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Thanks for the comments, you all gave me plenty to start to work with. If I get to the point where I have something I can show off here I'll post again in the future.
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Aug 7, 2015 21:45
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Thermopyle posted:I commonly see advice that implies the right type of learner can be a job-haver with some short-ish period of teaching yourself. I mean if you're super motivated it's probably still doable, but, well, I was always one of the nerdy overachieving math/computer kids in school and I still found it quite painful to learn how to build computer programs, even though I was in a competent computer science program.
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Aug 7, 2015 21:57
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I don't think it's possible to really learn enough CS and software engineering to be a good developer in a few weeks/months, no matter how motivated. It is more possible to become marginally useful and get hired as a junior dev that could then be properly mentored over a few years while working. The worst developers I've known are not the ones who lacked for degrees or books they've read or years of experience, but just didn't care to learn or improve. I would much rather mentor someone with (almost) zero experience but was genuinely interested in learning than work with a 20+ year developer who no longer cares.
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Aug 7, 2015 22:16
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One of the things I believe that I think is more important than anything else: write code because you want to write code. Don't become a programmer for financial stability unless you're genuinely interested in programming. It's a lot of work and learning outside of billable hours, one has to have a passion, or at the very least, an interest in programming.
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Aug 7, 2015 22:25
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Thermopyle posted:Is it really possible to teach yourself programming and the CS background needed in a short-ish period of time, or is it that it's not uncommon for interviews to skip the algorithms and data structures problems? To be honest, most of CS can be self-taught for someone with sufficient time, particular with course lectures available online. Realistically I don't think four years worth can be compressed into six months, but a year or two is not unreasonable for someone capable.
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Aug 8, 2015 00:29
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Cicero posted:I'm mostly skeptical about this kind of advice, because while it's technically true, I think that "the right type of learner" that can teach themselves real programming that quickly is the kind of computer sperg that would've done that back in middle school, not in their mid 20s after they've already finished college. Sure, the basics of coding syntax are easy, but building large programs with any kind of skill is actually very hard to learn on your own. I dropped out of CS when I was younger because of how awful my professors/teachers were, then a bunch of years ago self-taught myself enough to work in the field. My algorithm stuff is weaker than it should be (although I'm working on it) but I am doing fine otherwise. I did have a ton of server admin work before, though, which helped a lot.
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Aug 8, 2015 01:05
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Ithaqua posted:Okay, we're going to need more information about this, it sounds very entertaining. I shouldn't really give out the details, in order to refrain from a second experience. It benefited everyone involved, so I didn't have much to worry about. (Also, my previous example is not strictly real.) Tunga posted:To be clear, they will find it rude if you tell them at any point that you never intended to accept it. As long as you pretend that you're turning it down because you have a better offer or it's not quite what you want or whatever then they won't think anything of it. You can also practice salary negotiation with them and then decline when they won't go to <insert silly number>. Oh lord no, I have at least that much sense. The silly number idea is good because I could get some more numbers from them to feel out the market, but I wouldn't want to destroy future prospects. I suppose if I offer the high end for what I would get after school, that would probably be a good but also not totally laughable. dougdrums fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Aug 8, 2015 |
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Aug 8, 2015 02:13
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ullerrm posted:Pretty much this. If you're a new grad, yes, they'll be picky about your studies; if you have any decent industry experience (and can talk to a recruiter on the phone about it in reasonable technical depth), then they don't really care. This is especially true the farther away you get from Mountain View. It's been several months since I've heard from the recruiter. But yesterday I got an email from the same recruiter saying "So sorry I let this slip through the cracks."... blah blah blah. Is partaking in FIRST robotics worth mentioning somewhere in my resume? Doing the programming, electronics and pneumatics for my team for two years seams to be the only relevant experience I have at all. I do have a ton of Go related projects of varying complexity and open source contributions on my Github, which is how they found me. I'm currently working as a stagehand with very flexible hours, which is nice. The pay isn't amazing and having to commute all over the place is very annoying.
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Aug 8, 2015 02:20
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Thermopyle posted:I commonly see advice that implies the right type of learner can be a job-haver with some short-ish period of teaching yourself. I was a reasonably motivated job-seeker with a short-ish period of learning at a coding bootcamp. Whether that's "teaching myself" or not is debatable, sure -- I'd argue that it was still self-instruction, just with some amount of imposed structure and timelines. So it worked for me, and I think anyone who's reasonably intelligent and had the same kind of opportunity that I had can learn it. I don't think a short timeline is that unusual: in another field that I'm familiar with, real estate, in many states any idiot with a couple thousand bucks and three weeks to spare can go from "zero knowledge" to "licensed to make money by offering expert advice pertaining to the most complicated financial transaction most people will ever participate in in their lives". Incompetence or ignorance there could cause more damage for the players involved in the transaction than an ignorant person could cause in most junior dev roles. As for interview type questions, at one interview I was shown an asynchronous javascript function that looped things into an array and then asked what the function would return. (An empty array, for reasons that are obvious to me now since I've worked with a lot of Node.js since then, but at the time were mysterious.) At another the test was a few moderately complex word problems of the type anyone who'd ever slept through an algebra class could have solved and a question about what the steps might be to reverse a string without resorting to a canned String.reverse method. AuxPriest posted:One of the things I believe that I think is more important than anything else: write code because you want to write code. Don't become a programmer for financial stability unless you're genuinely interested in programming. It's a lot of work and learning outside of billable hours, one has to have a passion, or at the very least, an interest in programming. An interest is certainly helpful. If opening up an editor or terminal window is just utter misery for you, yes, maybe this isn't the right profession in the same way that being an accountant isn't a good idea if you hate using a calculator and looking at financial documents. I don't think it takes an all-consuming passion to make a decent living at programming, though.
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Aug 8, 2015 03:19
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Dear goons, I got an email that asked "What are your salary expectations?" The correct answer here is never give a number first, right? I've never been in a position to say, "Nah I don't really want the job if that's all you're paying" before. What do?
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Aug 10, 2015 23:59
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Tres Burritos posted:Dear goons, I got an email that asked "What are your salary expectations?" I would like to second this question. For some reference - I've got 2 years experience as a PHP/web developer with angularjs experience and I'm rising pretty rapidly in my company (like getting good assignments, training new hires and all that fun stuff) I live in/near DC also. Making like 62k right now which I think is pretty low, no?
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Aug 11, 2015 00:12
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$100,000. Edit: $200,000.
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Aug 11, 2015 00:30
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Pollyanna posted:$100,000. Edit: $200,000. I'm guessing that comes with angular tax built in
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Aug 11, 2015 00:34
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Why do you think it has so much $$$$$ in it? 
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Aug 11, 2015 00:41
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Tres Burritos posted:Dear goons, I got an email that asked "What are your salary expectations?" A standard dodge would be "I would expect something close to market rate for someone with my skills and experience." One place I interviewed had me in a room with an HR person and his boss in a suit pressuring me for a number, point being there are much higher-pressure situations than email, and if they really want some number in the air to move the conversation along they'll eventually supply it. The number they eventually said was a 47% raise from my old job and I'm really glad I didn't say anything. I've also had luck phrasing things around "comfort" and "ease." "I'm not comfortable giving that information," or later in the process "This decision would be much easier if it was closer to $80k". The phrase "keep me whole" is good if you're moving areas or roles and need the new one to stack up. If they're really hounding you for a number, I've started using the example that "Look, I'm not someone vested at a big corporation like Amazon pulling in $300k+ TComp with RSU's that you have to match, we're just talking about the normal salary and benefits for the area."
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Aug 11, 2015 01:07
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Stop me if this is the wrong thread but I'm looking for some advice. I taught myself to program and I've been working as a full-time dev for two years, doing Web stuff with C#. I'm working as essentially a lead dev, but at a very small shop (I'm one of two full-time programmers; this isn't a tech company). Truth be told, I'm pretty satisfied with my job (I've actually been here longer; I didn't start out in a tech-related job at all) but despite having received generous raises the money is still kind of so-so. I'm making around $68k in a year near Boston. This is offset a bit by the fact my wife has a job with my employer too, but still, kind of low. The thing is that I've tried sending out some resumes and it seems like most of the jobs I'm interested in aren't that interested in me right now and, by the same token, most of the positions that are interested in me don't appeal to me that much. I mostly get responses from people who want me to take low-level junior dev/"features" kind of positions, or consulting sorts of things involving customizing the same software package for various clients -- you get this idea. Some of these seem to pay significantly more (seems like maybe around $90k is attainable) but right now I'm getting to basically design and implement stuff from scratch and the other jobs just seem a lot less interesting in comparison (and I feel like I'm kind of slumming it when a guy apologizes to me for the academic nature of a screening question like "what is a hash table?"). I did have a phone screen with Facebook, which was one opportunity I was genuinely excited about, but I took too long getting to an efficient solution on the problem they gave me and I didn't make the cut. Should I just put in a few more years where I am now and aim for a more mid- or senior-level position then? I hate to leave money on the table but I also don't want to take a job where I'll be bored or not really building my skills that much. I also see the work I'm doing start to bring in revenue and this place has generally been pretty good about raises (I'm at more than double of where I started here) so I guess that's another thing making me think maybe the money thing will get a bit better with time. RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Aug 11, 2015 |
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Aug 11, 2015 03:11
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RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:Stop me if this is the wrong thread but I'm looking for some advice. Do you have a CS degree/background? Two years is not much experience, and especially without the degree, a lot of places are probably thinking you just kinda fell into your role and have a ton of bad habits, or are not a 'real' developer. More time will be helpful if you are aiming for senior level positions. Also, what kind of web stuff are you doing with C#? Are you doing ASP.NET 2.0 type web-forms? MVC 3/4 WebAPI? ASP5? Any Javascript? If not much Javascript experience, you'll not be taken seriously on the front end, and you have to do well on algorithms & architecture for the back end. If web stuff is your goal, I'd pick up some Javascript, it can open up a lot of other opportunities.
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Aug 11, 2015 03:38
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Skandranon posted:Do you have a CS degree/background? Two years is not much experience, and especially without the degree, a lot of places are probably thinking you just kinda fell into your role and have a ton of bad habits, or are not a 'real' developer. More time will be helpful if you are aiming for senior level positions. I've got one project that's primarily MVC with some client-side stuff done with jQuery and another that's a WebAPI project done with Angular (actually I'm pretty proud of this one because I created a tool that generates Angular views, services, and controllers by reflecting over WebAPI controllers which we're using for large portions of the application and it's really cut down on dev time significantly). I'm working with pretty recent stuff (ASP.NET 4.5, EF 6, etc) since these were pretty much greenfield projects. I don't have a CS degree or any formal education related to my job but I did a fairly intensive course of self-study on data structures and algorithms and from what I can tell from visiting some conferences and stuff I'm not really that far behind a lot of my peers, but of course convincing employers of that is a different problem. I'd also say on the software engineering side I got a bit of an accelerated course by having to throw together a production app in a month, then support it and gradually fix all the design mistakes I made in it as I turned it into a multi-tenant application, at the time without any help. People are paying real money to use software I designed and built so I at least have something to point to. Truth be told, I'm doing essentially full-stack stuff now but I find client-side work pretty tedious for the most part so I'm not sure I'd really like to specialize in that. JavaScript has grown on me a lot, but still, UI is not my favorite kind of code to write. Actually in my dream world I'd like to branch out into something a bit more challenging or specialized than line of business apps, but that is probably not realistic for me right now. In any case, I'd like to be more of a "software engineer" than a "C# guy" or "JavaScript guy" or whatever, if you get what I mean. Anyway, I'm reasonably confident in my ability to go from requirements (or a vague statement of the desired outcome, more typically) to a working Web app so I think my main focus, right now, is building up a resume that will convince people that I'm suited for the kind of more senior roles I'm interested in. I totally get the concerns about having bad habits or not being able to really hack it or whatever else and I guess if more time at my current job will help me get my foot in the door then that's what I should do. In a lot of ways the job I have now is kind of the sort of senior-level job I'm looking for, but it doesn't offer that kind of pay and also I do think it's a bit of a big fish in a little pond situation where I'm doing most of the introducing of libraries, tools, and practices to other people in the company and not the other way around. RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Aug 11, 2015 |
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Aug 11, 2015 03:58
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RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:Tons of good stuff Sounds like your only problem is experience (#s on resume). I think you're in a good place then, you just need to keep at it for a bit longer. Keep pushing to keep up to date on the technologies you want to focus on, and you'll be in a great position in another year or two.
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Aug 11, 2015 04:10
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JawnV6 posted:
That's a pretty great way of doing it, I'll have to use that next time. Also I'm going to have to reiterate that it's very nice to have them name the number first, and if absolutely not possible, to then give them a number higher than you were expecting. I got 15k-20k more than I was expecting in the job I just recently got, and 10k over what I was going to give as a high salary just by letting them name the number first.
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Aug 11, 2015 04:22
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Tres Burritos posted:Dear goons, I got an email that asked "What are your salary expectations?" Say "I expect to be paid what I'm worth." If they don't want to give you a number, tell them that it's important to you to know what they think this position is worth to them, to give you a better understanding of what kind of impact they think you might be able to have in this role. The framing of "I want a job where I can make a big difference, and if you want me to make a big difference for you it's only fair to pay me accordingly" is superior to the framing of "I won't tell you what my number is because I think I can get slightly more this way, but don't worry I don't expect a big offer". Or just give them a number that you'd be more than happy with. If you find out later that you could have gotten more and you're upset that your pay isn't totally maximized, there will be other opportunities out there.
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Aug 11, 2015 05:04
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greatZebu posted:Say "I expect to be paid what I'm worth." Companies in the UK do seem to like talking numbers very early in the process, however, which is frustrating. I literally cannot tell you what number I want because I don't know what the job is or what the rest of the package is. It always surprises me how much people get attached to a salary number as the single defining thing that I want from a new job. Of course I want a good salary but I also want to not hate my job and learn things and work with awesome people and have a good benefits package. All of those things fit together so I can't tell you how much you have to pay me until I have all the details.
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Aug 11, 2015 10:22
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JawnV6 posted:A standard dodge would be "I would expect something close to market rate for someone with my skills and experience." One place I interviewed had me in a room with an HR person and his boss in a suit pressuring me for a number, point being there are much higher-pressure situations than email, and if they really want some number in the air to move the conversation along they'll eventually supply it. The number they eventually said was a 47% raise from my old job and I'm really glad I didn't say anything. If they absolutely insist on having my provide them a number first, I just give a giant range with the bottom being what I would be okay with and the top being mildly insane and qualifying it with "depending on the particulars of the position and the benefit package".
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Aug 11, 2015 13:34
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While it's of course good to have ranges in your head, and discuss them with people when chatting about careers and goals and so on, I personally think it's a weak move / bad idea to give a range when asked for salary expectations. Especially if you've spent time getting to know each other and you know they're seriously considering hiring you and they've demonstrated the type of work, environment, and team you would join, as well as summarized what other employee benefits will be offered and so on and you're down to the stage of "let's sort out the details of your potential hiring". If they're stonewalling you for a salary ask before actually beginning the interview process (and you don't want to walk away), then it's fine to say stuff like "I value the total comp. package as a whole and blah blah blah, so it depends on many other factors, but for a salary I'd like to be somewhere between...". If however you two are now reasonably known quantities to each other, and if you're giving a number then it's far better to be decisive about it and just literally give them a number. At the very least, if you can't stop yourself, make it a very narrow band like "mid 80s" or "around 110" or whatever. Getting to that point and saying "Well bob, after all my talks with you and others at your company, I think that for this position I'd be looking for a salary in the range of $80 - 100k" is a meaningless answer and shows you can't synthesize new information given to you, and/or you are painfully indecisive, and/or are not taking them as seriously as they were hoping. To me it's a worse tactic than just continually dodging the question and suggesting they come up with a number first. Which, btw, I get that tactic and am on board with to a degree, but if you came to them it's customary that you come up with the ask, and unless you are legitimately hot poo poo and they can't live without you (you're not and they can)... if you go on long enough not budging and they too are not budging then pretty quickly they'll be fine with passing on you for other candidates who don't play games as much, so just exercise caution on that one. If they approached you, however, I would hold firm on them coming up with those numbers first and never reveal even under torture what you are currently making.
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Aug 11, 2015 20:58
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RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:a WebAPI project done with Angular (actually I'm pretty proud of this one because I created a tool that generates Angular views, services, and controllers by reflecting over WebAPI controllers which we're using for large portions of the application and it's really cut down on dev time significantly). This sounds cool, and even though I've been doing a lot more strictly client side work, I'd love to see this. You should open source this if you're allowed.
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Aug 11, 2015 22:17
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:If they absolutely insist on having my provide them a number first, I just give a giant range with the bottom being what I would be okay with and the top being mildly insane and qualifying it with "depending on the particulars of the position and the benefit package". DO NOT GIVE A RANGE. This is basically the worst response possible. While you may think a range gives you room to negotiate up, all the other person hears is the low number which then serves as an anchor for the entire negotiation. It doesn't matter that you said the range is based on benefits as that's not what they hear and you'll end up fighting the whole way.
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Aug 11, 2015 23:40
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Bhaal posted:if you came to them it's customary that you come up with the ask This is pretty bad advice imo. asur posted:DO NOT GIVE A RANGE. This is basically the worst response possible. While you may think a range gives you room to negotiate up, all the other person hears is the low number which then serves as an anchor for the entire negotiation. It doesn't matter that you said the range is based on benefits as that's not what they hear and you'll end up fighting the whole way. If you must give a range give one where the lower end of the range is significantly higher than what you really want.
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Aug 11, 2015 23:57
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aBagorn posted:You should open source this if you're allowed. This a thousand times this. Not only would I like to try it, but it would be a great example of what you can do.
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Aug 12, 2015 00:08
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return0 posted:This is pretty bad advice imo. I didn't say to roll over right away. Certainly invite them to make an offer without giving them any numbers. But if they insist and you don't budge, and you were the one who approached them, you are going to be the one at a disadvantage for how that resolves: it's your move, not theirs.
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Aug 12, 2015 01:46
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Bhaal posted:he initiator ... has a shortfall in BATNA i thought the point of your batna is that its your batna. whether you initiate or not shouldnt have anything to do with it. if anything, having a good batna means you disregard silly stuff like "the initator goes first because it's polite" and instead do stuff like "whatever you want because you have great alternatives and dont really care if this one goes to hell"
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Aug 12, 2015 02:09
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aBagorn posted:This sounds cool, and even though I've been doing a lot more strictly client side work, I'd love to see this. I'll second this, I'd also be interested in porting it to output Typescript, if possible.
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Aug 12, 2015 02:14
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I need to interview a few candidates with regards to their knowledge of Angular. This is a "problem" because I don't know much about it, but I have used it to some degree of success. A couple of people who converted our app to Angular left leaving me the last man in charge so to speak. Most notably I've used simplistic directives to get what I need to done. If this was straight JS interview, I'd be fine. I know enough to bullshit my way through an interview, I want to be able to see through that when interviewing others so I at least know they studied for the interview. What I'd like to do is show some of our existing code and ask how it could be implemented differently / more efficiently and how they would migrate us to Angular 2 (my company has a problem with staying up to date on libraries - we're still on loving hibernate 3, but hey it's old but works) if needed. If you're in Pittsburgh, let me know we're hiring.
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Aug 12, 2015 02:27
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geeves posted:I need to interview a few candidates with regards to their knowledge of Angular. I think I can help you with this... but I don't fully understand the question. What are you looking for? Interview questions? A rundown on what Angular 2 looks like?
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Aug 12, 2015 02:31
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Safe and Secure! posted:i thought the point of your batna is that its your batna. whether you initiate or not shouldnt have anything to do with it. if anything, having a good batna means you disregard silly stuff like "the initator goes first because it's polite" and instead do stuff like "whatever you want because you have great alternatives and dont really care if this one goes to hell" Point is if you reached out to them and after the first couple attempts fail, trying to wear them down into first giving you a number only demonstrates to them that you want the deal to happen more than they do, so at that point you might as well just give a number or walk, your chances of out-stubborning them on that point have vanished.
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Aug 12, 2015 02:52
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Skandranon posted:I think I can help you with this... but I don't fully understand the question. What are you looking for? Interview questions? A rundown on what Angular 2 looks like? Yes, questions. Interview questions on Angular and maybe more with regards to migrating to Angular 2. I'm mostly looking for competency. I know that's not a better answer. I'm more of a Java developer, but I can hold my own with JS (I work with Java, Jersey and JS everyday - and now more and more Angular). I mentioned Hibernate, because we are on 3.x (5 years+ old) and 5.0 is a release candidate for any day now - I don't want adoption rate to be next to zero - it is currently burning us with regards to other libs. Anyway, with Angular, I mayneed someone to explain the intricacies, more importantly, I'm looking for someone who knows it and can formulate a strategy of how better to use it. One thing (which may be simple) that I don't understand is why If I have something like code:
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Aug 12, 2015 02:53
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geeves posted:Yes, questions. Interview questions on Angular and maybe more with regards to migrating to Angular 2. I'm mostly looking for competency. I know that's not a better answer. I'm more of a Java developer, but I can hold my own with JS (I work with Java, Jersey and JS everyday - and now more and more Angular). I mentioned Hibernate, because we are on 3.x (5 years+ old) and 5.0 is a release candidate for any day now - I don't want adoption rate to be next to zero - it is currently burning us with regards to other libs. How large is your application? Upgrading to Angular 2 may not be a good thing to start someone fresh on, and may not provide much benefit. If you have a large code base now, and it hasn't already been developed with upgrading to Angular 2 in mind, I wouldn't be so eager. There is no rush, the 1.x branch will be maintained & upgraded for at least 2 years after 2.0 releases. They already have plans for 1.5 and 1.6. Angular 2.0 isn't just a library upgrade, it's a whole different framework from the ground up. As for things TO DO to actually perform such an upgrade, here are some suggestions: 1. Stop using things like ng-controller, ng-include, etc. They will be gone. 2. Use isolate scopes on your custom directives, and avoid passing data around via $scope inheritance. 3. Configure your directives to use bindToController and controllerAs, and stop using $scope to store variables, as it will be gone as well. $scope variables are also stupidly confusing and become a mess with anything non-trivial. 4. Consider converting to TypeScript first, as a) Angular 2.0 is written in TypeScript , b) it's structure will let you get even closer to what Angular 2.0 apps will look like, and c) it allows you to use a number of ES6 features and syntax with ES5, features Angular 2.0 will be using. As to your question, it's probably because the ng-controllers aren't binding to the right DOM elements. It's a lot better to define your controllers in your directive definitions, as it becomes a lot easier to reason about how things are instantiating. Skandranon fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Aug 12, 2015 |
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Aug 12, 2015 03:31
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geeves posted:Yes, questions. Interview questions on Angular and maybe more with regards to migrating to Angular 2. I'm mostly looking for competency. I know that's not a better answer. I'm more of a Java developer, but I can hold my own with JS (I work with Java, Jersey and JS everyday - and now more and more Angular). I mentioned Hibernate, because we are on 3.x (5 years+ old) and 5.0 is a release candidate for any day now - I don't want adoption rate to be next to zero - it is currently burning us with regards to other libs. I'm not sure how job-hunting this answer is, but if you want nested controllers/views without a lot of hassle look into ui-router.
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Aug 12, 2015 03:58
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Skandranon posted:I'll second this, I'd also be interested in porting it to output Typescript, if possible. You read my mind. 
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Aug 12, 2015 04:10
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I'm sitting in google lobby waiting for recruiter now. I think i'm gonna regret not coating my entire body in antiperspirant. Here goes first interview of my life.
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Aug 12, 2015 15:06
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Illusive gently caress Man posted:I'm sitting in google lobby waiting for recruiter now. I think i'm gonna regret not coating my entire body in antiperspirant. Here goes first interview of my life. It'll be hard, but don't bug them about going down the slide, they get annoyed when you're all like "I'M GOING DOWN THE SLIDE WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT".
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Aug 12, 2015 15:11
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