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Dead Reckoning posted:Aah, the puppet master defense Why do you think I almost exclusively engage against you? Outside of the obvious trolls you always unequivocally defend the police. Always shifting the blame on the victim or the public, anybody but the officer or the police. By you own statement, all police are poo poo because "whelp culture! what are you going to do about it?". I now know why, because you are balls deep in it and you would probably lose your job if you were judged by standards outside of the US. Oh no! oversight, transparency, accounting, moral fibre, consequences, DR will have none of it. When one of your own speaks out about steps that can be taken to improve policing, not a pep from you, almost like you were shunning him. Some outstanding citizen you are.
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Aug 14, 2015 07:40
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It's kind of funny watching people flop around all over the place and get mad at AR for being anal about wording poo poo properly when that is literally how she makes her living-- using exactly the right terms is of critical importance when it comes to legal poo poo.
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Aug 14, 2015 12:13
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-Troika- posted:It's kind of funny watching people flop around all over the place and get mad at AR for being anal about wording poo poo properly when that is literally how she makes her living-- using exactly the right terms is of critical importance when it comes to legal poo poo. Once again you miss the entire point of this thread.
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Aug 14, 2015 12:49
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Zodiac5000 posted:Don't the Fifth Amendment and Miranda rights deal with incriminating yourself/not having to do/say anything that could potentially land you in hot water? Wouldn't you just want to invoke them if you are ever uncomfortable or unsure of what to do next while you wait for somebody with training and experience in these sorts of things can tell you what to do? Yes. Exactly. You are wise, good sir. KernelSlanders posted:There is just about zero chance you get a yes or no answer to question 2. You now get to either enjoy a consensual conversation with the officer or an arrest for fleeing. I like to call it Schrödinger's detainment. If they don't tell you you are free to go, then shut up. Don't flee. Don't have a conversation. Say "I invoke my fifth and sixth amendment rights" and shut the gently caress up. poo poo's not hard.
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Aug 14, 2015 14:05
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Pohl posted:Once again you miss the entire point of this thread. In your opinion, what is the point of this thread?
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Aug 14, 2015 14:06
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ActusRhesus posted:In your opinion, what is the point of this thread? Discussing how hosed up our police force is? Recognizing and discussing ways to mitigate the needless violence against everyday people perpetrated by cops?
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Aug 14, 2015 14:14
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ActusRhesus posted:In your opinion, what is the point of this thread? Formless ceaseless wailing, like the souls of the damned across the river Styx
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Aug 14, 2015 14:15
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/magazine/the-bail-trap.htmlquote:Even when bail is set comparatively low — at $500 or less, as it is in one-third of nonfelony cases — only 15 percent of defendants are able to come up with the money to avoid jail. quote:In nonfelony cases in which defendants were not detained before their trials, either because no bail was set or because they were able to pay it, only half were eventually convicted. When defendants were locked up until their cases were resolved, the conviction rate jumped to 92 percent. quote:Tomlin’s eye was still swollen shut on Dec. 10, three weeks after his arrest, when he returned to court. At this hearing, prosecutors handed over a report from the police laboratory, which had tested the drinking straw. At the top of the report, in bold, underlined capital letters, were the words ‘‘No Controlled Substance Identified, Notify District Attorney.’’ Judges order excessive bail putting people in jail for weeks months or years prior to a trial, all while the prosecutors delay and offer plea deals. Then the judges ask quote:‘‘Are you pleading guilty freely and voluntarily, because you are in fact guilty?’’ What a joke. Dude with the busted up face has been convicted 43 times. How many of those were legit? quote:Adriana remembers the judge telling her as she stood before him in handcuffs, quietly asking a court officer to push her glasses back up her nose. ‘‘There’s a lot of people in this room that want good things to happen to you. The fear is that you’re not ready for all of these great things.’’ Fact is when you deal with a police officer it can only make your life worse in every way. At best you walk away in the same place you started. At worst they arrest you for possession of a straw (Based on the officer's training and experience), the prosecutor sits on an exonerating report while hoping you plea out after the judge orders you imprisoned for weeks of your life to be beaten until you confess.
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Aug 14, 2015 14:25
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DARPA posted:‘‘There’s a lot of people in this room that want good things to happen to you. The fear is that you’re not ready for all of these great things.’’ Jesus Christ that's ... something else. 
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 14:40
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Radish posted:Jesus Christ that's ... something else. One of the most enlightening moments of my life was when I sat in on drug court. If you have never just gone down and sat in a courtroom while they are in process, you need to.
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Aug 14, 2015 14:45
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I don't know how that person didn't just go mad after hearing that. "Why don't you understand that we are trying to help you by ruining your life?? Why are you so ungrateful?" is something that would be at the end of some '70s dystopian horror movie and then it fades to black as the protagonist breaks down.
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Aug 14, 2015 14:49
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Radish posted:I don't know how that person didn't just go mad after hearing that. "Why don't you understand that we are trying to help you by ruining your life?? Why are you so ungrateful?" is something that would be at the end of some '70s dystopian horror movie and then it fades to black as the protagonist breaks down. Behave that way and you end up in solitary.
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Aug 14, 2015 14:51
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Pohl posted:Discussing how hosed up our police force is? That isn't much of a debate as it seems to presume certain conclusions. Perhaps the thread title should be changed to reflect this. Shukaro has a good suggestion.
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Aug 14, 2015 15:03
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ActusRhesus posted:Perhaps the thread title should be changed to reflect this. Shukaro has a good suggestion. Shukaro posted:Also try to be white.
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Aug 14, 2015 15:21
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ActusRhesus posted:If they don't tell you you are free to go, then shut up. Don't flee. Don't have a conversation. Say "I invoke my fifth and sixth amendment rights" and shut the gently caress up. poo poo's not hard. Cops get pissed at passive aggression too (which is why shutting the gently caress up in response to questions comes off as) and not everyone can afford a day or two in jail just out of the blue for contempt of cop.
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Aug 14, 2015 15:22
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Lyesh posted:Cops get pissed at passive aggression too (which is why shutting the gently caress up in response to questions comes off as) and not everyone can afford a day or two in jail just out of the blue for contempt of cop. So clearly mouthing off, trying to flee, and getting your rear end tased is the more economic choice.
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Aug 14, 2015 15:24
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ActusRhesus posted:So clearly mouthing off, trying to flee, and getting your rear end tased is the more economic choice. Perhaps we could discuss this problem and how we can address that it is an issue? In a collection of statements that one could argue is a "thread" of conversation? I'm all for legal accuracy, but you and DR both argue, at times very concisely and at times very vaguely, a very myopic view that there's no problem with the state of policing, and that when bad things come to light, they must be a one off event and not an example of a system that is extremely easy to abuse.
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Aug 14, 2015 15:38
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ActusRhesus posted:So clearly mouthing off, trying to flee, and getting your rear end tased is the more economic choice. Of course not. My point is that any encounter with police is a calculus between potential prison and receiving de facto punishments that the law doesn't recognize as such. This is leaving aside things like how it doesn't particularly matter if you refuse searches or not in any situation where there is no recording device present under your control. If I (accurately) claim to have refused a search and the cop involved says "no she didn't" how exactly does that dispute get resolved in my favor?
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Aug 14, 2015 15:54
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Raerlynn posted:Perhaps we could discuss this problem and how we can address that it is an issue? In a collection of statements that one could argue is a "thread" of conversation? As another person who does feel that there are substantial problems with the state of policing, I think the content of AR's posts is getting a bit of an unfair rap in this thread because of their tone. Where are you seeing an argument that there's no problem with the state of policing?
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Aug 14, 2015 15:54
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DARPA posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/16/magazine/the-bail-trap.html This poo poo is so hosed, and what is amazing is that compared to where I most recently worked, these bails are very, very low (though OR seems more common in CA). In custody misdemeanors and light felonies equal a plea every day of the week. Literally, I will tell them to fight, they get a no jail offer, and they plea. Even when they are guilty, they get worse deals because the DA knows they will plea. Money bail for petty poo poo is bad. Edit: ar has never argued there is nothing wrong with policing.
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Aug 14, 2015 16:13
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Eletriarnation posted:As another person who does feel that there are substantial problems with the state of policing, I think the content of AR's posts is getting a bit of an unfair rap in this thread because of their tone. Where are you seeing an argument that there's no problem with the state of policing? Anywho your question isn't on point. The question isn't if there is a problem with the state of policing & criminal justice. But why there is such resistance to changing or even talking about it.
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Aug 14, 2015 16:15
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tezcat posted:Hard to call it an unfair rap when it was transphobic posting needlessly interjected into the thread. Point of order, ladyboy jokes between friends is not transphobia. That conviction was vacated on appeal.
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Aug 14, 2015 16:23
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tezcat posted:Hard to call it an unfair rap when it was transphobic posting needlessly interjected into the thread.  For content: While there certainly are big systemic problems in the policing system, really please try to keep in mind that the vaaaaaast majority of cops are just people who are not going to put you in a chokehold because you "looked like you were going for a gun" Also literally nobody is arguing that we shouldn't change it, just that things like "put all police under direct fed control" are not well-thought-out ideas. Syenite fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 16:28
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Shukaro posted:For content: While there certainly are big systemic problems in the policing system, really please try to keep in mind that the vaaaaaast majority of cops are just people who are not going to put you in a chokehold because you "looked like you were going for a gun" How are you supposed to take comfort in that if you are interacting with police? How are you supposed to know that they are one of the good ones? Especially since the most virtuous of cops still tolerate the behavior.
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Aug 14, 2015 16:41
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Shukaro posted:For content: While there certainly are big systemic problems in the policing system, really please try to keep in mind that the vaaaaaast majority of cops are just people who are not going to put you in a chokehold because you "looked like you were going for a gun" Unfortunately, they will let another cop do this to you and cover for him or her. And why wouldn't they? Rat on a fellow cop, get your livelihood ruined.
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Aug 14, 2015 16:46
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nm posted:This poo poo is so hosed, and what is amazing is that compared to where I most recently worked, these bails are very, very low (though OR seems more common in CA). Why is bail a dollar amount anyway? It seems like the fairer way would be to allow judges to set bail at x% of a suspect's assets or income. Shukaro posted:For content: While there certainly are big systemic problems in the policing system, really please try to keep in mind that the vaaaaaast majority of cops are just people who are not going to put you in a chokehold because you "looked like you were going for a gun" A big part of the problem is that the vaaaaaast majority won't stop or report their co-workers for doing that or worse. e: If you look back through this thread even at cases where cops were eventually cited (fired, tried, etc) for abuses, you will find that in almost every instance other cops at the scene did nothing to intervene to stop the abuse and often supported the cop who was directly responsible for the abuse after the fact by corroborating a story, etc. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 16:54
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Why is bail a dollar amount anyway? It seems like the fairer way would be to allow judges to set bail at x% of a suspect's assets or income. because rich people are the only ones who should be able to post bail
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Aug 14, 2015 16:56
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ActusRhesus posted:Point of order, ladyboy jokes between friends is not transphobia. That conviction was vacated on appeal. I love my online friends 
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Aug 14, 2015 17:19
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SedanChair posted:How are you supposed to take comfort in that if you are interacting with police? How are you supposed to know that they are one of the good ones? Especially since the most virtuous of cops still tolerate the behavior. How do you know your car won't explode when you turn the key in the ignition? How do you know your plane won't crash?
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Aug 14, 2015 17:21
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What all this boils down to, in both civil and criminal law, is the presumption that people aren't lying to the court, and it's up to the judge or jury to determine if they might be. Once people lie about sending notice, or consent to anything, etc, the whole system falls apart and there's no real way to fix it without hiring 10 times as many judges and attorneys to make these determinations and imposing penalties.
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Aug 14, 2015 17:22
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Discendo Vox posted:How do you know your car won't explode when you turn the key in the ignition? How do you know your plane won't crash? Cop apologists are similar to people who protested the mandatory inclusion of seatbelts in cars. A good analogy.
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Aug 14, 2015 17:27
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Why is bail a dollar amount anyway? It seems like the fairer way would be to allow judges to set bail at x% of a suspect's assets or income. The average bail hearing lasts less than a minute. Even if they extended that, an accurate look at a defendants assets would take more than a day or two. Remember the most impacted lose jobs if they miss one day of work. Also, it would still hurt the poor more, much like a flat tax hurts the poor more. The poor are less likely to have liquid cash and have less access to credit. If a wealthy person has $100,000 bail, he gets a new mortage on his house. He gets a low interest rate, and when the case is resolves, he pays off the balance. When the poor person gets $1000 bail, they have fewer choices. They can get a title loan or a payday loan with huge interest rates. This loan is also mych shorter term, requiring the principle be paid back quick or take out another loan. There will be pressure to settle to get the balance back. They will then owe a huge amount of interest. The solution is that for minor offenses (all misdemeanors, non-violent light punishment non-violent felonies) with a person without a lengthy and recent history of failures to appear should be cited and released and those who do get arrested should get ORed, perhaps with approprate conditions (though they should be reasonable). These people are wasting space in jail and every day they stay in jail, it makes it harder to get life back on track. Violent crimes are harder, especially as except for the murders and rapes some huge percentage of them are actually kind of petty bullshit. That said those face large prison sentences will FTA, though that can happen with or without money bail. nm fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 17:30
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Discendo Vox posted:How do you know your car won't explode when you turn the key in the ignition? How do you know your plane won't crash? I don't know for sure, but I can be more at ease in those cases due to processes of accountability that are absent in policing.
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Aug 14, 2015 17:33
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Discendo Vox posted:How do you know your car won't explode when you turn the key in the ignition? How do you know your plane won't crash? Because if either of those things happen, there will be a real investigation, people will consider those things to be bad and undeserved by you, and anyone who acted maliciously and is known to have done so will be held accountable.
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Aug 14, 2015 17:35
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Discendo Vox posted:How do you know your car won't explode when you turn the key in the ignition? How do you know your plane won't crash? gently caress, I hate to agree with sedanchair, but if I were a minority, the "well, most cops are good cops" thing isn't really making me more comfortable. Being hosed over by the cops is way more common than car bombs and plane crashes.
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Aug 14, 2015 17:36
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Discendo Vox posted:How do you know your car won't explode when you turn the key in the ignition? How do you know your plane won't crash? How do you know your airbag will deploy of you drive a 2007 Chevrolet HD? Or if your 2008 Toyota Camry's gas pedal won't stick to the floor? Or if those Firestone tires won't catastrophically fail? I mean since we've already shown that these were clearly one off things we don't need systemic oversight and reform right? Maybe, just maybe, part of the problem that hasn't been addressed is that when people have been wronged by the police, and when others like have been wronged in ways that range from inconvenience to outright fatal, it impacts the rest of the public's confidence in their own police forces to not abuse the system in similar ways. Maybe we should discuss how even the most outlying cases of police corruption have wide ranging negative impact beyond just the offending officer or their force or their state or their country?
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Aug 14, 2015 17:37
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I agree that officers lying should be grounds for immediate termination. Once a cop lies he is less than worthless to me as a witness. Get rid of him.
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Aug 14, 2015 17:40
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Discendo Vox posted:How do you know your car won't explode when you turn the key in the ignition? How do you know your plane won't crash? Cars suddenly exploding when you turn the key is not a problem that's so pervasive in America that it's become a major movement for reform. Even then, when a few models of car suddenly explode when you turn the ignition, you know what happens? That model gets recalled to be fixed. The manufacturer doesn't say "Well, can we really be sure the drivers didn't blow themselves up? Maybe if too many die, then we know we have a problem, but it's just a few bad apples. Why are you criticizing the beautiful cars that get you to work so you can see your loving family on time every day?" And judges don't ask someone whose car exploded "Why did you light your gas tank on fire? The manufacturer says you did and we trust them as a witness more than you."
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Aug 14, 2015 17:43
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My point is that an argument from uncertainty produces a paranoid mindset.
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Aug 14, 2015 18:05
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Discendo Vox posted:My point is that an argument from uncertainty produces a paranoid mindset. Uncertainty and uncertainty coupled with complicity and an often deliberate lack of accountability are two different things. Some cops will abuse their authority, just like some cars will malfunction and some planes will crash. That much is a unfortunately just fact of life. The broader problem is that when cops abuse their authority, other cops almost never step in and stop that abuse. Then police are often left to investigate their own abuses, and prosecutors tend to be less likely to pursue them with the same vigor as they do other suspects. If the same was true about, say, plane crashes, people would be deservedly paranoid about air travel. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 18:12
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