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Black people get shot at a higher rate than white people, and unarmed black people are shot at over twice the rate as unarmed white people: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis
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Aug 16, 2015 22:42
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SedanChair posted:Unions are bound to represent the wishes of their members, and apparently these union members don't wish for citizens to be able to see a record of their activities. Or if they do, they want to be able to "review" it beforehand so they can They want to view the video so they can tailor their story to fit in the gaps in the video. If you know that no one's camera had a view of the subject's left hand, you can say he was making suspicious movements with it. If the video shows his hands were at his sides motionless, then you have to come up with a less plausible excuse for murdering him. Or, more charitably, because they don't want to look stupid because they incorrectly recall exact details from a stressful situation. But in that case, they shouldn't try to put the details in a report if they aren't sure.
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Aug 16, 2015 22:44
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Rah! posted:Black people get shot at a higher rate than white people, and unarmed black people are shot at over twice the rate as unarmed white people: Now post the other 99 for him to not read.
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Aug 16, 2015 23:04
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bango skank posted:Now post the other 99 for him to not read. SedanChair didn't read what he posted either  So your post should say "now post 99 more but don't bother reading them"
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Aug 16, 2015 23:09
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Toasticle posted:This the second time you've refused to even pretend what he talks abou isn't any good because you just claim he has views that are crazy because he works at a law school that you don't like and YouTube showed you links that triggered you. (Hint: because sovereign citizens like the video which results in YouTube suggesting those awful links. That doesn't mean this guy has anything to do with them.) I watched it the first time I saw it years ago. It's overbroad for the reasons I also previously explained.
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Aug 16, 2015 23:14
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Rah! posted:Black people get shot at a higher rate than white people, and unarmed black people are shot at over twice the rate as unarmed white people: Notice how once side of this "debate" is presenting both statistics that validate their claims and specific incidents that highlight their claims. The other said instead has declared their claims above the need for evidence of any kind.
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Aug 16, 2015 23:39
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"Black suspects are shot more often than white suspects" is a substantially different claim than "<specific black person> would not have been shot if s/he was white." I don't know why people have such a hard time with this. EDIT: The Guardian's data set of "unarmed people killed by police" includes those struck by police vehicles, so I have some questions about the quality of their analysis. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 00:09
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Dead Reckoning posted:"Black suspects are shot more often than white suspects" is a substantially different claim than "<specific black person> would not have been shot if s/he was white." I don't know why people have such a hard time with this. 1. "Black suspects are shot more often than white suspects" 2. "<specific black person> would not have been shot if s/he was white." If you take as true statement 1, then it follows that some person, but for his or her race, would not have been shot. That's like, the whole point of statement 1. You are correct that we can't know whether THIS PARTICULAR case is the 'extra' black death, but in your universe, because we can't identify which death is the 'extra' death, there should be no societal outrage. Edit: Police use their vehicles as weapons, this happens to be an armed example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOp2jjXT9Aw Devor fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 00:14
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SedanChair posted:This is on the level of "prove black voters are discriminated against by voter ID laws." Which you probably regard as unproven as we'll. Far as I can tell voter ID laws didn't do anything to turnouts at all though, and the study I found linked supporting the argument that they did talked only about felon disenfranchisement. Rah! posted:Black people get shot at a higher rate than white people, and unarmed black people are shot at over twice the rate as unarmed white people: This lumps "armed" and "unknown" into the same category so it's worthless, plus their source for armed/unarmed is "local news reports"
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Aug 17, 2015 00:51
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semper wifi posted:This lumps "armed" and "unknown" into the same category so it's worthless, plus their source for armed/unarmed is "local news reports" Actually, it's not useless, and seeing as police don't keep stats on police shootings, the only source they have is news reports.
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Aug 17, 2015 00:58
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Devor posted:1. "Black suspects are shot more often than white suspects" 1) Truck drivers are 40% more likely to smoke cigarettes than non-truck drivers It's well understood that we can't assume that 2) Bob wouldn't smoke cigarettes if he wasn't a truck driver However, we also can't assume that 3) Becoming a truck driver causes people to smoke cigarettes It's possible that cigarette smokers are more likely to become truck drivers, or that people born on a Wednesday are very likely to be smokers and very likely to be truckers, skewing the data. The idea that the number proves that somewhere out there is an "extra black death" is a misunderstanding of statistics and correlation vs causation. Devor posted:Edit: Police use their vehicles as weapons, this happens to be an armed example The database also lumps deaths that were ruled by medical examiners to be due to drug use or pre-existing heart conditions in with gunshot wounds because the suspect was fighting with police or in custody at the time, and since it only includes deaths, if the police shoot you and you survive, it doesn't count. It's not useful. Rah! posted:Actually, it's not useless, and seeing as police don't keep stats on police shootings, the only source they have is news reports. ---------------- Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 01:09
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion: The Problem Attic > Let's Debate the Police and the Literal Interpretations of Hyperbole
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Aug 17, 2015 01:21
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Dead Reckoning posted:That's not how it works though, because the statistic doesn't demonstrate causality, and it's (if we're talking about the Guardian's number) based on per capita. For example, if we find that If you're proposing that causation goes the other way: that instead of police thinking people with black skin are more dangerous, simply having black skin makes a person more dangerous then I think you need to do a little more work to substantiate 1890s scientific racial theory. Now I know you're going to say "oh but there could be a third factor, poverty could be the reason" but we actually have a good seventy years of evidence that just black faces alone influence people's perception and behavior because of an ingrained (probably automatic and subconscious) association in everyone's minds between black faces and violent crime. You might give this a read if you haven't seen it before.
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Aug 17, 2015 01:59
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SedanChair posted:This is on the level of "prove black voters are discriminated against by voter ID laws." Which you probably regard as unproven as we'll. It's more like saying "just because we know there's a correlation between donating millions of dollars to politicians and getting favorable legislation passed, we shouldn't actually do anything about it because you can never prove in any specific case that giving legislators a few million is what made the difference and got this specific bill passed this one time". It's really quite amazing: you have a clear trend which shows a problem but as long as you myopically focus on each individual incident without looking at the broader picture there's now zero concrete examples of a known trend, and therefore zero reason for reform!
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Aug 17, 2015 02:26
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Devor posted:They want to view the video so they can tailor their story to fit in the gaps in the video. If you know that no one's camera had a view of the subject's left hand, you can say he was making suspicious movements with it. If the video shows his hands were at his sides motionless, then you have to come up with a less plausible excuse for murdering him. Or it could be that being constantly recorded will necessitate a complete change in how police carry themselves, even when not dealing with members of the public. Pretty much everyone in every profession moans, talks poo poo about their boss, or generally acts in an unprofessional manner when they think no-one's watching. Even if a cop is entirely on the level when dealing with the public, they'll probably talk completely differently when they're in the car with their partner. It's perfectly legitimate for the union to say that allowing time for training and adjustment for dealing with the fact that their boss can watch them every drat second they're on duty or that their random mid shift smack talk could become a matter of court record far more easily than before. I know cop unions can be bad, but from what I can see in the article everything they're saying is valid.
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Aug 17, 2015 02:32
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Trabisnikof posted:The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion: The Problem Attic > Let's Debate the Police and the Literal Interpretations of Hyperbole The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion: The Problem Attic > Let's Debate the Police and I swear guys those posts weren't serious I was j/k! VitalSigns posted:Now I know you're going to say "oh but there could be a third factor, poverty could be the reason" but we actually have a good seventy years of evidence that just black faces alone influence people's perception and behavior because of an ingrained (probably automatic and subconscious) association in everyone's minds between black faces and violent crime. You might give this a read if you haven't seen it before. People associate black faces with violent crime because blacks commit something close to 50% of all homicides and are also heavily over-represented in other violent crimes. It's an unavoidable connection when the numbers look like that.
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Aug 17, 2015 02:32
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Thankfully a racial realist showed up to explain why he is scared of black men.
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Aug 17, 2015 02:37
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semper wifi posted:The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion: The Problem Attic > Let's Debate the Police and I swear guys those posts weren't serious I was j/k! If that is your argument regarding white people you're going to have to explain why 2500 white people are murdered by white people and 409 by black people? Sounds like I should be terrified of white people. https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...fender_2013.xls
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Aug 17, 2015 02:37
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Discendo Vox posted:I watched it the first time I saw it years ago. It's overbroad for the reasons I also previously explained. Your single comment was talk to the police just don't over share. His and the cops points were you may think what you're saying isn't going to gently caress you later but you are taking a massive risk so do not talk without a lawyer and the cop agrees with him. The rest of your commentary is whining about the YouTube suggestions. This thread already had multiple slap fights over laymen not knowing the law and every lawyer I've known and worked for to a person will say "If you're under arrest do what they say and keep your loving mouth shut till your lawyer is there." Because guess what, people who don't know the law or has never been arrested can easily gently caress up. "Don't over share" is the shittiest legal advice I've ever heard.
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Aug 17, 2015 02:39
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nm posted:If that is your argument regarding white people you're going to have to explain why 2500 white people are murdered by white people and 409 by black people? Where did he state it was only white people getting murdered in the point he was making?
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Aug 17, 2015 02:40
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Murderion posted:Or it could be that being constantly recorded will necessitate a complete change in how police carry themselves, even when not dealing with members of the public. Pretty much everyone in every profession moans, talks poo poo about their boss, or generally acts in an unprofessional manner when they think no-one's watching. Even if a cop is entirely on the level when dealing with the public, they'll probably talk completely differently when they're in the car with their partner. It's perfectly legitimate for the union to say that allowing time for training and adjustment for dealing with the fact that their boss can watch them every drat second they're on duty or that their random mid shift smack talk could become a matter of court record far more easily than before. The problem you talk about here is indeed an issue, but it is completely divorced from the issue of giving officers the right to view their videos prior to writing police reports or making statements. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/08/13/should-cops-get-to-review-the-video-before-they-report
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Aug 17, 2015 02:43
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Is it desirable to craft a solution that doesn't interfere with non-racist cops' ability to perform their duties?
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Aug 17, 2015 02:49
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semper wifi posted:
I don't know what to say, honestly. I just want to quote this for posterity. Pohl fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 02:52
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semper wifi posted:People associate black faces with violent crime because blacks commit something close to 50% of all homicides and are also heavily over-represented in other violent crimes. It's an unavoidable connection when the numbers look like that. Whatever the underlying reasons, yes those subconscious and automatic responses are present in everyone along with all of the other prejudices and biases that we as fallible humans with monkey brains possess, but the whole point of having professional institutions is to provide a mechanism and standard of training to counteract those as much as possible. It's also unavoidable human nature to get the urge to yank the nose of a plane up when you realize you're descending too fast, which is exactly why we create standards of training and professionalism to reduce as much as possible the incidence of pilots panicking and stalling the airplane. We don't go "welp, humans gonna human, nothing we can do about that". Unless you are arguing that police should in fact racially profile people, and because of black violent crime rates the police should shoot a 12-year-old black boy on sight, and only if he's white is it safe enough to talk to him and find out he's holding a toy gun? I'm going to assume that's not what you were implying, please let me know if I'm incorrect in that assumption. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 02:57
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I love that I can walk into this thread v2 after ceasing to read the previous one because of pedantic shitters that'd make Fishmech blush, only to find those same pedantic shitters are still being both pedantic and lovely.semper wifi posted:The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion: The Problem Attic > Let's Debate the Police and I swear guys those posts weren't serious I was j/k! You stupid gently caress.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:15
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Kitfox88 posted:I love that I can walk into this thread v2 after ceasing to read the previous one because of pedantic shitters that'd make Fishmech blush, only to find those same pedantic shitters are still being both pedantic and lovely. Race of offender: Black people total 2,698. White people total 2,755. The post you quoted said: quote:blacks commit something close to 50% of all homicides So he was correct, not a stupid gently caress. You only showed homicide statistics, not all violent crime statistics, which was also brought up. So you proved him right on one of his points and ignored the other. Way to go.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:19
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VitalSigns posted:Unless you are arguing that police should in fact racially profile people, and because of black violent crime rates the police should shoot a 12-year-old black boy on sight, and only if he's white is it safe enough to talk to him and find out he's holding a toy gun? I'm going to assume that's not what you were implying, please let me know if I'm incorrect in that assumption. I'm saying that I think fighting against implicit biases is a waste of time, it's like that Harvard test I'm sure everyone in this thread has taken. That subconscious association is going to happen no matter how mindful you are of it. Maybe making police recruits aware of it would help but I don't think it's the sort of thing that can be trained out of someone, particularly because none of the shootings, even the ones where the guy was unarmed, take place in a calm, relaxed place where everyone can slow down and think. Like I've said for the entire thread, trying to reduce poverty in black/hispanic communities and reeling the police in, in general, makes much more sense than trying to narrowly address racism within police departments. Kitfox88 posted:I love that I can walk into this thread v2 after ceasing to read the previous one because of pedantic shitters that'd make Fishmech blush, only to find those same pedantic shitters are still being both pedantic and lovely. Did you even look at this link?
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Aug 17, 2015 03:25
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Kitfox88 posted:I love that I can walk into this thread v2 after ceasing to read the previous one because of pedantic shitters that'd make Fishmech blush, only to find those same pedantic shitters are still being both pedantic and lovely. Also, this link shows that 50% of homicides are committed by 16% of the population. That's pretty unbalanced. semper wifi posted:Did you even look at this link? SedanChair showed several pages ago that some people don't actually read what they are using to back up their claims. They just throw it at a wall and hope it sticks. Cole fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 03:27
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Feel free to start a separate thread to discuss why you should never relax around blacks, that's pretty loving racist.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:30
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Kitfox88 posted:I love that I can walk into this thread v2 after ceasing to read the previous one because of pedantic shitters that'd make Fishmech blush, only to find those same pedantic shitters are still being both pedantic and lovely. These threads are never going to not exist, and we are going to have the same lovely people saying lovely things in them. Calm down a bit, however. Seriously for your health, calm down a bit and take some deep breaths or something.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:31
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Devor posted:Feel free to start a separate thread to discuss why you should never relax around blacks, that's pretty loving racist. Do you think it is okay that 12-16% (depending on which claim you go by) of the population are responsible for 50% of the homicides in the country? Because the police brutality posted in this thread is a very, very small percentage of the overall police in the United States, and that is enough to give credence to being cautious around police officers.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:32
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Cole posted:
You are really just an rear end in a top hat, aren't you? You asked him for 100 links and he loving did it. Just loving lol Cole.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:32
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Pohl posted:You are really just an rear end in a top hat, aren't you? You asked him for 100 links and he loving did it. He posted links that had nothing to do with what was asked and then touted them as if they were proof to back up his claim. If calling him out on it makes me an rear end in a top hat, then that is ok with me.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:33
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gently caress dudes. We do not post about TheRealRacism, nor do we post about black on black crime or any of that. We post about Police and Criminal Justice related issues. In this thread we don't give a poo poo about any crime, murder, homicide, or event that doesn't involve a law enforcer in it. So shush.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:39
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Cole posted:He posted links that had nothing to do with what was asked and then touted them as if they were proof to back up his claim. If calling him out on it makes me an rear end in a top hat, then that is ok with me. 100 links was a stupid requirement to begin with. You knew that when you posted the number. I think he did at least read or skim most of those links, nobody else did. He posted 100 loving links and you just dismiss it as him being lazy. Well, gently caress you. You know you are a disingenuous bastard. It's been like ten years and I still can't figure out what your objective is.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:41
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Unfortunately there's nothing there for all violent crimes w/r/t race, but of all the known murders in 2013, there were 5375 offenders of black race. That's .01% of all black people in America. The white murderers on that list were .002% of the white population. The point is that even with that many black people committing murder it's still incredibly goddamn stupid to use it as any remote excuse to profile them or say that they're more violent or anything even remotely akin to this masterpiece of a post. semper wifi posted:People associate black faces with violent crime because blacks commit something close to 50% of all homicides edit: sorry vaha, stopping now
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Aug 17, 2015 03:43
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Vahakyla posted:gently caress dudes. I think you'll find that it is of the utmost importance that we do not post about Police and Ciminal Justice related issues and instead post about, as you put it, TheRealRacism and black on black crime!!
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Aug 17, 2015 03:44
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Pohl posted:100 links was a stupid requirement to begin with. You knew that when you posted the number. He actually offered to give me 100 links. And four out of five of the first five didn't substantiate what his point was. We wouldn't be having this conversation if he had just read the things he was posting, or if he had originally just said 20 links instead of 100. It's not a horrible thing to hold someone accountable for doing shoddy research.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:45
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Kitfox88 posted:Unfortunately there's nothing there for all violent crimes w/r/t race, but of all the known murders in 2013, there were 5375 offenders of black race. That's .01% of all black people in America. The white murderers on that list were .002% of the white population. But that small amount is enough to excuse profiling police officers.
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Aug 17, 2015 03:45
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Cole posted:Do you think it is okay that 12-16% (depending on which claim you go by) of the population are responsible for 50% of the homicides in the country? Because the police brutality posted in this thread is a very, very small percentage of the overall police in the United States, and that is enough to give credence to being cautious around police officers. gently caress off to Stormfront
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Aug 17, 2015 03:46
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