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HEY GAL posted:You have immortalized my mistake. He immortalized nothing and now we shall never know of your fuckup. ...which was?
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Aug 16, 2015 09:36
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JcDent posted:Happy Science continues on its track, saying that IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, Japanese occupation of half the Asia turned out to be a good thing, and that the Japanese shouldn't apologize anymore. See also: forumid=46. On a different note, how many of you own books or documents in languages you don't actually speak? Because I certainly do.
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Aug 16, 2015 11:02
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:See also: forumid=46. Bought a signed Tigers in the Mud copy a few months before the guy went to the great Kursk in the sky.
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Aug 16, 2015 11:08
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Hypha posted:Starforts? In my Japan?! Impossibru I have for real never actually seen them over there hahaha
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Aug 16, 2015 11:29
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Frostwerks posted:He immortalized nothing and now we shall never know of your fuckup. i thought it was bourtange
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Aug 16, 2015 11:55
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:See also: forumid=46. turns out large chunks of the Mansfeld Regiment's documents are in italian, because that's the administrative language of the spanish government in milan my grandparents made a point of not teaching my dad italian so he could assimilate faster edit: guess which ethnic group is the only people who write about the valtelline crisis, too
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Aug 16, 2015 11:59
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HEY GAL posted:turns out large chunks of the Mansfeld Regiment's documents are in italian, because that's the administrative language of the spanish government in milan I read (well, skimmed) a WW2 Italian admiral's memoirs in college looking for some specific material on a convoy operation. Turns out he didn't write anything about it in the book, but I did find the English idiom "nothing succeeds like success". Trouble was that this Admiral didn't actually speak much English so it came out like something from English As She Is Spoke. I recall it was something like "nothing of that succeeds in the like of the success" except even more garbled. I've also got a German account from the only survivor of the sinking of the cruiser Weisbaden at Jutland which I transcribed from a German book around the same time. It was originally printed in Fraktur (a typeface which was too Germanic even for the loving Nazis) so God only knows if any of it is actually right. And then there's a bunch of nineteenth century German and French books on naval policy I downloaded from Google Books. My favorite, though, is a fancy letter from the Panjandrum (or the Shah or the Sultan or whatever) of Federated Malaya to the British government that says "Dear Admiralty, Build yourself a dreadnought on us. Hugs and Kisses, the Federated States of Malaya". Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 12:20
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:I've also got a German account from the only survivor of the sinking of the cruiser Weisbaden at Jutland which I transcribed from a German book around the same time. It was originally printed in Fraktur (a typeface which was too Germanic even for the loving Nazis) so God only knows if any of it is actually right. edit: from the original, i can read fraktur and don't trust you not to gently caress up at it HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 12:45
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HEY GAL posted:i thought it was bourtange lmao have a good look @ how few people live in these here parts in 2 weeks (still about as much as in SN per sq km, and way more than in those depopulated wastelands around u)
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Aug 16, 2015 12:48
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Koesj posted:lmao  edit: i grew up in new mexico. germany is crowded
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Aug 16, 2015 12:51
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100 Years Ago It's another day of going from the tragic to the ridiculous. The tragic is going to be General de Lisle's attempts to convince Sir Ian Hamilton that there's no point in any more attacks from Suvla Bay, but the ridiculous is truly A-grade, so we'll focus on that. In short, the War Office has made a great stride forward in protecting its blokes from German chlorine. To that end, they've invented a farting gas mask. I dare you to tell me that you don't want to know more.
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Aug 16, 2015 18:56
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:See also: forumid=46. I've got a handful of occupation-era Soviet occupation force newspapers in Russian and a bunch of photocopies of some Soviet administrative documents from '45-47 that I thought I would get translated if I found anything that looked promising. That material never made it into my dissertation. Skimming for keywords in a foreign language that doesn't use your alphabet is really loving hard.
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Aug 16, 2015 19:19
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And and and and AND! The American air force bombed Milan during the second world war and all the government poo poo from my period after '23 is gone. The Mansfeld Regiment was mustered in in 25. 
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Aug 16, 2015 19:25
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HEY GAL posted:And Welp, so how screwed is your research?
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Aug 16, 2015 19:27
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nothing to seehere posted:Welp, so how screwed is your research? and then there was the time i wrote to the spanish archives in simancas and they said "well, we have 17th century stuff but tbh there's a hell of a lot of Mansfelds in this sad earth and we're not sure which one is yours." they did address me as "most esteemed HEGEL," though, which was nice edit: the archives in simancas is literally a castle, so it's a shame i'm probably not going HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 19:31
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HEY GAL posted:edit: the archives in simancas is literally a castle, so it's a shame i'm probably not going Cripes is right next to Tordesillas as well 
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Aug 16, 2015 19:40
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Start an IndieGogo, get goons to pitch in.
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Aug 16, 2015 20:13
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Cyrano4747 posted:I've got a handful of occupation-era Soviet occupation force newspapers in Russian and a bunch of photocopies of some Soviet administrative documents from '45-47 that I thought I would get translated if I found anything that looked promising. That material never made it into my dissertation. Send me scans, I will translate for one dollar-equivalent of cryptocurrency per page if the documents are interesting. I'll even do one newspaper page for free. HEY GAL posted:
If it was hit before 47, it was hit by the AAC, not the AF. :pedant: Keldoclock fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 20:38
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Keldoclock posted:If it was hit before 47, it was hit by the AAC, not the AF. :pedant: Nope. It was the U.S. Army Air Force during World War 2.
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Aug 16, 2015 20:41
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Nope. It was the U.S. Army Air Force during World War 2. oh god dammit you're right. Bureaucracy!! 
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Aug 16, 2015 21:13
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Keldoclock posted:If it was hit before 47, it was hit by the AAC, not the AF. :pedant: Why would Milan be threatened in the Spanish civil war?
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Aug 16, 2015 21:58
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The Belgian posted:Why would Milan be threatened in the Spanish civil war? Fantastical geography, a unique area of study which actually becomes less nuanced the more you study it. Great advances have been made recently by American scholars. Keldoclock fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 22:03
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The Belgian posted:Why would Milan be threatened in the Spanish civil war? And if it was in Spain, why would it be bombed by the USAF during WWII?
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Aug 16, 2015 22:20
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pictured: spain the netherlands are mislabeled though, this map has all seventeen lowlands provinces together but the seven United Provinces ones became their own thing officially in '48. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 22:24
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HEY GAL posted:pictured: spain Looking at that map, I'm kinda struck by something which isn't strictly military history - what exactly about the Philippines was so attractive to the Spanish that they decided to take the whole thing while leaving most of the rest of Asia to trade ports?
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Aug 16, 2015 22:35
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HEY GAL posted:pictured: spain Pictured in orange & yellow : Flanders  You see, Charles V was Flemish. (Something a bit like this was actually taught to me by a high school history teacher)
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Aug 16, 2015 22:39
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The Belgian posted:Pictured in orange & yellow : Flanders my fav early modern ethnicity is the hispano-flemish though, because it makes so much sense that there would be some but it's still amusing to me that they exist. edit: why_the_ottomans_and_france_are_bros.jpg
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Aug 16, 2015 22:43
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Tomn posted:Looking at that map, I'm kinda struck by something which isn't strictly military history - what exactly about the Philippines was so attractive to the Spanish that they decided to take the whole thing while leaving most of the rest of Asia to trade ports? Basically it was a good spot to have a trading post to handle trade with China and the other South East Asian kingdoms, combined with a fairly weak state that was easily overthrown by the colonists.
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Aug 16, 2015 23:22
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HEY GAL posted:there's goddamn enough of you in the spanish army of this period that you could make that case So is this why the last two lines of the modern Dutch national anthem are "To the King of Spain I'm loyal", or words to that effect?
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Aug 16, 2015 23:33
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Trin Tragula posted:So is this why the last two lines of the modern Dutch national anthem are "To the King of Spain I'm loyal", or words to that effect? i think. the hispano-flemish live to the south of the rebellious dudes, and they are not only loyal, they're super hawkish about the war because they're frightened that if the lowlands go they might go with them. one of the oberst-lieutenants of the regiment i study is one: Theodoro de Camargo, native language French, lives in Brussels
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Aug 16, 2015 23:51
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sullat posted:Basically it was a good spot to have a trading post to handle trade with China and the other South East Asian kingdoms, combined with a fairly weak state that was easily overthrown by the colonists. That and the Philippines were... digestable? Taking control of an entire territory was expensive, difficult, and/or required specific local conditions. The Philippines were not the enormous endeavor, say, India was for the British.
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Aug 17, 2015 00:23
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ArchangeI posted:And if it was in Spain, why would it be bombed by the USAF during WWII? WW2 strategic bombing wasn't very accurate.
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Aug 17, 2015 00:54
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Yeah the Luftwaffe hit Ireland while aiming for London sometimes.
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Aug 17, 2015 01:10
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Taiping Tianguo Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6 Part 7 Part 8 Part 9 Part 10 Part 11 Part 12 Part 13 Part 14 Part 15 Part 16 Part 17 Part 18 Part 19 Divine Intervention Since reaching Nanjing, Hong Xiuquan had found porking eighty wives and writing poetry a more fulfilling lifestyle than attending to affairs of state. Executive power, thanks to the death of Feng Yunshan and Xiao Chaogui, was concentrated entirely in Yang Xiuqing. Wei Changhui and Shi Dakai, the other two original kings, were still significantly lower in rank and could not directly challenge Yang's authority. The promotion of a handful of lesser leaders to wang status, like Qin Rigang, did nothing to affect Yang's monopoly on power, but he nevertheless had the promotions reversed. So Yang is established pretty early on as the defacto ruler of the heavenly kingdom, but he still looks for ways to climb higher still. Fortunately for Yang, he relaizes that he is not actually number two in the Taiping hierarchy. He is number four, Hong is number three, Jesus Christ (silent since the death of Xiao Chaogui) is two, and the supreme ruler is the Heavenly Father. Purely coincidentally, the Heavenly Father chooses to come back to earth and begin speaking again through the voice of Yang Xiuqing. The new visitation in December 1853 is slim on substance, likely intentionally so. The goal is to demonstrate the authority of the Heavenly Father and institute the new chain of command. The almighty God, the supreme sovereign, comes to earth not with advice on salvaging the northern expedition or breaking the siege of Zhenjiang, but to reproach Hong for his negligent parenting and abusive behavior towards some of the palace women. God orders Hong to receive forty blows with a rod to atone. When Hong kneels to receive them, the merciful God relents (alternately, Yang has proven his point and doesn't want to push his luck). Why Hong goes along with this, we can only speculate. He may truly believe Yang, or may have feared either for his own safety or for the movement, should it lose its highest military leader to infighting at this critical time. Yang uses the voice of God to increase his power over criminal proceedings, to meddle with court ritual, and to begin to tamper with Taiping theology. Some of the changes, such as a softening on Confucian literature, may be driven by political pragmatism. Others are purely self serving. Yang will before long be proclaimed the Comforter, the Wind of the Holy Spirit, the blasphemous title that so shocked western visitors. The more heterodox Taiping ideas of a more anthropomorphic God that shock westerners are simultaneously important to maintaining Yang's power. An abstract immaterial god serves his purposes less well than a god with a measurable abdomen and a human voice that can descend to earth and speak through Yang Xiuqing. So his weird interaction with Bowring's mission may be more explicable than it seems at first glance. Not everyone is happy with the new arrangement. Their are still two remaining kings, and Yang is eager to ensure they have no illusions of equality. Shi Dakai is away in the field and generally safely ignored, but Wei Changhui and Qin Rigang (highest ranking official other than the kings) are in Nanjing, and Yang will try to cuck them at every turn. Qin Rigang will be flogged 100 times on Yang's order. On matters both small and large, the voice of the Heavenly Father will invariably side with Yang while publicly dressing down the North king Wei Changhui. Yang's summary executions and punishments of lesser officers no doubt encouraged considerable discontent among lower ranking Taipings. Communist historians will emphasize the class roots of the bourgeois Wei versus the proletarian Yang, but I'm guessing things were likely much more personal than that. The bitter resentment will fester, but must be suppressed while the kingdom is fighting for its life with imperial troops right outside Nanjing. This is why the huge victory and destruction of the southern imperial barracks is a double edged sword for the Taiping movement. With the pressure from the outside removed, the time is finally ripe for the internal power struggle to enter its final stage. Yang's first move in the summer of 1856 is to order the rest of the high officials out of the city. Qin Rigang, with Chen Yucheng and Li Xiucheng, is sent to follow Xiang Rong to Danyang. Wei Changhui is dispatched to Jiangxi, and Shi Dakai to relieve the siege of Wuchang. He is now alone with Hong in Nanjing. The Heavenly Father now makes his most audacious command- the East King is now to be honored with the title of wan sui, ten thousand years. Yang was previously "nine thousand years", ten thousand traditionally reserved only for emperors. Hong accedes to the request, realizing too late that there is no limit to Yang's ambition, and no one in the capital capable of stopping him. All he can do is buy time, promising to honor Yang with his new imperial title on his birthday next month. The clock begins to tick. Die by the Sword If the situation wasn't alarming enough, someone, likely Hu Yihuang, quietly informs Hong that Yang is planning to crown himself supreme ruler at this celebration, and kill Hong if it becomes necessary. Yang had made a point of emphasizing the lines of the bible in which Jesus returns to heaven, but the Holy Spirit is left behind. Hong is finally stirred to action. Secret letters are issued to Qin, Wei, and Shi, instructing them to return to the capital as soon as possible. Qin, fresh from a not particularly successful siege at Danyang, is the first to arrive. He lays low, not wanting to risk action until the others return with mor emen. Wei was fighting Zeng Guohua (Zeng Guofan's brother) in Jiangxi, and is the second to return, with at least 3,000 elite troops. Shi Dakai was in distant Wuchang, and Qin and Wei decide they cannot afford to wait for him. The element of surprise is crucial, so the two generals make their move on September 1, the same day Wei arrived at the city. Yang has at least 6,000 troops loyal to him, but the rest of the city does not seem to have had much sympathy for him. Wei and Qin are able to move through the city by night without opposition, and Yang has no opportunity to rally his loyalists to his palace. Around midnight, the countercoup forces storm Yang's palace, personally led by wei and Qin. Qin is reportedly the first over the wall, and the one who will cut Yang down as the East King trys to flee to a hidden escape route behind a flase wall. This was the operation as originally envisioned by Hong and the other conspirators- a clean, surgical strike to remove Yang and a few of his top officers. But things are never so easy. Wei isn't satisfied. Instead, the soldiers begin killing everyone in Yang's palace. Men, women, and children are put to the sword alike. Anyone who served Yang is considered guilty and executed on the spot. The entire palace is systematically looted. Witnesses report seeing some of Yang's men joining in on the sack, suggesting he had already alienated all but his most die hard supporters. Things had already spiraled out of control, but the killing won't stop there. A few days later, a proclamation is announced, that the North King Wei Changhui and the Zhili King Qin Rigang are to be punished for their excess, and receive 500 blows from a rod in the court yard of the Heavenly King's hall. Yang's remaining followers, numbering five or six thousand, are invited in to witness the punishment. It is all a sham to lure them in and disarm them (no weapons were permitted in the Heavenly King's palace). The prisoners, having witnessed what seems like a thorough punishment (the blows were being pulled) of their persecuters, may have gone to bed in one of the two great houses provided for them thinking they would be set free in the morning. Instead, at daybreak, bags of gunpowder are thrown in from the windows of the houses. Those who are not burnt and dismembered in the blasts try to flee, only to find the doors blocked and barricaded. Some fight valiantly with bricks and rocks, but that is no match for the swords of Wei's men, and Yang's followers are butchered to the last man. Even this bloodbath is not the end. Over the next three months, Wei kills everyone. Yang's family. Yang's friends. People who owed Yang money. Anyone who ever ate Yang's rice or slept in his palace is fair game, and at least 30,000 people are dead in Nanjing by the time it ends. Reign in Blood Shi Dakai shows up six weeks after Yang's death. He enters the city and goes straight to Hong's palace to meet with the remaining leaders. What he finds horrifies him. The plan was to kill Yang, maybe Yang's brothers and a few high officers. Instead, he walks into a charnel house. He confronts Wei, and things quickly get heated. After a few rounds of "gently caress you!"/"No, gently caress you!" Shi says something along the line of "gently caress you guys, I'm out of here." He is not allowed to leave the city by Wei's guards at the gate. Realizing that his life is in danger, Shi has himself lowered over the walls and escapes. That night, Wei and Qin's men come to Shi's palace. Finding that Shi has eluded them, they instead kill his family and followers. Shi probably should have seen this coming, as the indiscriminate slaughter of noncombatants was the basis of their argument in the first place. Shi takes his men to Wuhu and summons others from throughout the Taiping domain. The great mass of Taiping soldiers outside of the capital back Shi in the new power struggle, and his army numbers 60,000 or more. Qin Rigang is outside of the capital, but does battle only with imperial troops and steers clear of Shi. Shi marches toward the capital in early November, and sends a message ahead that if the heads of Wei and Qin are not given to him, he will enter the city and take them. Wei begins to panic. Fearful that the Porcelain Tower may be used as an artillery platform, he demolishes the priceless 500 year old wonder of the world. (A few years back a Chinese businessman donated over $100 million to reconstruct it.) While Shi's first probes at the wall fail to take the city, it is clear that the balance of power is in his favor, and that Hong may soon have to join the vast majority of the kingdom and side with Shi.  Wei cannot dismount the tiger. He begins to assemble his troops and surround the Heavenly palace. He seeks either to take Hong as a hostage, or perhaps even seize the throne for himself. Hong, however, has already assembled his own bodyguard and is ready to pull the trigger and take down Wei. Among his forces are the palace women, many of them old Hakka God Worshippers who pick up the weapons they had put down upon taking the city in 1853. Wei's troops are reluctant to fight directly against God's youngest son, and soon surrender in defeat. Wei is apprehended trying to flee the city. A heavenly proclamation lures Qin back to the city, and shortly thereafter Hong sends Shi the heads he had asked for. Shi returns to the city in bittersweet triumph. True to his principles, he pardons nearly all of Wei and Qin's men. It is time for the killing to stop. Picking up the pieces will not be easy. The events of the past months need to be explained, and the simplest solution is to posthumously celebrate the East King's ascension into heaven. Yang's name has been on every Taiping proclamation of the last five years, and recasting him as a traitor is too problematic to explain. Instead it is Wei Changhui who will be treated to damnatio memoriae. Shi is the only man of high rank left standing, and will take command of the Taiping military and civil affairs. South of Heaven But Hong's faith in his fellow kings has been irreparably shaken. He can no longer trust anyone but family. His elder brothers, Hong Renfa, and Hong Renda, are promoted to wang status. They have neither the education or intelligence for the job, and this move is greatly resented throughout the Taiping administration. Shi greatly dislikes dealing with these knuckleheads while simultaneously trying to hold the kingdom together. Shi does not rule in style. No doubt still ruined with grief, he secludes himself in his house and responds to all petitions only in writing, leaving replies posted on the front wall. Shi succeeds in stabilizing the kingdom, but it cannot last. Shi no doubt knows exactly why he has to share power with the incompetent Hong brothers. The Heavenly King remembers that his subordinate had recently raised an army and pointed it at the capital, delivering what was essentially an ultimatum to the Heavenly King. His resulting paranoia will not interact well with his already questionable sanity. For his own part, Shi perhaps wonders how many of Wei's actions had been explicitly or implicitly sanctioned by the Heavenly King. Shi and Hong are not and never become enemies. They will continue to walk the same road towards a heavenly kingdom of great peace. But they cannot walk it together. Six months after his return to the capital, Shi Dakai departs. he is accompanied by his most loyal followers and his best soldiers. Some reports state he had 200,000 men. This is certainly too high, as imperial reports state this army crossed a nearby river in a single day. Furthermore, Shi's subsequent campaigns surely would have been more successful with that many men. Even at a more sober 30,000, it is still a great loss, especially as they are led by the Taiping's best general. Shi leads his army on a long strange journey to the west, seeking to eventually create a subsidiary Taiping domain in distant Sichuan. He never renounces the Taiping, never declares himself independent, and still proclaims the Taiping religion. But he never returns to Nanjing. Without the logistical base of the Taiping kingdom, the great victories Shi won in the past will elude him in the future. Meanwhile, the Taiping kingdom will struggle in confusion for the next few years, as they lack a leader with the skill and standing to hold the regime together. (Reminder- the 20% of China held by the Taiping is bigger than France or Germany. You can't leave amateurs in charge.) The worst area of neglect will be the Taiping navy, which falls apart and leaves the empire in command of the Yangtze by the end of 1857. Shi and the Taiping will never be as good apart as they were together. But it must be so. Everything you've just read is a generally accepted chain of events, but there is inevitable guesswork and many differing interpretations. Everyone who knew exactly what happened took the secrets to their graves. We can't know for sure that Yang was planning a coup, nor will we ever know to what extent Hong was involved with the countercoup and the following actions as opposed to Wei Changhui acting alone. The only men who knew refused to talk about it afterwards. Our best firsthand source from inside Nanjing at the time actually comes not from any Taiping officials, but from an anonymous Irish mercenary. Next I'll probably get into how the Qing are falling apart for their own reasons and are unable to take advantage of this chaos.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:40
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My mom uncovered a tape of an interview my grandfather did in 1993 for some high school kids' project and I just finished listening to it. Fascinating, because no one in the family had ever thought to ask him about his youth. He mentioned a bit of his war service, which is pretty incredible, as I only remember a couple of stories from him. Alas, the kids were only interested in events our little hometown and didn't ask him any questions. Grandpa, who was born in 1913, apparently considered joining the Navy after he graduated from high school, but when he brought it up to his mother, she started crying and that ended that. His oldest brother had served in World War I - in Siberia! - but died young (though a few years after Grandpa considered the Navy) and he said his brother had health issues stemming from the cold there. The brother was discharged in San Francisco and decided not to come back to our tiny hometown on the other side of the country and just stayed there. I doubt any of the relatives ever saw him again. The bits he mentioned of his own war service: Gramps had married in the late 1930s and by the time Pearl Harbor went down, had an infant son. He was classified for the draft, in his words, as being part of the "bottom of the barrel." I did know that he was called up in 1944. The Army decided that he should work in medical supply, as part of an evacuation hospital. "My job to have the medicine there, to know what it was." As that type of assistant, he was needed often. So often that he decided not to sleep in the soldiers' tents, but with the supplies. Said he made himself a little nest in there. He also perfected a system of hauling the equipment by setting it up in one box, putting a lid on it and as they followed the troops (2-20 miles), he just carried the boxes. Everything would be jumbled up when they arrived at their destination, but basically where he had packed it. Unfortunately, that was the last of the discussion into that phase of his life and the only other bits I know are from a nearly detail-less hospital history that was given out at one of their reunions. They apparently encountered Dachau prisoners just after their release, but the history was much more interested in the recreation they had while stationed in England.
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Aug 17, 2015 04:28
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Xiahou Dun posted:It's probably old hat to most here, but I just found this in ongoing WWI and old songs that the thread loves : Related: ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:On a different note, how many of you own books or documents in languages you don't actually speak? Because I certainly do. Also a weird German RPG about rats, but that I can probably translate with ease.
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Aug 17, 2015 05:14
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The Belgian posted:You see, Charles V was Flemish. (Something a bit like this was actually taught to me by a high school history teacher) A long time ago I read Wheatcroft's history of the Habsburgs. He had it that Charles V was Burgundian.
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Aug 17, 2015 05:53
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Charles V was whatever the gently caress he wanted to be.
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Aug 17, 2015 06:03
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man China has always had the best palace intrigue. Combining weirdo religious cults just makes it even sweeter.
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Aug 17, 2015 06:11
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RIP Vince
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Aug 17, 2015 07:14
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