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Jerusalem posted:Also don't marry too pretty a lady, because then Zeus will try to get it on with her and Hera will gently caress you up for it. Thucydides' palpable contempt of the Spartans for missing great opportunities due to bad omens is really great to read. Almost as much as his venom for Cleon or general eye-rolling at Athenian exuberance. On the one hand he's breaking down this very realpoltik rational actors diplomatic world and the next he's throwing shade over people being too cautious or not nearly cautious enough and it's great. The gods, in general, are pretty absent from Thucy's narrative, except when people do poo poo because of the oracles/sacrifices/slights over who burned whose temple.
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Aug 19, 2015 09:11
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the JJ posted:Yeah, definitely a position thrust upon him. Though he stayed with them through Thrace and then back to Ionia. It looks like in book 5, chapter 8, after they reach the Black Sea. The generals are put on trial to account for their deeds, several are fined, and Xenophon is tried for cruelty. In the chapter before, some other soldiers are charged with formenting trouble and are executed, so I must have confused the two incidents in my recollections.
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Aug 19, 2015 11:30
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Grand Fromage posted:Yeah there were definitely Greeks who did not buy any of that poo poo. There are several whose names we know so there must have been a lot more. I`m pretty sure as far as anyone can tell most Romans gave the kind of lip service to religion that people in the Western world give it today. It`s part of your culture and heritage but you generally give no fucks
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Aug 19, 2015 16:35
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The simple fact is that people's interaction with religion today and religion in the ancient world aren't significantly different. The tenets of religion may vary wildly but in any age you will have a full range of people from the incredibly devout (how into it do you have to be to be a priest of Magna Mater and cut your own balls off with a broken pot shard?) to the atheist. E: We keep getting back to it but a lot of history questions do lead back to the fact that humanity's fundamental nature just hasn't changed all that much in the past 50,000 years. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Aug 19, 2015 |
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Aug 19, 2015 17:01
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Our biological nature vis a vis our basic neural template at birth has not, but I'll loving fgiht you if you dare to suggest that biological starting base in any way fundamental to the human condition and how we experience it. Even if we today share some some of our attitudes towards religion, the minds of our Roman ancestors are as alien to us as ours are to them. I hope, anyway. They were some pretty hosed up people.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:24
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Friendly Tumour posted:Our biological nature vis a vis our basic neural template at birth has not, but I'll loving fgiht you if you dare to suggest that biological starting base in any way fundamental to the human condition and how we experience it. Even if we today share some some of our attitudes towards religion, the minds of our Roman ancestors are as alien to us as ours are to them. I hope, anyway. They were some pretty hosed up people.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:37
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Of course it is. Language, for an example, is part of our biology and is fundamental to our humanity.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:37
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Grand Fromage posted:The simple fact is that people's interaction with religion today and religion in the ancient world aren't significantly different. The tenets of religion may vary wildly but in any age you will have a full range of people from the incredibly devout (how into it do you have to be to be a priest of Magna Mater and cut your own balls off with a broken pot shard?) to the atheist. One of the funniest things you learn when you minor in folklore is how people today are exactly as primitive in their magical thinking as people in history. One of Tony Robinson's shows had a really cool experiment where they asked the participants to send them pictures of their loved ones, then printed out copies of pictures and asked people to stab the picture with a knife. Most people won't do it.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:44
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Kemper Boyd posted:One of the funniest things you learn when you minor in folklore is how people today are exactly as primitive in their magical thinking as people in history. One of Tony Robinson's shows had a really cool experiment where they asked the participants to send them pictures of their loved ones, then printed out copies of pictures and asked people to stab the picture with a knife. Most people won't do it.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:46
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Kemper Boyd posted:One of the funniest things you learn when you minor in folklore is how people today are exactly as primitive in their magical thinking as people in history. One of Tony Robinson's shows had a really cool experiment where they asked the participants to send them pictures of their loved ones, then printed out copies of pictures and asked people to stab the picture with a knife. Most people won't do it. Calling this "primitive magical thinking" is some hyperrational bullshit imo.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:48
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HEY GAL posted:Our brains aren't fundamental to the way we think and feel? OK, fight me. I don't think you quite understand what I wrote. Genetics is important insofar as it sets the basic neural template we are born with, but beyond the functioning of individual neurons our genetics has no influence on our minds. Genetics is incredibly useless for understanding people.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:49
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I suspect you're wrong about that but considering how little we understand about brain function and thought there's not much point in arguing about it. Hopefully some day we'll know more.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:55
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Friendly Tumour posted:I don't think you quite understand what I wrote. Genetics is important insofar as it sets the basic neural template we are born with, but beyond the functioning of individual neurons our genetics has no influence on our minds. Genetics is incredibly useless for understanding people.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:00
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Well it's a question of perspectives, but actually we understand brain function quite well! Honestly as biologist the whole topic makes makes me unreasonably angry, mostly due to the unbelievable misconceptions that people carry about how genetics actually works. Thanks, tabloids.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:03
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I expect the biggest difference between our brains and the average Roman's brain would be from better neonatal nutrition; what do you think, FT?
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Aug 19, 2015 18:07
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Idk I think the move from polytheism to monotheism shows a substantial change in the human experience of religion over time.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:08
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Friendly Tumour posted:Well it's a question of perspectives, but actually we understand brain function quite well! As a graduate student specifically studying the brain, no we really don't. EDIT: I mean unless you know all the answers to really obvious questions like 'why do people need to sleep', even before we get into detailed investigation on specific regions, in which case I'm all ears.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:09
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Ras Het posted:Calling this "primitive magical thinking" is some hyperrational bullshit imo. I was sort of getting at the thing where we look at people in history and think of them as primitive for doing that kind of thing, while we are precisely the same today.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:17
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euphronius posted:Idk I think the move from polytheism to monotheism shows a substantial change in the human experience of religion over time. I don't know, as there were plenty of people who seemed to only really care about one god, and kept up appearances of respecting other ones just for social decency.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:19
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Tunicate posted:As a graduate student specifically studying the brain, no we really don't. I was mostly talking about how neurons function and how columns work. Point being that there isn't really anything mystical about brains. I mean yeah, we can't map them efficiently and we can't really figure out how individual neural nets are connected (also known as people), but we can definately say that we know much genetics influences the functioning of individuals. Yes, genetics affects us through how it alters the functioning of individual neurons and how brain regions are formed during foetal and infantile periods, but once it gets going a brain is essentially independent from genetics insofar as individual columnar units are concerned.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:23
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This is a really bad absraction and I'm sorry for indulging in it.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:25
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Friendly Tumour posted:I was mostly talking about how neurons function and how columns work. Point being that there isn't really anything mystical about brains. I mean yeah, we can't map them efficiently and we can't really figure out how individual neural nets are connected (also known as people), but we can definately say that we know much genetics influences the functioning of individuals. Yes, genetics affects us through how it alters the functioning of individual neurons and how brain regions are formed during foetal and infantile periods, but once it gets going a brain is essentially independent from genetics insofar as individual columnar units are concerned. The column model is a horrible oversimplification 
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Aug 19, 2015 18:27
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Tunicate posted:The column model is a horrible oversimplification Synapses are the basic computational units of the brain 
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Aug 19, 2015 18:28
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Also yes, they are. But christ on a tricycle it's impossible to talk about biology without simplification.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:30
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sullat posted:It looks like in book 5, chapter 8, after they reach the Black Sea. The generals are put on trial to account for their deeds, several are fined, and Xenophon is tried for cruelty. In the chapter before, some other soldiers are charged with formenting trouble and are executed, so I must have confused the two incidents in my recollections. Sure, but he didn't quit. He sticks around as an officer through the end of the narrative even. I thought the debate was whether he stuck with them when they went tromping back to Ionia for a little revenge, or if he just stayed in touch with his war buddies and got the skinny from them. He definitely goes into great detail of that specific campaign in the Hellenika
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Aug 19, 2015 18:39
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euphronius posted:Idk I think the move from polytheism to monotheism shows a substantial change in the human experience of religion over time. Is it that cut and dry though? In the modern world we often consider Hinduism the only major polytheistic religion. But it's a lot more complicated than that--the various gods (at least in some versions, I am no Hinduologist) are all aspects of Brahman, a single deity. So there's a strong argument it's monotheistic. But with multiple gods. In the other direction you have Christianity, which has the problem of the Trinity that's been driving Christian theologians into fits for 2000ish years. And Roman Catholics have Mary and all the saints, who aren't gods yet you can direct prayers to them and you sort of worship them except you don't but what exactly is the difference between worship and veneration and Then Buddhism is all over the place and super syncretic, there's Daoism which is its own thing but also almost part of Buddhism in a way, and Shinto is really complicated and very few people claim to actually be Shinto yet a huge number of Japanese people still follow most of the beliefs while saying they aren't Shinto and You see my point.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:44
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Theology is hosed up
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Aug 19, 2015 18:48
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Kemper Boyd posted:I was sort of getting at the thing where we look at people in history and think of them as primitive for doing that kind of thing, while we are precisely the same today. Ah, yeah, that I agree with.
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Aug 19, 2015 19:12
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Nothing in the humanities is cut and dry.
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Aug 19, 2015 20:04
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Grand Fromage posted:Is it that cut and dry though? In the modern world we often consider Hinduism the only major polytheistic religion. But it's a lot more complicated than that--the various gods (at least in some versions, I am no Hinduologist) are all aspects of Brahman, a single deity. So there's a strong argument it's monotheistic. But with multiple gods. From a comparative religion POV, it's easy to say that both Hinduism and Roman Catholicism both take forms of practice that are polytheistic. Then after having said that you can argue with theology majors if the theology or practice of a religion is more important. The most important thing is that the theology majors buy the drinks tho.
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Aug 19, 2015 21:34
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Grand Fromage posted:In the other direction you have Christianity, which has the problem of the Trinity that's been driving Christian theologians into fits for 2000ish years. Constantine: No no no, I sorted all this out once and for all 1700 years ago!
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Aug 19, 2015 23:50
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Well, it looks like even scholars aren't safe from ISIS. What a way to go, I guess.quote:Khaled Asaad was a respected scholar who devoted more than five decades of his life to preserving the majestic, 2000-year-old ruins of Palmyra, a city in the Syrian desert. http://www.smh.com.au/world/islamic-state-beheads-elderly-syrian-antiquities-scholar-khaled-asaad-20150819-gj37ku.html
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Aug 20, 2015 00:24
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No human life is worth losing over artifacts, but I'm pretty sure the guy knew they were probably gonna kill him anyway, and you've got to give props to a guy who had the balls to refuse to allow such historically significant things to fall into the hands of these giant dipshits. I sure as hell wouldn't have those kind of guts.
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Aug 20, 2015 01:31
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Why are we talking about the brain? Everyone knows that's just an organ that regulates cooling in the body. Now if we were talking about the vehicle that transmits thoughts and emotions in the body, which everyone knows is blood, we might be able to get somewhere.
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Aug 20, 2015 02:03
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It's not the blood, stupid. The blood just flows into the heart. That's why Anubis uses it to weigh your sins. Can we please try to think scientifically here?
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Aug 20, 2015 02:24
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Jerusalem posted:No human life is worth losing over artifacts, but I'm pretty sure the guy knew they were probably gonna kill him anyway, and you've got to give props to a guy who had the balls to refuse to allow such historically significant things to fall into the hands of these giant dipshits. I sure as hell wouldn't have those kind of guts. Me either. Dude's a hero. Maybe if I was 82 I'd have the balls to say I'm going to be dead soon anyway, go gently caress yourselves.
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Aug 20, 2015 04:12
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Grand Fromage posted:Maybe if I was 82 I'd have the balls to say I'm going to be dead soon anyway, go gently caress yourselves. That alone takes guts, but they tortured him for over a month before killing him, trying to make him talk. And say what you will about ISIL, I reckon they know how to torture.
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Aug 20, 2015 07:33
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If I had a working body, I'd go fight with the peshmergas against them. Those people are the enemy and they must be obliterated.
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Aug 20, 2015 09:56
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This is horrifying indeed. I expect my faculty will be passing this story around with sadness today.
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Aug 20, 2015 12:20
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Friendly Tumour posted:If I had a working body A tiny little caveat.
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Aug 20, 2015 12:43
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