon fighters own.
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Aug 8, 2015 20:21
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There still are plenty of nice fighter paragon paths left for people to MC into like Shocktrooper or Kensei, even if the latter is a boring path for boring people, plus more defender-oriented PPs like Polearm Master. Plus there's all the sweet fighter feat support since the fighter is probably one of the most well-supported classes in the game. Its only rival in terms of sheer amount of stuff produced for the class is probably the wizard.
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Aug 8, 2015 20:39
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Oh, there's still plenty of awesome, it's just not gonna hit "Add +Wis to all damage forever" or KAM's "gently caress it, attack twice every turn." Which, you know, is good. Choices that are substantially too strong are also unbalanced and reduce interesting options to take. That said one of these days I still want to run an Arena Fighter who uses the hilariously poorly worded Arena Fighter ability to combine quarterstaff expertise, spiked chain mastery, and Polearm Master to swing those chains around at Reach 15, while counting as both flail and light-blade to use the best feats and powers of both.
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Aug 8, 2015 20:44
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Choosing between Spiked Chain and Greatspear on a Polearm Master build is really hard. Polearm does have some more feats required for the set-up (especially if you want forced movement for Polearm Momentum), but on the other hand Polearm Gamble is really fun.
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Aug 8, 2015 21:02
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Polearm Gamble is good but Spiked CHain is so much easier to optimise. And the stats for polearms suck way more than the feats - 15WIS/DEX is tough to pull off early on.
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Aug 8, 2015 21:10
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LightWarden posted:Choosing between Spiked Chain and Greatspear on a Polearm Master build is really hard. Polearm does have some more feats required for the set-up (especially if you want forced movement for Polearm Momentum), but on the other hand Polearm Gamble is really fun. The draw is that I get both Flail and Light Blade support. Flail has some of the best control, light blade damage. Best of both worlds! ...Also I just like the goofy aesthetics of a dude with two knives on chains tripping fuckers and stabbing them in the face from across the battlefield, then pulling them over. Sometimes you just wanna be Scorpion.
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Aug 8, 2015 21:17
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Stick that on a Minotaur and pick up Beastblooded Minotaur and you can push the reach to 4 at 16. Polearm Master is probably strictly better as a paragon path, though, since its 16 feature allows for the fighter to punish enemies from two squares away and gets the extra square of forced movement to keep them in range, but it could be fun if you just want to hit someone from 20 feet away. Plus the action point is WAY better on the Beastblooded since it's a free action charge for just spending it as opposed to replacing your extra standard for one extra square of reach. I know I'd rather have the equivalent of three standard actions on a single turn.
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Aug 8, 2015 22:06
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thespaceinvader posted:I'm pretty sure it was originally just straight +WIS to damage, and it was errated to be Fighter and PF powers only. Pit Fighter is nice now, but it can't be used to MASSIVELY boost damage on pure strikers because it only applies to fighter powers. Except, of course, that Fighters can be very solid strikers by themselves, and just PF, Fighter and AP damage boosts are very solid. It's the PP I would take on an Epic Slayer, but not on a Paragon one because Draeven Marauder is +crits and you can really punch up Slayer crits. Ah you're right. I just forget that the compendium doesn't bother listing every time there was an Errata  Despite how often that comes up when I look up a thing not marked as such and come out with a different answer than my friend looking over their stuff. ProfessorCirno posted:Which is why I always laugh at the grog thought of "4e Fighters can't do any damage, they're just meatshields!" Then I sigh because that spreads and people who've never played the game repeat it. 4th Ed fighter was me going "Holy poo poo I'm actually ENJOYING myself as a fighter, and want to tank poo poo for people  " after basically being afraid to try it due to past experience. Though that was as much Playing With Friends, as it was not playing 3.5 and Pathfinder with internet strangers causing Bad Sterotype results.
Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 01:41
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Really Pants posted:There's one big problem with this: no Warlords. Never don't have Warlords. With Essentials characters, or just in general?
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Aug 10, 2015 00:03
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P.d0t posted:With Essentials characters, or just in general? Mearls hates warlords, so they never got their own e-class. As such, if you run using only e-classes, you'll never have a warlord, and warlords are awesome.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:21
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ProfessorCirno posted:warlords are awesome. I would like to hear everyone's reasons for this, because I played with a rotating party that had 2 of them; the highest praise I could give for them was that the people playing them found the class "hilarious."
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Aug 10, 2015 00:37
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You know every climactic battle scene from every movie where things don't really kick off until the hero gives his thundering battle cry and then the good guys charge in and gently caress poo poo up? Warlords are that guy. They are the most cinematic class D&D has ever had. I don't know how else to describe it.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:46
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P.d0t posted:I would like to hear everyone's reasons for this, because I played with a rotating party that had 2 of them; the highest praise I could give for them was that the people playing them found the class "hilarious." Ok. How about : warlords are situationally awesome! Warlords want groups with heavy MBAs (which, surprise, mostly means big bruiser types, aka soldiers and martial characters). What warlords can do is completely flip a fight around. Completely re-arrange a battlefield, give literally everyone around an MBA or a charge, that sorta thing. Warlords are the champions at enabling - that is to say, while they aren't world class healers or world class buffers, they excel in moving people to be in the right spot, and then declaring it is now the right time. Other leaders like artificers are real good at being a passive force multiplier; because of me leading, you all get +x. Warlords are an ACTIVE force multiplier; because of me leading, you literally have your turns multiplied. The downside to warlords is that, if you DON'T have those strong MBAs, their effectiveness is cut down big time. If nobody can charge, it doesn't matter if you can give them free charges. If nobody needs to worry too much about positioning because they're all ranged, you can't really set up flanks or put baddies in compromising positions.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:51
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One of my favorite characters was an Inspiring Warlord. He fought up front with the fighters and barbarians, but could hold back and command the ranged from afar as well. His greatest strengths were his off-turn Heroic encounter powers, meaning his standard was free to at-will command the strikers to basic attack. There was also an encounter utility for Inspiring Warlords that let him call targets, granting his allies combat advantage and a damage boost, thrown on a Dragonborn who also had Dragonfear. This was on top of being one of the best healers in the game at his level. There honestly isn't anything like wielding a barbarian, let me tell you. Why should I need to attack? He's the one with the gouge.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:56
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P.d0t posted:I would like to hear everyone's reasons for this, because I played with a rotating party that had 2 of them; the highest praise I could give for them was that the people playing them found the class "hilarious." Flavor aside, from a purely mechanical standpoint, Warlords are the most ideal Leader in terms of 4e charop. Their powers grant party-wide mobility & extra attacks. In a suboptimal party they can help enforce an alpha strike; in an optimal one they can basically guarantee the fight's effectively (or absolutely) over by the end of round 2. And if the party needs more healing than the 3-4 Inspiring Words, the party has some serious problems.
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Aug 10, 2015 01:16
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I'm a selfish idiot who hates playing warlords because some of their strongest abilities are "Give up your action, so somebody else attacks instead". Even though I know logically that I'm basically using the Barbarian as my proxy weapon and that kicks all kinds of rear end. It Just Bugs Me. I fully admit I am super loving wrong for this to bug me. Because a warlord in the position to do it's thing is holy poo poo amazing (My friends keep playing Warlords in parties with next to nobody good at basic attack too, which hasn't helped my bias) I know it's suboptimal by comparison but I really like 4th Ed Artificer just because of how some of it's abilities work to my tastes. Particularly Magic Weapon, and Healing Infusion:Resistive Formula. Resistive infusion has made the cleric's life so much goddamned easier in that party's case, even if I'm pretty rear end at direct healing by comparison... Unless it's an injured NPC the module specifies "Has no healing surges", then I can heal those when the Cleric or Warlord can't
Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Aug 10, 2015 |
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Aug 10, 2015 01:24
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Artificer is loving awesome.
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Aug 10, 2015 03:59
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Section Z posted:I'm a selfish idiot who hates playing warlords because some of their strongest abilities are "Give up your action, so somebody else attacks instead". Even though I know logically that I'm basically using the Barbarian as my proxy weapon and that kicks all kinds of rear end. It Just Bugs Me. Free attack spam warlord is charop king but you can also just play "I help in less broken ways while also rolling my own attacks" warlord. Personally I have always preferred bard or cleric.
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Aug 10, 2015 04:14
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P.d0t posted:I would like to hear everyone's reasons for this, because I played with a rotating party that had 2 of them; the highest praise I could give for them was that the people playing them found the class "hilarious." I tend to judge Leaders based off of three different things. Healing, Defense, and Enable.
Of the three of these things, healing is the least important because healing is what you do after you have failed at preventing the damage from occurring; if you have damage to heal you've allowed the enemy to attack successfully. Defense is more important because defense prevents the need for healing and thusly it is more resource efficient; preventing hits preserves surges and eliminates the need for healing. However, for defense to matter you have to be allowing enemies to attack, which is decidedly worse than killing them before they can attack. Enable is the most important category, because enable prevents the need to heal damage by killing the enemies before they can deal damage. Killing enemies leads to shorter fights leads to fewer attacks against your party and less resources used. Enabling is by far the most efficient type of leadership and warlords are by far the best at enabling. Moving your team around, granting shifts, setting up off turn attacks, the warlord excels at all. You're a tremendous force multiplier as long as you've got some decent basic attacks around you, and I've had many fights as a Warlord where I come out feeling like I totally won that fight for the team. The Barbarian got the kills, but I set them all up. And it's not all lazylord bullshit where you just make the Barbarian attack, either. There's a ton of powers along the lines of "I hit then you hit" and the warlord can pack a pretty decent punch. The way I think of it, the warlord is a striker and the Barbarian is just its striker feature.
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Aug 10, 2015 04:18
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Seriously, with the barest minimum of your other players not being complete selfish assholes (read: you have a striker with a good MBA), the Warlord is a ridiculously powerful class. If you have an entire party of greatbow rangers and spellblades (the arcane defender), then yes, a Warlord is sub optimal. And even then they are still pretty great.
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Aug 10, 2015 05:52
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Section Z posted:I'm a selfish idiot who hates playing warlords because some of their strongest abilities are "Give up your action, so somebody else attacks instead". Even though I know logically that I'm basically using the Barbarian as my proxy weapon and that kicks all kinds of rear end. It Just Bugs Me. At that point, you play a Bravura Warlord and hoon around smacking things yourself and STILL giving free attacks. Or a Resourceful Warlord hitting things and giving out free attacks and/or massive buffs. The great thign with Warlords is that other play styles exist. You can play a warlord who hits poo poo with every standard action. You can play one who gets in the bad guys' face and takes risks in echange for bonuses to himself and his allies. Or you can play one who sits in the back line and plays chess with the party as his pieces. But, Artificers can be pretty great as well, so... Drewjitsu posted:If you have an entire party of greatbow rangers and spellblades (the arcane defender), then yes, a Warlord is sub optimal. And even then they are still pretty great. Warlords struggle with... actually almost no classes these days can't get a decent BA of some sort. Battleminds and Wizards, I guess, and even BMs have some options.
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Aug 10, 2015 08:31
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Here's my take on a lot of leaders. -Warlord is the master of enabling and smashing things up, though their defensive bonuses are a little lacking but still there. They really want martial party members but can make do with anyone with a good BA, yeah. -Cleric is the master of healing, and has a ton of synergy with both other divine classes and doing some multiclassing with other divine classes. A Cleric|Invoker is a very dangerous opponent. Their enabling and offensive buffs are a little behind but it's really hard to die with a cleric in the party. -Bards are the chessmasters, even moreso than Warlords. They can enable pretty well, but specialize in debuffing enemies and moving everyone all over the place. They don't get Reorient The Axis but they really don't need it since they can do about as well. They're kind of alright at everything, really, no real weak points. -Shamans do the opposite of Bards: they wall off portions of the map with either threats of damage or an actual straight up wallbear. They, like bards, are kind of party-neutral. The critter generally doesn't clump up the battlefield any more than another melee fighter does. IIRC they don't have much for enabling but they get off-turn stuff and that's one way to add to the offensive. -Runepriests are really complicated. The best way I can describe them is "the undisputed master of +1s", because they can freely choose whether to add defensive or offensive +1s and +2s in bursts all over the place. They're also surprisingly sturdy and capable of repelling folks who rush up to them. Their enabling afaik is nonexistent, but if you're willing to fiddle with it the Runepriest is liked by any party, period. -I've never seen an Ardent in play so i got nothing. -Sentinels are crummy. If you're using e-classes, use warpriest or skald instead. Unknown Quantity fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Aug 10, 2015 |
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Aug 10, 2015 15:39
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Unknown Quantity posted:-Shamans...IIRC they don't have much for enabling They have really good enabling. The at-will Spirit Infusion is I think the single strongest attack-granting power in the game (but requires killing off your spirit, effectively also eating your minor action), and they can pick Encounters & Dailies that pump out basic attacks.
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Aug 10, 2015 16:09
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Generic Octopus posted:They have really good enabling. The at-will Spirit Infusion is I think the single strongest attack-granting power in the game (but requires killing off your spirit, effectively also eating your minor action), and they can pick Encounters & Dailies that pump out basic attacks. It's a free action to resummon past Paragon and 1/round at Heroic with a feat which no shaman should ever not take. Clerics can be pretty beasty at buffing if played carefully and the right powers are picked. Ardents... well, they can do a bit of anything depending on build, but probably their strongest power is a secondary-stat defence penalty. The great thing with leaders though is how well they hybrid. A lot of them can do without their primary stat of have multiple primaries. A lot of them share primary and/or secondary stats. And a lot of them have weak levels which are well-complemented by each other. Artificer|Warlord is probably the strongest leader in the game if built right and can be made surprisingly party-independent. And yeah, Sentinels suck. They're not a leader, they're a... mess, really. They have Healing Word! Warpriests are highly variable depending on build. Some are great, some really stink. Skald I really don't like; they're decent at heroic, but they start running painfully into range limits on their aura at paragon+. Range 5 is really pretty short.
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Aug 10, 2015 16:43
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It would be pretty neat to have a breakdown like that for the other classes as well, just, y'know, in case anyone's been sitting on that.
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Aug 10, 2015 16:46
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Half-elf or tiefling fake skalds can be fun, since War Chanter means your allies want to be within 5 squares of you at all times anyways, but you're still going to feel the range restrictions if someone needs healing and they're too far away. Similarly an eladrin fake skald can do the whole "I had to walk once and it was awful" routine, but it is ridiculously feat-intensive. And in both cases you're taking advantage of the fact that the bard has more options as a skald than pure skalds do.
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Aug 10, 2015 17:23
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I can run something off reasonably quickly for some stuff. Strikers: striking is primarily about multi-attacks in 4e. Some strikers do manage appreciable single attacks, but mostly it's about hitting often, because static bonuses get applied to every hit. But at the same time, worth noting that it is easily possible to hit striker damage benchmarks entirely classlessly, by charging a lot and picking the right theme, multiclass and PP. Also that DPR isn't the only relevant measure, nova damage (i.e. how much you can KILL RIGHT NOW) is also important. Also worth noting that unless oyu do a LOT of it (both in the party and individually), multi-target attacking is pretty mediocre. Because things in 4e don't get any less effective (indeed, often get MORE effective) at low HP, killing one thing >>> wounding two or more. - Ranger: Melee or ranged, rangers are the once and future king of killing stuff, absent broken builds. They have access to the most native amounts of multi-attacks of any class, and the best striker at-will in the game with Twin Strike. They also have the Beastmaster, which is a horrible stinker unless you do the sensible thing and ignore the beast powers entirely. Archers minor in control. Decent at skills. Melee rangers can struggle a bit for defences because they like being STR/WIS. Striker mechanic: quarry. Once per round, mediocre damage, really not worth paying attention to. Strong MBA for melee and RBA for ranged. Melee can also do RBAs at a pinch but not so well. Mixing range doesn't work that well at all because of the stat requirements for ranged twin strike and ranged powers in general. Subclasses: Hunter (not a striker, pretty mediocre at its nominal role), Scout: melee, but dex-based so can do ranged at a pinch. Basically a worse version of the Ranger. - Rogue: solid. Kings of accuracy, excellent on skills, melee or short-range. Have some of the better encounter powers in the game, particularly Tumbling Strike, and a lot of native multi-attacks, but generally a little less good than rangers. Striker mechanic: Sneak ATtack. Once per turn, twice with AP, can be a LOT of damage, well worth focussing on. Good RBA, can get good MBA with the right build or items. Don't build Ruthless Ruffians, they suck. Subclass: Thief. Basically charges. Strong basic attacks, mediocre at other things without poaching Rogue powers. - Sorcerer: top tier if built correctly (and indeed, proud possessor of one of the few genuinely-broken builds in the game, in the Rebreather) but easy to do wrong. Nominally ranged, but likes being up close because the best powers are close bursts and blasts. All four builds are solid. Can and should have a solid MBA, as it has an MBA at-will, and RBA, ditto. Subclass: elementalist. Ranged primary but only really hugely effective with O-Sorc powers, at which point it goes right back to being pretty melee again. - Barbarian: solid. Variety of builds, including one quite leadery one and a two-weapon one which is basically a worse melee ranger. Tough, can take a licking, with some solid multi-attacks and the best encounter multi-attack in the game in Hurricane of Blows, as well as a great off-turn attack with an easy trigger in Curtain of Steel. Like the Ranger, can struggle on defences if you focus too hard on secondary stats. Striker damage mechanics are generally built into the powers, but they will also have a crit-based feature with will be decent to excellent depending on build. Strong MBA, better charge (because they should ALL have Howling Strike), maybe a decent RBA depending on loadout and build. Subclass: Berserker. A weird one, which can be basically another build of Barb with different class features, or (IMO but not most of the charop community's) a solid to decent defender. - Blackguard: Mediocre but can be optimised into parity with the second tier. - Hexblade: Awful, but ditto. - Vampire: Worse. - Warlock: very variable depending on build, and one of those exceptions to the 'multiattacks own' rule because of Curse. Will have either an MBA or an RBA but not both in most cases. Striker mechanic: Curse can stack up a TONNE of damage and is well worth focussing on especially with the Elemental Pact boon. Subclasses: Hexblade (see above) and Binder which is probably the worst subclass in the entire game, being as it is basically an O-Warlock but without Curse. - Avenger: another potentially big-damage class, mostly because of double rolls allowing uber crits. Can and shoudl usually have an MBA, but this requires a specific feat (power of skill) to attain. Striker mechanic: Oath - absolutely amazing, to the point where other classes MC avenger just for a round of it. Makes them super-accurate and critty. Builds are pretty much of a muchness; the bulk of the class is in oath and in the powers. No subclasses. Needs Dragon support quite badly. - Monk: Kind of a mixed bag, and again, very variable depending on build. Can go from primary defender to controller to primary striker depending how you work it. Needs care to be taken because it's got a lot of multi-target stuff which isn't the best strategvy in 4e a lot of the time. Can have an MBA but this is feat- or item-dependent so it's less good. Could have an RBA depending on equipment. Striker mechanic: Flurry, very variable, pretty solid. No subclasses. - Slayer: Very tough, solid charger, can pick up a range of excellent multi-attacks from the Fighter, and wields big-rear end beatsticks. Top-tier if build correctly, dull as poo poo and not very good if using only essentials materials. Obviously will have an excellent MBA, may also have an RBA at a pinch but it won't be good. A Warlord's best friend thanks to its damage mechanic, which is just straight +Stat to damage on all the things. Honourable mention: O-fighter. O-fighters have MASSES of support including a plethora of excellent striker powers at most levels (Rain of Blows, Trip Up, Bash and Pummel in particular), plus easily-procced off-turn attacks. In some semblance of order, at moderate-to-high but not extreme optimisation I'd probably go something like: - Melee Ranger - Sorcerer - Archer Ranger - Melee Rogue - Barbarian - Slayer - Avenger - Ranged Rogue - Warlock - Monk ... Blackguard, Hexblade, Vampire. But obviously, this all depends hugely on what level you're playing at as to exactly what tier things will be, because PP 11/16 features and Epic make huge differences. I'm not around for the next week or two or I'd do a few more.
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Aug 10, 2015 17:54
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I'll see what I can put together for Defenders! The name of the game for defenders is twofold: 1) how many people/how well can you lock people down? and 2) how well can you punish your target? Most defenders specialize in either locking people down or being mobile enough that their mark target can't escape the mark punishment. They generally benefit from any kind of increase to their mark's punishment such as additional status effects, as well as any feats or the presence of classes that increase their mobility (or slide enemies directly into their meat grinder zone.) -First up, Paladins! Their primary means of punishing their marks is smacking them in the face for a pretty substantial load of damage. They're also the second-toughest of the defenders, but it's a very small margin. They have some stickiness issues but they can get around it and are just very good all-around guys to have around if you have folks like rogues who like flanking and keeping an enemy stuck between a rock and a hard place. Defender-based subclass: Cavalier. Cavalier does automatic damage with an aura and can take a hit for an ally. For an E-class it isn't as amazing as an o-paladin but it's still fun enough to play, especially if you picture your cavalier dolphin diving to save a friend every single time. Also holds the "honor" of being the only class that requires a specific alignment. In this case, Lawful Good. -Second, Fighters! Fighters range wildly in their stickiness, but in general they're good at locking a single target down and womping on it for fairly decent, or in some builds, near-striker damage. The Brawler build is weird in that it becomes really sticky on one dude but it trades damage potential and things like Reach, which is one of a Fighter's best friends. Fairly durable, though might crumple in an extended fight. Defender Subclass: Knight. Knight as I recall is actually a very solid e-class defender. Able to handle and deal with multiple opponents since their punisher is an OA (1/turn) rather than an immediate (1/round). ABSURDLY sticky, especially with a hammer in hand. -Third, Wardens! Wardens can often be a DM's worst nightmare: they can trap multiple people, are very adept at making sure they never leave unless they have flat-out teleportation, and are either tied with or even sturdier than Paladins. Their damage is less than a fighter or 'din, but if you want a class that emulates a black hole, the Warden is what you want. Also has fun primal source synergy! -Fourth, Swordmage! The swordmage generally doesn't focus on stickiness so much as always being able to punish their mark. They're free to do whatever after marking their target, including focusing on other targets, since no matter what the opponent does they can just teleport over and smack that idiot for disobeying the mark. Gets a ton of int and heavy blade synergy bonuses, is incredibly mobile, and if you don't need hard control, welcome to a party. -Now for Battlemind! I'm going to be honest, I haven't played a Battlemind, but from what I recall they're similar to Swordmages but trade damage for various penalties and debuffs. Someone else handle the remaining defenders, I'm afraid I'm not very familiar with Bladesinger or any of the others I'm missing.
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Aug 10, 2015 19:05
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Unknown Quantity posted:
As far as I can tell with battleminds the correct way to play them is with Brutal Barrage to actually be a really good striker.
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Aug 10, 2015 20:19
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Gort posted:DMG, page 184 has the formulae for making Monster Manual 1 monsters. From a while ago, but thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for. I really need to go through the core books again, despite a few warts here and there they are great books.
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Aug 10, 2015 21:02
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Madmarker posted:As far as I can tell with battleminds the correct way to play them is with Brutal Barrage to actually be a really good striker. Battleminds are quite good defenders, they just don't work the way they were meant to. The core package of Blurred Step and Mind Spike requires an intimidating opportunity attack to work, and battleminds don't have anything like that by default (or with anything short of a lot of work and paragon). This ignores the fact that Mind Spike has unclear value to begin. What makes the battlemind tick is that as a psionic class it can effectively recycle encounter powers. A solid battlemind optimises around a one- or two-power gimmick, and then chooses the rest of the powers to cover any gaps. That means there isn't really a consistent battlemind style. I've played two. One was the closest thing there is to vanilla, which means building around Lightning Rush - a very mobile pinball of "touch my friends and I'll smack you good." The other defended using battlefield control - Concussive Spike to clear out everyone but the target, Lodestone Lure to lock the target down. Very different in play, but both did the job.
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Aug 10, 2015 21:06
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Yeah, like the other psionic classes, Battleminds are all about making the most out of a single power, and it so happens that they get one of the best immediates in the game at level 7. Plus there's the striker build at high levels making use of Brutal Barrage and Brilliant Recovery's oddities. If only you didn't have to be a half-elf to get a decent OA. The class I'm really interested in is the Druid; they seem like total oddballs next to the other controllers.
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Aug 10, 2015 21:17
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Fortunately, the Bladesinger isn't a defender, it's a controller (unfortunately, it's got problems as a primary controller as well). The only defender you're missing other than the Battlemind is maybe the Berserker, which is some combination of knight-esque defender and barbarian striker, but it's far easier for it to switch gears from defender to striker than it is to go in reverse. Thanks to Poised Defender you can have excellent even at the low levels and while not using a shield. Since you're not tied to a secondary stat other than the fact that you use light armor, you can technically run an Intelligence-secondary berserker; not really the best choice since Dexterity boosts your initiative and more of your skills, but still there for the novelty. Points regarding the defenders already mentioned. -Fighters: Fighters have some of the best support in the game from feats to paragon paths, and it's not uncommon for other defenders to multiclass into fighter just to take advantage of their sweet stuff, especially stuff revolving around weapon types (such as polearms or hammers and shields). Fighters are pretty sticky thanks to Combat Superiority, which makes it so all of their OAs will actually flat-out stop an opponent from walking by, and while they can't do the same with Combat Challenge they can make an MBA if a marked target attempts to shift away. Since fighters specifically use MBAs for mark punishment, there's a lot of fun optimization tricks you can use that take advantage of all the various MBA boosters and weapon-styles, such as Lashing Flail to slide the target of your MBA, and Flail Expertise to prone anyone you slide, or things like Deft Blade/Impaling Spear to boost your accuracy on MBAs, or Pinning Challenge to immobilize any marked target you hit with an MBA. -Paladins: Paladin punishment is unique in that they're the only class whose native punishments take no action to use. Opponent makes an attack against an ally, opponent takes damage, no roll or action required, which means that paladins with the right abilities can sort of keep trucking even when they're dazed, stunned or dominated, while other defenders are all bound to their immediate actions, or their opportunity actions in the case of the knight/berserker/cavalier (which is better for defending because you can punish multiple foes per round). They have several powers that let them spread out marks en-masse that also require no action to enforce, which lets them lock down a crowd of enemies instead of playing mark chicken like immediate action defenders who multimark (where as soon as you've actually used your OA, the others can act with less fear). The no-action nature of their marks means that they're one of the best classes in the game for punishment stacking, letting them double up by throwing in an immediate or opportunity action attack on top of their normal punishment if an enemy violates their mark, either through various paladin encounter powers or through things like multiclassing into Fighter and picking up Polearm Master or something. If they really get going you can have situations where the paladin's mark will damage an opponent, halve the opponent's damage and heal the ally with no action required, allowing the paladin to then damage the opponent further with an immediate action attack. Paladins have very nice leader-secondary options as well; while they can't enable like a true leader can they can still pick up some of the slack for healing and save-granting to let the leader focus on buffing and enabling. -Cavaliers have the crummiest defender punishment (paladin-level damage, but requires an OA instead of no action/free action), but are also the only class in the game who can pick up a mount that scales in level with them. -Swordmage: Swordmages are unlike other defenders in that marking a dude and then wandering off to do your own thing on the field is a pretty valid strategy, because it forces the enemy to either attack your allies and eat your mark punishment or eat OAs from your allies and come to you or shoot at you. This means they can hybrid well with some other ranged classes like warlocks to create a tanky and damaging defender.
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Aug 10, 2015 21:31
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Dire Wombat posted:The class I'm really interested in is the Druid; they seem like total oddballs next to the other controllers. I'd rather let someone else write up controllers, but basically, there's hard control (dominate/daze/stun) and soft control (minuses to hit, combat advantage, sliding/proning, blowing up piles of minions). Druids have little in the way of hard control but specialize in soft control like no other, mostly due to their beast form stuff. Their spell at-wills are nice, but building a druid that's primarily in caster form with beast form as backup is less effective than beast form primary with spell form as secondary. You could almost say each controller (except Wizard) specializes in 2-3 control effects. In this case, Druid's are Slide and Prone. Unknown Quantity fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Aug 10, 2015 |
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Aug 10, 2015 21:42
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Dire Wombat posted:The class I'm really interested in is the Druid; they seem like total oddballs next to the other controllers. Druids are weird because they don't have nearly as many superb encounter and daily powers as wizards and invokers do outside of Charm Beast (which is an EoNT domination as encounter power... at level 7). One gimmick I've seen involves using Staggering Smash to push anyone you daze, and then MCing fighter for Polearm Momentum so you can prone them by using an Alfsair spear as an implement, which is some decent control options. Also, the lycanthrope themes count as beast form for the purpose of druid powers, so you can be a werewolf protector druid and still have the ability to use druid beast powers even though you don't have wild shape, and at level 10 you can enter hybrid form so you can use any and all of your powers and just never stop being a bearman in every fight.
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Aug 10, 2015 21:53
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The weird thing about druid is that it seems like two classes stapled together. One is a nature based caster and the other is a transforming melee character.
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Aug 10, 2015 22:10
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Paladins are also BEASTS at epic thanks to a couple of stellar feats, and one of only two classes to remain really relevant, where others really struggle once everything starts teleporting, flying, having giant reach, and condition-shedding. Plus, monsters start being much more liberal with status effects. Overall, I think a well-built Paladin is probably the best defender class over the life of the game, but Fighters are second to none earlier on. Especially because their OAs stop movement, which makes them REALLY hard to get away from. Properly built Knights and Berserkers are also very solid, but aura defenders generally suffer from a serious weakness to forced movement and a real practical tactical difficulty in positioning and the sequence in which enemies act. I'm also pretty bad at controllers in general so I'm not going to write them up. I just find them waaaay too fiddly to play and they roll too many dice, plus I tend to like melee bashy types anyway. Basically though, controllers are the worst-defined role and the one most heavily dipped into by other classes since added control is basically how powers are made interesting. And given that, Wizards >>>>> basically everything at most levels because they got by far the most love on powers.
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Aug 10, 2015 22:35
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Paladins suffer from their mark punishment only being a bit of damage, so it's a lot easier to ignore them and a lot harder for them to punish enemies. Fighters are strong through Epic because their punishment is the best. Mix and match and you can be smacking dudes so hard they go flying thirty feet away and land on their back every time you punish a fucker. The main thing to remember with fighters is that they have more then just their mark. They're a wall. Only you also have a black hole inside. Anyone who gets close isn't getting out - and they have plenty of powers to MAKE people get close. Mind you, none of this is touching hybrids. Paladins can make for some real mean hybrids if you start abusing vuln. And swordmages can get real mean when you hybrid them with a class that offers an intense MBA and maybe some other immediate action support. Which in both cases is "warlock." So, warlock. Warlocks are hard for me to make, simply because every time I make a warlock, I have to ask myself "why aren't I hybriding?" Warlocks are amazing hybrids. Warlocks already have a lot of support for being half-something else, half-striker; you're just nudging them that little bit further. Swordmage|Warlocks are maybe some of the best defenders. Swordmage|Warlocks can also be great strikers for focusing on off-turn attacks with a minor in defending (rather then the other way around). Paladin|Warlocks amp the gently caress out of the paladin mark punishment. Warlord|Warlocks can be crazy striker-leaders. Executioner|Warlocks are really great, if dull, MBA/Charge strikers, who end up taking a minor in Leader. Etc, etc, etc. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Aug 10, 2015 |
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Aug 10, 2015 23:00
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Paladins get Weakening Challenge in Epic which is awesome when everything on the board has to attack you or deal half damage. Fighters are amazing... if the enemy actually stays beside you.
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Aug 10, 2015 23:06
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ProfessorCirno posted:Mind you, none of this is touching hybrids. Paladins can make for some real mean hybrids if you start abusing vuln. This. The Radiant Mafia is an amazing party gimmick and should be attempted at least once.
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Aug 10, 2015 23:08
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