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Racing the Enemy (probably files, whole book in PDF, do not care) by T. Hasegawa is a really nice, kinda post-revisionist book on the atomic bombings!
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Aug 9, 2015 22:36
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steinrokkan posted:, the best weapons issued to the civilians were firelock guns looted from museums, and most people only received either bamboo spears, or common civilian tools and were told to improvise with them. Do you have a citation for this? I see it bandied about pretty frequently, but from what I know of the US military disposing of small arms after the armistice (mainly by dumping them into Tokyo bay by the boatload) they still had a significant number on hand. Obviously not enough to arm the entire japanese population, but i don't think it would have been a landing opposed by formations looking like Hegel's men either.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:18
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Cyrano4747 posted:Do you have a citation for this? I see it bandied about pretty frequently, but from what I know of the US military disposing of small arms after the armistice (mainly by dumping them into Tokyo bay by the boatload) they still had a significant number on hand. Obviously not enough to arm the entire japanese population, but i don't think it would have been a landing opposed by formations looking like Hegel's men either. https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ision/final.pdf This is a detailed planning document which essentially gives a green go-to to an attack against what they call the "Tokyo Plains" of Kyushu, which makes it different from the popular idea that the primary attack would take place on the beaches of Shikoku. This plan, from a naval point of view, estimates the following: 10 BBs, 26 CAs, 33CLs, 22 CVs, 365 DDs, and many other ships, including obsolete battleships, would take part in the invasion. Given the amphibious force supported by this naval fleet, the ground detachment could expect the following casualties, once again according to the CIA: 190k to control the Tokyo plain from the beaches; 240k to extend the control to further regions of Kyushu. All in all the CIA analyst board (well, CIA didn!t exist by then, but the OSS did ) concluded that the present amphibious force could control Kyushu under acceptable casualties with no contribution from either the Chinese, or the Soviet on the Home Islands of Japan.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:34
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steinrokkan posted:https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ision/final.pdf I'm not asking about the American plans, I'm asking about the plans of the IJA to use antiquated weapons. Again, I've always been a tad skeptical about how wide spread this would have been due to the fact that Japan didn't to my knowledge have a serious shortage of small arms in 1945.
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Aug 9, 2015 23:42
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Rabhadh posted:Such a palesman 
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Aug 9, 2015 23:48
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Deteriorata posted:If you want more detail see the D&D thread TheLoveablePlutonis referenced. Actually, do not do this. It's really goddamned bad.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:04
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Cyrano4747 posted:I'm not asking about the American plans, I'm asking about the plans of the IJA to use antiquated weapons. Again, I've always been a tad skeptical about how wide spread this would have been due to the fact that Japan didn't to my knowledge have a serious shortage of small arms in 1945. It's pretty obvious; The defense plans of the Kyushu Island in 1945 were initially based on the Ketsu-Go strategic initiative, which was later found impossible, on account of lacking forces; Before the critical situation of the defenders became known, it was decided that each machine gun would receive 25,000 rounds, and each infantry rifle would receive 250 rounds allotted over a period of three months!!! Such amounts of ammunition were absolutely laughable given the experience of the previous battles. Such resource provisiouns would barely scratch the attacking force. In case of an amphibious attack, a single infantry division displaced from Kirishima was projected to be fully available, accompanied by an armored brigade (and we know how advanced the Japanese armor was). Still, in 1945. the defending force was instructed to seek a decisive battle within the Home Islands, hoping for a reversal of fortune. In short, the Japanese had no response to an American invasion, and were quite aware of it, proposing a suicidal defense over a surrender. The main source for these conclusions is the Japanese Monographs record published during the war, and made available by various universities.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:04
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Actually, do not do this. It's really goddamned bad. I even said so!
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Aug 10, 2015 00:08
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Cyrano4747 posted:Do you have a citation for this? steinrokkan posted:It's pretty obvious; Duh!  quote:In case of an amphibious attack, a single infantry division displaced from Kirishima was projected to be fully available, accompanied by an armored brigade (and we know how advanced the Japanese armor was). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_3_Chi-Nu Advanced enough that they could put up a fight against the M4. Numbers produced is pitifully small against allied numbers, but after that we have the argument of what sort of situation would give either tank an advantage over the other. quote:The main source for these conclusions is the Japanese Monographs record published during the war, and made available by various universities. Source your loving quotes, bottom of the page.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:21
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Duh! The main documents include Admiral Leahy's reports to the office of the President. Further information is mainly recorded from the monograph publications No. 17 - 20 ('"Homeland Operations Record, Vol. I - III Combined with the XVI Army Archives for 1944 - 1945 within the general archives) ; more important were the Monographs 85 (which included both an assesment of the Japanese industrial capacity post-defeat-of-the-manchuoko-force), as well as the relative naval force remaining at sea with fuel; the same document also records the estimate air force of the Empire, and its fuel reserves. In contrast to the general strategic estimates of the Monograph 85, the Monograph 86 contains extensive operational records covering mainly the Iwo island system within the case study of the 5th air fleet of the US forces. Further mpnpgraphs of the Pacific campaign may be accessed here: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/Monos/index.html as opposed to the CIA records of the Japanese invasion of China, which is maily recorded in a separate series of reports.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:47
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Deteriorata posted:Short answer: the invasion of Okinawa demonstrated pretty conclusively that invading the home islands was going to be a horrific bloodbath for everyone involved, so an alternative that would induce the Japanese to surrender without an invasion was badly needed. Instead of DnD, I'd dig through this site: http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/ Dude *really* knows his stuff.
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Aug 10, 2015 01:19
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Taiping Tianguo Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 Part 14 Part 15 Part 16 Part 17 Part 18 Capital Punishment While the western and northern expeditions were underway, fighting continued in every direction in the vicinity of Nanjing. Xiang Rong's southern barracks maintained a continual presence, but was weakened by the constant need to reinforce other imperial armies. The best chance to seize the city comes early in the fall of 1853. Zhang Bingyuan, tutor to Wei Changhui's children, concocts a plot, aided by some of the other disaffected, educated men in Nanjing. They are able to secure the the participation of several thousand soldiers (generally newer recruits, not Guangxi veterans). This party is to open the gates to an imperial force led by Zhang Guoliang, former bandit and one of the more competent imperial commanders on the battlefield. Zhang Bingyuan had been arrested before the plot kicked off, but the Taiping had only the word of an informant and no concrete details, so the plan went ahead. The Taiping detected it at the last moment, however. Zhang Guoliang's men are greeted with cannon fire instead of an open gate. The men who were to seize the gate had found instead a temporary barricade constructed to guard the inside of the gate and had been captured. The plot stymied, many of the plotters manage to quietly slip away but hundreds are captured and executed. Zhang Bingyuan performs one last service to the imperialists, however, before being executed. Under interrogation, he names the names of 34 "co-conspirators" in the highest levels of Taiping administration. It is not until after these men are executed that Yang Xiuqing realizes the list of names has only one thing in common- they are all talented men whose loss will hurt the Taiping greatly. The Death Zone  Meanwhile, fighting raged in north Anhui at Luzhou and other cities, campaigns in which Li Hongzhang for the imperialists and Li Xiucheng for the Taiping would rise to prominence. In south Anhui, fighting continues and Wuhu is taken and retaken 8 times- severing communications between Anqing and Nanjing is an imperial priority. The many maps showing the approximate extent of Taiping control do a poor job of conveying the confusion of the fighting all up and down the Yangtze basin. Control of a given city by no means meant control of the countryside. In many cases the tuanlian militia, useless in pitched battle, proved effective at its goal of maintaining imperial control and organization in small villages near Taiping held cities. On the other side, the imperial government would often not have the time or manpower to reconstitute civil administration and would leave Taiping established village organizations unmolested as they recaptured cities. So instead of a smooth line of control, imagine a tangled mess of exclaves and pseudopods as the boundary between Taiping and imperial territory. Traversing this no man's land was a challenge. Bandits, deserters, and soldiers for either side posed a risk to any civilian unlucky enough to be in the middle. One merchant recounts hiding in a cellar for weeks until his hair had grown out enough to pass as a Taiping. Taiping deserters might try the opposite trick- shaving their foreheads and braiding a queue, only to be given away by the tell-tale tanlines. The Taiping eventually set up a system of wooden identification placards to control passage through their territory. There were apparently enough men brave enough to make the trip, as trade in silk and other commodities continues and exports eventually reach new highs, despite western reports of the Taiping as being ruin to trade. Barbarians at the gate To the east, the Taiping advanced as far as Yangzhou, but had drawn back as the troops were needed in an attempt to salvage the northern expedition. Much of the fighting in the east will center around Zhenjiang. This city is the eastern door to Nanjing as Anqing is in the west, and must be held at all costs. The imperial attempts to siege the city in 1853 and 1854 are futile, but they tie up Taiping forces and prevent any attempt to link up with the Small Swords in Shanghai. Zhenjiang is garrisoned by Wu Ruxiao and Lo Dagang, when the latter is not called away on other campaigns as described previously. Manchu general Duominga leads an army to take Guazhou on the northen bank across from Zhenjiang. His Manchurian cavalry prove poorly suited to the marshy terrain and after several defeats in the field opts to slowly encircle and starve the city out. In 1855 construction begins on a large ditch around the city. This both threatens Guazhou and Zhenjiang as well. The latter city is dependent on food imports from the area between Guazhou and Yangzhou. The capital has no food to spare, so Zhenjiang must somehow find a way.  The 10,000 man garrison under Wu Ruxiao holds out for all of 1854 despite several attacks from imperial general Deng Shaoliang. A small relief force from Nanjing is intercepted and annihilated that November. The next spring, Manchu general Jierhanga brings reinforcements to the besiegers. These troops had been besieging the Small Swords in Shanghai and are finally free to turn back to the Taiping. Imperial forces now number at least 20,000, double the Taiping. Jierhanga, perhaps cognizant of the Taiping reputation for ferocity in close combat, declines to assault but instead tightens the siege. Zhenjiang is running low on food and too outnumbered to sally forth and attack the besiegers. Something must be done, or the imperial army will have a clear path upriver to Nanjing. Mayday Yang Xiuqing recalls the kingdoms top generals with orders to return immediately. All obey. Qin Rigang, Chen Yucheng, and others return from Hubei, even though it means going back on the defensive and leaving the Wuchang garrison to hold out alone. Shi Dakai likewise moves out without hesitation, a decision which proves to be the salvation of Zeng Guofan and his remaining men bottled up at Nanchang. Wei Changhui does not even wait for the reinforcements before trying (unsuccessfully) to clear a path to Zhenjiang. (Absent from this convergence is Luo Dagang, who was killed by a cannonball in fighting at Wuhu in late 1855. His loss will be felt as imperial naval forces gradually gain the upper hand through 1856.) As soon as the returning troops arrive at the capital, an army is organized under Qin Rigang (Shi Dakai has not yet arrived), assisted by Chen Yucheng and Li Xiucheng. Now able to match imperial numbers, they push east along the river, slowly making progress depsite the resistance of Deng Shaoliang, Zhang Guoliang, and Jierhanga. At last they get in range of the city. Qin wants to attack simultaneously with Wu's garrison. Chen Yucheng personally volunteers to go alone to deliver the message. He succeeds in sailing past imperial lines at night in a tiny boat and makes contact with Wu. The imperial besiegers are attacked the next day from both directions at once and crushed. Meanwhile, the empire's own reinforcements dispatched from the southern barracks are ambushed and destroyed by Li Xiucheng. The victory is just in time, as the city is empty of food. The Taiping immediately rush north to attack Yangzhou. The city is taken easily; in a stroke of good fortune, general Lei Yixian is throwing an all out birthday extravaganza, and Duominga and the rest of the imperial high command are in attendance. The no doubt thoroughly drunk generals are forced to flee for their lives in the footsteps of their leaderless troops who have already panicked at the sight of the approaching Taiping army. The Taiping do not seek to hold the city long, instead gethering food for the relief of Zhenjiang and then retreating back across the river. The imperialists north of the river will eventually return to siege Guazhou again, but to little effect. Checkmate Qin Rigang then attacks and scatters the remaining imperial forces in the vicinity of Zhenjiang. He next prepares to return to Nanjing. Meanwhile, Shi Dakai has been fighting his way back north, with an army bolstered by large numbers of Triad troops (the the fighting prowess of these new recruits falls short of typical Taiping standards, but gets the job done). These forces will coverge in June on the Southern imperial Barracks under command of Xiang Rong. Yang Xiuqing issues orders that the armies are not to enter Nanjing until the barracks have fallen, and they are to attack immediately. There are only a few thousand men at the barracks, most having been sent off to reinforce imperial armies at Zhenjiang and elsewhere. Few make it back in time to assist. Zhang Guoliang puts up stiff resistance, but after three days of fighting, all he can manage is to get Xiang Rong and a few men out of the barracks before the entire system of forts falls. They take refuge in Danyang. The stress of yet another defeat is too much for the elderly Xiang Rong, who falls ill and will die shortly thereafter.  So the summer of 1856 leaves the Taiping movement at a crossroads. On the negative, they have blown their best chance for a knockout blow with the failure of the northern expedition. They have achieved limited success in the west, but at the risk of being bogged down in a war of attrition. On the upside, the Qing, meanwhile, are dealing with multiple other revolts and a looming conflict with the western powers. The recent huge Taiping victory has removed any threat to the capital and given the movement a chance to regain the initiative. Yang Xiuqing now has space to breathe and complete freedom of action to choose his next move. And therein lies the problem.
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Aug 10, 2015 04:39
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What good milhist books are on audible? Got a few leftover credits.
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Aug 10, 2015 04:54
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Thanks for another Taiping post. I can't believe how much there is to this. Well, actually I can considering the scale of the conflict.
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Aug 10, 2015 05:24
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As a complete rear end in a top hat who don't know poo poo : Cyrano is asking for a citation of bamboo spears*, could you please provide such to advance your prior claim? Or spears generally. Or whatever. Something vis a vis issuing hand weapons since his question is about if Japan really lacked small arms. Jesus christ, not to make this the Venting About Students thread, but reading comprehension is your friend. *I think. Please correct if I'm wrong. See above being some random moron.
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Aug 10, 2015 05:40
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I found this article which mentions an inspection conducted by a "Premier Suzuki" of the weapons being brought out to arm militias. It was written in 1965 and for "Marine Corps Magazine", though, so new scholarship for more specialized audiences might have passed it by:quote:The Japanese leaders might be publicly calling for a struggle of flesh against iron, of spirit against materiel, in the Japanese tradition (which, after all, despised surrender). And the Diet might be passing a "volunteer military service" law for boys of 15 and men of 60, for girls of 17 and women of 40. But even the highest-ranking government were horrified at the Army's primitive notions for militia defense. In July 1945, Premier Suzuki and his associates were invited to visit an amazing display of weapons to be issued the Japanese citizenry: Single-shot, muzzle-loading muskets; longbows and arrows (effective range 30-40 meters, hit probability 50%, said the placards); bamboo spears; pitchforks. The ordinarily phlegmatic old prime minister mumbled to his secretary, "This is awful!" The secretary agreed, in fury and despair. There was a limit to deceiving the people, he felt; this was hardly a sane way of fighting in the 20th Century. Something must be done to achieve peace....
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Aug 10, 2015 05:46
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Xiahou Dun posted:As a complete rear end in a top hat who don't know poo poo : Cyrano is asking for a citation of bamboo spears*, could you please provide such to advance your prior claim? Or spears generally. Or whatever. Something vis a vis issuing hand weapons since his question is about if Japan really lacked small arms. Here's a quote from a teenage girl who was given an awl and told to stab an American soldier in the abdomen, and the article mentions spears being deployed.
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Aug 10, 2015 05:57
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Antti posted:Yeah, Richard Todd. Veterans playing themselves or in a movie covering a operation they were themselves in is one of my favourite movie trivia categories. Fruity loving Rudy. P-Mack posted:I remember my dad saying that when he was in basic he was specifically told "throw it like a baseball, not the dumb way they do it in movies." Aka throw it like a real man non an effete english nance. steinrokkan posted:This is a detailed planning document which essentially gives a green go-to to an attack against what they call the "Tokyo Plains" of Kyushu, which makes it different from the popular idea that the primary attack would take place on the beaches of Shikoku. I have never heard that the primary landings would take place on Shikoku, always Kyushu. What page is Tokyo plains mentioned anyway? Cuz... that's on Honshu. Frostwerks fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Aug 10, 2015 |
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Aug 10, 2015 06:14
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Even if if the Japanese militias did have guns it's hard to imagine they'd be able to use them very effectively, considering their food distribution system was in the process of completely collapsing. Hard to put up a fight when you're starving to death.
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Aug 10, 2015 08:38
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Happy Science guys did an article on the bombs, too.
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Aug 10, 2015 09:26
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HEY GAL posted:that dude owns for the sole and simple reason that because his name sounds like the german word for death all his company flags had skulls on them Strongly agreed, he's buried in the cathedral here in Turku and his tomb is p fantastic though there's no good photos of it online apparently: http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/18/ae/c0/tomb-of-ake-tott-and.jpg Since I was doing a bit of research on the guy for a thing, I found out that apparently they still have his suit of armor around but it has been in the cathedral museum for restauration for the last 30 years or so.
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Aug 10, 2015 09:31
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The Taiping Tianguo sounds like an amazing Game of Thrones TV series for HBO- I'm surprised Harry Turtledove hasn't converted it to a 20 book series considering all the heroes and villains involved. We briefly studied the US civil war, but I'm amazed I knew/know practically nothing about a conflict happening at the same time that was 1000 times bloodier and probably had just as big an impact in the scheme of things.
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Aug 10, 2015 10:44
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Squalid posted:Even if if the Japanese militias did have guns it's hard to imagine they'd be able to use them very effectively, considering their food distribution system was in the process of completely collapsing. Hard to put up a fight when you're starving to death. The model for imagining an invasion of the Home Islands isn't Iwo Jima or Okinawa, it's to look further West at Slim's campaign in Burma. He neatly demonstrated that if you have a bit of space to play with and don't have to attack headfirst up mountain ridges then it's perfectly possible to take apart a Japanese army with very few losses.
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Aug 10, 2015 10:45
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Kemper Boyd posted:I was doing a bit of research on the guy for a thing
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Aug 10, 2015 10:48
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HEY GAL posted:post the thing Whenever I'm done with the thing I will!
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Aug 10, 2015 10:49
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Alchenar posted:The model for imagining an invasion of the Home Islands isn't Iwo Jima or Okinawa, it's to look further West at Slim's campaign in Burma. He neatly demonstrated that if you have a bit of space to play with and don't have to attack headfirst up mountain ridges then it's perfectly possible to take apart a Japanese army with very few losses. I've got some bad news about Japan's geography.
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Aug 10, 2015 11:44
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I've got some bad news about Japan's geography. More firebombing it is!
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Aug 10, 2015 12:42
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I've got some bad news about Japan's geography. Burma is all mountains and jungle. You just need enough space not to have to make frontal attacks against fortified positions.
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Aug 10, 2015 12:55
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So I was watching TV with my Great-granduncle (i think?) who fought WW2 in the Baltics, and some dogs came on. He told me that those dogs were the ones that the Red Cross used, and that quote "Not even the Russians would shoot them" I also have a book from 1910 (that talks about how devastating the Franco-Prussian war was, lol u aint seen nothing), and it also me ntions Red Cross dogs. How long back does this practice go? I feel like if anything dogs were used for killing, not saving people for the majority of history.
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Aug 10, 2015 13:02
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I'm reading through Silent Victory on the recommendation of the thread, and while it's very thorough and detailed for anyone who's really interested in the nuts and bolts of American submarine development and their deployment in the Pacific of WW2, it's not the most accessible or readable book I've ever encountered. It goes through almost every single war patrol conducted by US subs during the war and notes their claimed kills, their credited kills, and any postwar revisions from Japanese records about the damage they actually inflicted, and that's typical for the level of detail this book goes into. If you're really interested in the subject I recommend it, but if your interest is more casual you may want to skip it.
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Aug 10, 2015 13:14
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That D&D thread about the atomic attacks is really opening my eyes to some issues.
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Aug 10, 2015 14:28
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bewbies posted:That D&D thread about the atomic attacks is really opening my eyes to some issues. I don't dare look at it, what "issues" are we talking about?
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Aug 10, 2015 14:32
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The necessity to euthanize Tezzor.
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Aug 10, 2015 14:35
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it's a who's who of all the worse dnd posters all contained in one like israel it is a convenient way to herd all the bad posters in one easily nukable location
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Aug 10, 2015 14:39
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Alchenar posted:The model for imagining an invasion of the Home Islands isn't Iwo Jima or Okinawa, it's to look further West at Slim's campaign in Burma. He neatly demonstrated that if you have a bit of space to play with and don't have to attack headfirst up mountain ridges then it's perfectly possible to take apart a Japanese army with very few losses. I'm not really familiar with the parallels between the Burma campaign and Downfall/Olympic/Coronet, can you expand on this a bit?
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Aug 10, 2015 14:41
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Have there been any really good books written or translated to English about the French Indochina War? Hell, what are some good milhist books y'all have picked up lately? For my part I'm looking forward to cracking open The Military Leadership of Matilda of Canossa.
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Aug 10, 2015 14:55
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There are a lot of books out there about Dien Bien Phu, including one by Giap himself.
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Aug 10, 2015 15:00
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bewbies posted:I'm not really familiar with the parallels between the Burma campaign and Downfall/Olympic/Coronet, can you expand on this a bit? Slim exploited the tendency of Japanese generals to treat the first threat they see as the main one and to leave no administrative margin of error in their operations plans to draw out their Burma armies and then destroy them. The Japanese were unable to even come close to meeting their planned needs for defending Kyushu, and their plan involved launching a counter attack on what they perceived to be the main beachhead. Given what happened in Burma it seems entirely plausible that this counter-attack would have been broken up (either through massed firepower or just fighting it out until the Japanese ran out of ammo and food) and then the limit-of-advance line reached quite easily.
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Aug 10, 2015 15:14
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bewbies posted:That D&D thread about the atomic attacks is really opening my eyes to some issues. It kind of reads like there is a debate to be had if only people would stop shouting at each other and casting aspersions on their intent. Which is really depressing  Frostwerks posted:I have never heard that the primary landings would take place on Shikoku, always Kyushu. What page is Tokyo plains mentioned anyway? Cuz... that's on Honshu. Part 2 of Operation Downfall (Coronet) would have been a straight-up dash for Tokyo, supported by aircraft from airfields captured in Kyushu during Olympic.
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Aug 10, 2015 15:37
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Hell, what are some good milhist books y'all have picked up lately? Pohjolan Leijona by Mirkka Lappalainen. It's about how G2A and Axel Oxenstierna turned Sweden from a poor Feudal backwater to an efficient Early Modern country. drat good read. Kember Boyd, have you read her other books? Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Aug 10, 2015 |
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Aug 10, 2015 15:49
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