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Festival in question has had at least one Israeli band play it before (Hatikva 6, it was a good show). Kind of a shame about the festival, really. I think artists should perform regardless of politics. It's a fantastic way of getting your point across mental boundaries as well as physical borders.
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Aug 16, 2015 21:12
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Miftan posted:Festival in question has had at least one Israeli band play it before (Hatikva 6, it was a good show). Kind of a shame about the festival, really. Contrariwise, the point of a boycott like this is to treat the nation as an international pariah, which requires people agreeing to shut it out intellectually as well. You could argue that this is only going to radicalize things further, but that assumes that all that's necessary to bring peace is for enough people to buy Israeli products with an ethical attitude.
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Aug 16, 2015 21:14
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Effectronica posted:Contrariwise, the point of a boycott like this is to treat the nation as an international pariah, which requires people agreeing to shut it out intellectually as well. You could argue that this is only going to radicalize things further, but that assumes that all that's necessary to bring peace is for enough people to buy Israeli products with an ethical attitude. What does this have to do with having a private citizen, a Jewish American, no less, sign a loyalty oath?
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Aug 16, 2015 21:17
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I admittedly know next to nothing about Matishayu beyond a quick google search, which brought up this article five years ago in response to backlash over the gaza flotilla raid:quote:"Oh boy," he says, fiddling with his grey beard and peyot. "I am blown away by the one-sided media coverage. Whether or not the ships should have been bringing aid to Gaza, those territorial waters belong to Israel - it's internationally agreed. They were warned repeatedly not to go there. But when the Israeli soldiers came onto the ships they were lynched; they were shot, stabbed, and beaten with poles. They were meant to be peace activists and they've got Molotov cocktails! Did you see the footage? It's not Israelis beating up peace activists - they're slamming the soldiers one at a time with metal poles!" (worth noting that the only weapons found to justify the raid were the likes of safety equipment, cooking knives, wrenches and similar construction equipment, etc.) If the festival blackballed Matishayu because he's jewish then that's wrong, if they did it because he's made statements similar to this recently then I can see them handing out an oath demand, not because he will actually do it, but as a statement of their support for the Palestinian cause.
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Aug 16, 2015 21:23
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I understand where you're coming from, but it's really problematic if we demand these kind of loyalty oaths from Jews of every stripe and nationality, but not the many millions of non-Jews who have similar opinions on Israel. It's never great when there are opinions you aren't allowed to have just because of your ethnicity or religion.
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Aug 16, 2015 21:25
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Neurolimal posted:I admittedly know next to nothing about Matishayu beyond a quick google search, which brought up this article five years ago in response to backlash over the gaza flotilla raid: Unless the article was missing this, they didn't demand that pledge from every single artist performing. That's what makes it so iffy in my opinion..
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Aug 16, 2015 21:30
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:I understand where you're coming from, but it's really problematic if we demand these kind of loyalty oaths from Jews of every stripe and nationality, but not the many millions of non-Jews who have similar opinions on Israel. It's never great when there are opinions you aren't allowed to have just because of your ethnicity or religion. Yeah. Like I said, if this was just a symbolic move to say "No, you can't come because you say awful things regarding Palestine/Israel" to someone, then I can understand the festival's position. If this was done to say "No, Jews can't come if they say awful things regarding Palestine/Israel" then that is an immensely problematic stance and only empowers the notion that all Jews have a stake in or are responsible for Israel's actions.
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Aug 16, 2015 21:32
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Neurolimal posted:Yeah. Like I said, if this was just a symbolic move to say "No, you can't come because you say awful things regarding Palestine/Israel" to someone, then I can understand the festival's position. If this was done to say "No, Jews can't come if they say awful things regarding Palestine/Israel" then that is an immensely problematic stance and only empowers the notion that all Jews have a stake in or are responsible for Israel's actions. Exactly. They should ask the same of all the other artists. I'm sure some of them wouldn't be too happy to sign that poo poo for the simple reason that they'd be alienating some audiences, which would gently caress with the festival. Which is why we'll just ask the Jew.
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Aug 16, 2015 21:35
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Miftan posted:Unless the article was missing this, they didn't demand that pledge from every single artist performing. That's what makes it so iffy in my opinion.. Absurd Alhazred posted:What does this have to do with having a private citizen, a Jewish American, no less, sign a loyalty oath? These are the issues that make it not acceptable to me. If BDS' goal is to make Israel an 'international pariah' why would they give a poo poo what an American thinks, and more importantly why does it sound like he was the ONLY one demanded to sign this statement? This was not a pro-Palestine or even a general anti-imperialist rally, they singled out a Jewish man because of complaints that honestly sound like they are based in 'he's a Jew who hasn't properly checked the boxes we like get rid of him' and tried to make him sign some creepy rear end pledge of support. Like I said I am pro-independent Palestine and if that happened to me I'd probably tell them to gently caress off to just because who the gently caress are they to tell me what views I have to literally sign on to if I want to play music at their non-political festival?
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Aug 16, 2015 21:36
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What does this have to do with having a private citizen, a Jewish American, no less, sign a loyalty oath? I was responding to the specific post that I quoted, not to anything else in this thread. Loyalty oaths are bad on their own and doubly bad in this context.
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Aug 16, 2015 21:37
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If it was anything racially based, that's wrong. On the other hand he's a guy performing at a festival which says it specifically promotes "peace, equality, human rights and social justice" and he's made lovely statements about the Israel/Palestine situation in the past (Anti peace flotilla, supporting Israel during Cast Lead) in which case it's fair enough to try and get them to cancel his attendance. I think people will just go with whatever position they're already biased towards but there doesn't seem to be enough there to condemn them. Edit: Also was this at the behest of BDS at all? I can't find anything which actually explains how they were actually responsible for this. I've found a few mentions of enormous pressure by BDS but nothing which explains what this pressure was and nothing to back up it occurring. The only specific claim I've found (which still isn't verified or explained) is that other artists threatened to pull out. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 23:22
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My Imaginary GF posted:It's also antisemitism, just another example of BDS' true agends. To economically deprive a Jew gainful employ solely because of their religious beliefs is anti-semitism. I hope that festival is cancelled and the organizers brought up in European court for their human rights violations. People have a right to be anti-Semites, just as others have a right to call them on it and boycott them in turn. It's a stupid over reach that materially hurts their cause. I mean BDS is pretty clearly and overtly anti-Semitic, so this is just their true colors shining through. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 23:46
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Kim Jong Il posted:People have a right to be anti-Semites, just as others have a right to call them on it and boycott them in turn. Antisemitism is not a human right. BDS, and its supporters, are antisemites who should be blacklisted from employment at reputable institutions.
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Aug 17, 2015 00:25
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I've dug it up. BDS boycotted him because (according to google Translate): "he has participated in "pro-Zionist" festivals, he acknowledged to be a lover of Israel and has even said that "Palestine does not exist ."
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Aug 17, 2015 00:45
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team overhead smash posted:I've dug it up. BDS boycotted him because (according to google Translate): "he has participated in "pro-Zionist" festivals, he acknowledged to be a lover of Israel and has even said that "Palestine does not exist ." All percectly reasonable for someone of the jewish faith. There is no excuse for denying someone gainful employment because they are an adherent of Judaism in both religion and culture.
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Aug 17, 2015 01:12
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Effectronica posted:Contrariwise, the point of a boycott like this is to treat the nation as an international pariah, which requires people agreeing to shut it out intellectually as well. You could argue that this is only going to radicalize things further, but that assumes that all that's necessary to bring peace is for enough people to buy Israeli products with an ethical attitude. It'd be one thing if they required it from every performer, but it sounds like he was singled out
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Aug 17, 2015 01:14
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team overhead smash posted:I've dug it up. BDS boycotted him because (according to google Translate): "he has participated in "pro-Zionist" festivals, he acknowledged to be a lover of Israel and has even said that "Palestine does not exist ." "Acknowledged to be lover of Israel" is some straight up neo nazi poo poo.
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Aug 17, 2015 01:30
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:It'd be one thing if they required it from every performer, but it sounds like he was singled out Yeah, that's bad. His treatment is pretty much unjustifiable.
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Aug 17, 2015 01:36
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http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-israel-deal-imminent-to-the-dismay-of-palestinian-factions/ Is this gonna be a thing?
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Aug 17, 2015 01:43
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Effectronica posted:Contrariwise, the point of a boycott like this is to treat the nation as an international pariah, which requires people agreeing to shut it out intellectually as well. Contrari-contrariwise, the point of demanding a non-Israeli Jewish-American prove that he's "one of the good ones" by denouncing Israel is to turn Jews into pariahs.
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Aug 17, 2015 02:19
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The Insect Court posted:Contrari-contrariwise, the point of demanding a non-Israeli Jewish-American prove that he's "one of the good ones" by denouncing Israel is to turn Jews into pariahs. That's irrelevant to what I said and your crusade to render the world into unthinking supporters of Israel and the teeming mass of antisemites that will suffer some dire fate is grotesque in the extreme.
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Aug 17, 2015 02:27
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Effectronica posted:That's irrelevant to what I said and your crusade to render the world into unthinking supporters of Israel and the teeming mass of antisemites that will suffer some dire fate is grotesque in the extreme. It's not 'the world' you said the point of BDS is to make Israel into an international pariah and people are saying 'right but this guy isn't Israeli at all'. No one is calling 'the world' antisemitic, some of us are saying that this one specific thing was pretty loving antisemitic and even if you do feel BDS' goal is Israel based this in no way goes to that goal. e: oh that was an Insect Court post, nevermind
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Aug 17, 2015 02:33
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Tatum Girlparts posted:It's not 'the world' you said the point of BDS is to make Israel into an international pariah and people are saying 'right but this guy isn't Israeli at all'. No one is calling 'the world' antisemitic, some of us are saying that this one specific thing was pretty loving antisemitic and even if you do feel BDS' goal is Israel based this in no way goes to that goal. You misunderstood my post, because I was responding initially to someone who said that musicians shouldn't be pressured to boycott. The fact that Matisyahu was treated antisemitically isn't really relevant to why musicians should be part of the boycott. Furthermore, I was responding to The Insect Court, in the post that you just quoted, and you really should not consider him part of your "us". e: whoops missed your edit
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Aug 17, 2015 02:37
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Yep my bad there, that's what I get for reading while mainly watching something, feel free to tell Insect Court to shut up with his crazy rhetoric all you want.
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Aug 17, 2015 02:40
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So I got a report from the International Middle East Media Center that some youths beat a Palestinian to near death in a settlement who was a contractor, is there any other news sources to corroborate this?
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Aug 17, 2015 03:14
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Tatum Girlparts posted:So this is getting some traction already (by which I mean it's been emailed/linked to me by like three different people, very scientific standard) It looks like he's been fairly outspoken about being pro-Israel - and anti-Palestine - in news interviews and social media, and other artists were threatening to back out of the festival ("Artists scheduled to perform at the event threatened to cancel their appearances if Matisyahu were to perform") because they were offended by the political views he has repeatedly and openly expressed? It's not like they just randomly singled him out because he was Jewish - he's made his position on Palestine clear, and he's paying the price now for his political statements, not his ethnicity. It looks like the event tried to smooth it over by asking him to make a statement that would appease the other artists, but he refused, so they had to dump him to avoid losing a bunch of others. If he had made a bunch of derogatory comments about black people, would we be complaining about him being unfairly singled out? Elotana posted:http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-israel-deal-imminent-to-the-dismay-of-palestinian-factions/ I'll believe it when I see it. Israel and Hamas have both denied any negotiations, and the article is sourced from a Turkish minister and a Palestinian communist official, neither of whom I would really expect to be in the know here. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 04:38
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Main Paineframe posted:If he had made a bunch of derogatory comments about black people, would we be complaining about him being unfairly singled out? Afrikaner singer known for using rahowa rhetorics is asked to sign a statement that Black people are entitled to the same human rights as Whites, refuses to do so, and therefore is barred from participating in one event; thread complains about racism against white people and say it is unacceptable to single this guy out and ask him to do what is tantamount to swearing an oath of loyalty to a fringe organization. Also I am endlessly amused that "Palestine has a right to exist" is the unacceptable shibboleth which is called swearing an oath of loyalty. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 05:10
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Main Paineframe posted:It looks like he's been fairly outspoken about being pro-Israel - and anti-Palestine - in news interviews and social media, and other artists were threatening to back out of the festival ("Artists scheduled to perform at the event threatened to cancel their appearances if Matisyahu were to perform") because they were offended by the political views he has repeatedly and openly expressed? It's not like they just randomly singled him out because he was Jewish - he's made his position on Palestine clear, and he's paying the price now for his political statements, not his ethnicity. It looks like the event tried to smooth it over by asking him to make a statement that would appease the other artists, but he refused, so they had to dump him to avoid losing a bunch of others. If he had made a bunch of derogatory comments about black people, would we be complaining about him being unfairly singled out? Well according to BDS his sins were: Headlining a pro-Zionist concert which, googling turns up a lovely student run free food type concert that had as much impact as a dry fart. This horrific statement:  And when asked about the Palestine conflict he said: quote:Well, as far as I understand, there was never a country called Palestine. There was the British occupation, but there was never a government. Palestine was a creation that was created within Israel, as Israel had already come about. That’s my understanding, but again, I’m not going to claim that I have the answer or the truth or the right knowledge. I’m a singer. I’m a musician, trying to find his own sense of balance in his own life, trying to write songs that inspire people. I love people and I love human beings, and I think if people could focus on that, it’d be great. But I have no answers as to who’s right and who’s wrong, and how we should deal with such huge issues that go back so far. All I know is that I have devout Muslim followers that love my music. To me, that’s what it’s about with modern people now, getting past who killed who, and knowing that God created this world in mercy. And if we could emulate that quality of mercy, we would be godly people. Which while not pro-Palestine, is also mainly focusing on saying 'yea I'm a loving musician and I don't know poo poo soooo'. And, again, BDS is meant to be fighting Israel's oppression, do you legitimately believe someone who's most damning moment was headlining a meaningless and lovely concert with a lovely message who is not Israeli really should be high on their list? And the 'compromise' was hosed up, the festival was not political, he shouldn't have an obligation to prove he's a Good Jew to play it.
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Aug 17, 2015 05:44
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Reading a little bit further into that BDS statement, they also cited his defense of the Israeli attack on the Freedom Flotilla that killed 10 people, and BDS didn't ask for a written/taped statement, all BDS asked for was a tweet/statement "stating he was in favor of compliance with international law and human rights in Palestine." I guess the festival decided to take it further? Not sure on that point
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Aug 17, 2015 05:47
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Reading a little bit further into that BDS statement, they also cited his defense of the Israeli attack on the Freedom Flotilla that killed 10 people, and BDS didn't ask for a written/taped statement, all BDS asked for was a tweet/statement "stating he was in favor of compliance with international law and human rights in Palestine." I guess the festival decided to take it further? Not sure on that point I think the key problem is, as a few other people have mentioned, the fact that he was (apparently) the only one asked to give this statement. Given the fact that he's not even Israeli himself, I can't help but think that there's some antisemitism involved. Also, remember that antisemitism is actually a pretty big thing in many parts of Europe, likely including Spain.
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Aug 17, 2015 07:28
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Yes, super including Spain.
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Aug 17, 2015 07:34
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Which while not pro-Palestine, is also mainly focusing on saying 'yea I'm a loving musician and I don't know poo poo soooo'. As the name suggests, they're maintaining a policy of boycott, divestment and sanctions. That includes a cultural boycott as it did with South Africa. Also the festival apparently is one with a strong humanitarian/human rights slant. Let's face it, BDS don't accomplish much and aren't going to be putting Soda Stream out of business any time soon. If a local branch of BDS gets word that a pro-zionist (even if they're not a hardcore pro-zionist) is playing at a local festival promoting human rights and equality that seems like it would probably support a boycott, it seems like a no-brainer to try and get a boycott going regardless of his religion or nationality. Probably the biggest news here is BDS actually accomplishing something. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 08:15
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Ytlaya posted:I think the key problem is, as a few other people have mentioned, the fact that he was (apparently) the only one asked to give this statement. Given the fact that he's not even Israeli himself, I can't help but think that there's some antisemitism involved. True, the article does say some of the other performers were in on not wanting Matisyahu there (unclear how much due to BDS), but I can see why at the very least those performers weren't asked. Also the festival had a panel on the IP issue last year, so this isn't totally out of the blue. All that said it is pretty dumb to require such a statement just for someone to perform, and is really dumb to only require it of only one person.
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Aug 17, 2015 08:19
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:True, the article does say some of the other performers were in on not wanting Matisyahu there (unclear how much due to BDS), but I can see why at the very least those performers weren't asked. Well it's due to him have made pro-zionist statements and actions in the past. If there were any other performers there who have done the same and he was the only one unfairly picked out then you've got a point. Otherwise why would other performers be asked to do the same?
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Aug 17, 2015 08:24
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team overhead smash posted:Well it's due to him have made pro-zionist statements and actions in the past. If there were any other performers there who have done the same and he was the only one unfairly picked out then you've got a point. Otherwise why would other performers be asked to do the same? Bad optics? Even if you are only targeting one person having them all do it at least makes it look less like you are loving with one person, and given the others seem to already support Palestine* it shouldn't be too hard to get them to sign something. Puts more pressure on Matisyahu to actually do something too, rather than just alienating him. Fuck You And Diebold fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 08:30
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Bad optics? Even if you are only targeting one person having them all do it at least makes it look less like you are loving with one person, and given the others seem to already support Israel it shouldn't be too hard to get them to sign something. Puts more pressure on Matisyahu to actually do something too, rather than just alienating him. Oh, I thought you were criticising from a moral rather than tactical perspective.
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Aug 17, 2015 08:33
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I have a hard time thinking he was the only artist there who'd ever made statements as offensive as "there wasn't a Palestine before Israel, right?" and "Israel actually gives a ton of aid to Gaza and doesn't deserve its bum rap (five years ago)." I can believe he was the most Jewy looking artist there, though. If being pro-Palestine was somehow important to the concert or the other artists, they should at least have asked everyone to make a "human rights are cool, let Palestine exist" tweet.
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Aug 17, 2015 08:41
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Ytlaya posted:I think the key problem is, as a few other people have mentioned, the fact that he was (apparently) the only one asked to give this statement. Given the fact that he's not even Israeli himself, I can't help but think that there's some antisemitism involved.
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Aug 17, 2015 08:41
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Kajeesus posted:I have a hard time thinking he was the only artist there who'd ever made statements as offensive as "there wasn't a Palestine before Israel, right?" and "Israel actually gives a ton of aid to Gaza and doesn't deserve its bum rap (five years ago)." I can believe he was the most Jewy looking artist there, though. If being pro-Palestine was somehow important to the concert or the other artists, they should at least have asked everyone to make a "human rights are cool, let Palestine exist" tweet. I don't think you can really make everyone tweet something like that or even that it would be necessary. Making this kind of demand to one performer is doable because one performer can be replaced, to two hundred and fifty performers at the last minute before the performance starts has the chance to cause chaos and sink the festival and I think expecting them to do that is unrealistic. Also I don't think the demand was that they so much had to be pro-Palestinian (I doubt the majority of performers who likely don't have strong feelings either way on the conflict or much knowledge of it) but rather that Matisyahu had shown himself to be anti-Palestinian in the past.
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Aug 17, 2015 08:54
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Were there other Jewish artists? Were they made to sign this pledge? Supporting Israel is supporting apartheid and colonialism, any private person and organization has the right to exclude people who hold such morally bankrupt positions.
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Aug 17, 2015 09:09
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