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im very excited for the Rose Actualizes Her Brand subplot, coming sometime either next year or around the heat death of the universe
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Aug 19, 2015 03:14
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Bongo Bill posted:It's a story. Things that have been included in the story "happened" regardless of the rigor and explication of the causal link between them and other events. The page still exists. You haven't been caused to unread it. It's still part of the story and therefore it still matters to it. I forgot how great the dream sequence after that was. The shittiest wizards. Welp the following months might be the best time to reread the whole comic before the end I guess.
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Aug 19, 2015 03:37
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:No seriously, John retcons poo poo outside the comic's scope so he's not bound by the laws of Alpha/beta timelines so how the gently caress do that Vriska and Terezi ghosts even exist? Even by the comic rules they should be here anymore. Cause Dream bubbles are for Alpha/beta timeline ghosts and John's actions should have wiped that whole time line away clean. Ghosts stay existing after a retcon in the same way ghosts stay existing after a scratch, really not that hard. The furthest ring is BEYOND alpha and beta timelines, that it's not as restrictive as you feel it should be is not the comic's fault.
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Aug 19, 2015 05:09
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So I haven't read Homestuck since, uh, when everybody met up on the lilypad, like four months ago? Been blitzing through everything now and I just got to the part where Davepetasprite^2 is born and I'm basically in tears laughing here, literally tears, and was hoping somebody could point to the page of the thread where that happened. Anyway back to reading. EDIT: oh god it speaks SatansBestBuddy fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Aug 19, 2015 |
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Aug 19, 2015 06:21
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SatansBestBuddy posted:So I haven't read Homestuck since, uh, when everybody met up on the lilypad, like four months ago? Here you go. You'll be able to see the exact moment the update hits.
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Aug 19, 2015 07:44
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reignonyourparade posted:Ghosts stay existing after a retcon in the same way ghosts stay existing after a scratch, really not that hard. The furthest ring is BEYOND alpha and beta timelines, that it's not as restrictive as you feel it should be is not the comic's fault. They're not really the same, though. A Scratch only affects in Incipisphere of the players' session so it's not really a mystery that ghosts can exist after it. All it does is end the game and create the conditions for another game to be played with a swapped group of players in an alternate universe. This does not prevent any ghosts from that session going on to exist in a dream bubble. A session that gets Scratched still "occurred" in the story because it is necessary to allow an alternate universe to spawn a session with swapped players. Similarly, beta timelines still "happen" within the story, even if a time traveler "undoes" them. People who die within these undone storylines can go on to the dream bubbles because they events that killed them happened within the story, much as the devices that undid them operate according to the rules of the setting. The void beyond the Furthest Ring is a "place" where time loses a lot of meaning (especially linearity and a constant rate of advancement) but it does so according to rules established for the narrative by the author. Before the retcon, it was understood as a plot device beyond the branching of timelines but not beyond the basic ground rules of the setting as authored. By contrast, the retcon operates on the same level as the author establishing these rules and so is beyond any physical or logical constraints in which characters in the story called "Homestuck" operate, including time. What I mean is, it is beyond specific timelines mattering at all because it is not time travel. It allows a character to be an editor of the story in which he or she exists and this means that unlike time travel creating a beta timeline or players scratching their session, retcons can cause events within the story to not ever have happened at all. This is what that scene where John interrupts Jade trying to get Dave to fight establishes. Now obviously this is a metanarrative device, but ghosts surviving the conditions under which they died being edited out of the story, such that they do not even happen in a beta timeline (because retconning does not actually create a beta timeline) suggests that the void beyond the Furthest Ring is also a metanarrative device, not just a plot device operating within the narrative. The fact that (Vriska) survived retconning fundamentally changed how we know dream bubbles and ghosts "work" in a way that persisting after a Scrath did not. eta: I guess I can condense all these dumb words by saying that it's the difference between something working outside of the laws of time as characters in the story understand it, and something operating outside of the laws of time as the audience of the story understands it. words about homsetock GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Aug 19, 2015 |
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Aug 19, 2015 15:30
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Bobulus posted:Final sprite tally: Useful post deserves reposting.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:28
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Too many sprites.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:33
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I think there's a Pepsi-Cola at the bottom of the ice bucket.
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Aug 19, 2015 17:35
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I think there's a Pepsi-Cola at the bottom of the ice bucket. soda selection at parties always gotta suck
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Aug 19, 2015 18:12
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I don't see why people buy sprite; I've never actually seen anyone drink it who was above the age of like, eight.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:35
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Tunicate posted:I don't see why people buy sprite; I've never actually seen anyone drink it who was above the age of like, eight. It's the right mixer for Pimm's Cup. Also one of the few uncaffeinated sodas that is readily available.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:37
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It's also not bad on an upset stomach.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:43
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Yeah, the only time I have Sprite / 7-Up is when I'm sick as a dog and can't keep down more than liquid.
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Aug 19, 2015 18:49
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GunnerJ posted:They're not really the same, though. A Scratch only affects in Incipisphere of the players' session so it's not really a mystery that ghosts can exist after it. All it does is end the game and create the conditions for another game to be played with a swapped group of players in an alternate universe. This does not prevent any ghosts from that session going on to exist in a dream bubble. A session that gets Scratched still "occurred" in the story because it is necessary to allow an alternate universe to spawn a session with swapped players. Similarly, beta timelines still "happen" within the story, even if a time traveler "undoes" them. People who die within these undone storylines can go on to the dream bubbles because they events that killed them happened within the story, much as the devices that undid them operate according to the rules of the setting. The void beyond the Furthest Ring is a "place" where time loses a lot of meaning (especially linearity and a constant rate of advancement) but it does so according to rules established for the narrative by the author. Before the retcon, it was understood as a plot device beyond the branching of timelines but not beyond the basic ground rules of the setting as authored. The cherubs existed on post-scratch earth in another universe. That is only possible in the post retcon timeline. In otherwords, the cherubs always existed post retcon, but interacted with the kids preretcon. Just like the kids were able to interact across a scratch. So no it doesn't fundamentally change our understanding of the furthest ring, the furthest ring exists outside of time and space.
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Aug 19, 2015 19:50
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:The cherubs existed on post-scratch earth in another universe. This doesn't address what I said but I also don't feel like writing anything else about this so whatevs
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Aug 19, 2015 19:58
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GunnerJ posted:This doesn't address what I said but I also don't feel like writing anything else about this so whatevs No it directly addresses it by pointing out from the perspective of the furthest ring the retjohn always was a thing that happened, which fits our established understanding of how the furthest ring works. Likewise Terezi was able to use her seer of mindy abilities to pull memories from across the retjohn. Both of these show while john is unbounded by the laws of causality reality still takes account of his choices.
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Aug 19, 2015 20:16
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aight
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Aug 19, 2015 20:37
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Piano arrangement for Crystalmethequins, with sheet music.
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Aug 19, 2015 21:38
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WhitemageofDOOM posted:No it directly addresses it by pointing out from the perspective of the furthest ring the retjohn always was a thing that happened, which fits our established understanding of how the furthest ring works. Yeah, you're right, and it's a bit of a nuisance having the retcon power be limited that way. It basically functions like a regular player's time travel does, except this time it's the time traveler who remains the 'alpha' character and the new timeline's new instance of that character that has to get out of the way. The way it sometimes makes loops and other times alters the timeline toward the "correct" path works basically the same way, especially since the Game Over timeline was clearly a beta timeline (Gamzee dead and unable to complete his role as Caliborn minion). It was pitched as a power that can change the alpha timeline but I'm not convinced we've seen it actually do that yet. John using it eventually to attack Caliborn has already been predicted and is necessary to complete Lord English's Already Here loop, so it seems to be as locked in to the alpha timeline as anything else we've seen. Dave said he could tell John was breaking the alpha timeline when he interrupted the conversation between Dave and Jade but he might just be talking from his perspective as a time player, where his approach to changing time doesn't look the same as John's.
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Aug 19, 2015 22:38
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Arsenic Lupin posted:It's the right mixer for Pimm's Cup. Also one of the few uncaffeinated sodas that is readily available. Thank you for having good taste in alcohol.
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Aug 19, 2015 23:17
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Dolash posted:Yeah, you're right, and it's a bit of a nuisance having the retcon power be limited that way. It basically functions like a regular player's time travel does, except this time it's the time traveler who remains the 'alpha' character and the new timeline's new instance of that character that has to get out of the way. The way it sometimes makes loops and other times alters the timeline toward the "correct" path works basically the same way, especially since the Game Over timeline was clearly a beta timeline (Gamzee dead and unable to complete his role as Caliborn minion). The more I think about John's power, the more it seems like he just "inherited" the other 3 kids powers. Time to warp around to all these points. Space to teleport within a time, and Light so that he's always "fortunate" enough to never gently caress things up and ruin what timeline he returns to. This might be why his Denizen kills all other Johns. He can't muscle in on another Alpha-John, because he is the Prime-John. There aren't any others. It's either him or no one. Which leads further proof to LE being John's to kill, as he can only be defeated through a series of game breaking bugs and glitches. Like, say, one player having 4 Aspects. That seems rather game-breaking and buggy to me!
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Aug 20, 2015 00:18
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Classtoise posted:The more I think about John's power, the more it seems like he just "inherited" the other 3 kids powers. he did get it by touching a thing that contained all four them yeah. Makes sense.
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Aug 20, 2015 00:25
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He is the Heir, and what is an Heir to do but inherit?
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Aug 20, 2015 00:27
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Homestuck's setting is, essentially, a video game. Many attempts are made to get to the end and there are many failures, each prompting a need to go back to a previous save and try again. We usually disregard the characters in the failed attempts; the ones we see as the real characters are the ones that follow the game's written plot, that is to say, the Alpha timeline. Complicating this is that all the characters from the failed attempts are actually living on in the Furthest Ring, artificially preserved by the Horrorterrors past the point where they should have been unmade. They are even able to influence the real story, though in a limited manner - most of the ghosts we see out there are for alpha characters who died as part of the main plot. In this metaphor, John found the development tools, and is now writing his own plot in place of the prescribed alpha timeline. He's already stopped Aeris from dying and now what's left is to see where the new plot is going to go. All the ghosts out there in the furthest ring didn't get unmade for the same reason they still exist despite their deaths in irrelevant timelines. Vriska Minor kept existing just the same as the John that got killed by Typheus did. The strange thing about this is they way Lord English's origin story requires John to have gained the power to override his written plot. This may mean that Lord English only exists precisely because of John's loving around with Lord English, rather than our previous assumption of him having been already here.
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Aug 20, 2015 00:41
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Bongo Bill posted:It's a story. Things that have been included in the story "happened" regardless of the rigor and explication of the causal link between them and other events. The page still exists. You haven't been caused to unread it. It's still part of the story and therefore it still matters to it. Things can be written into a narrative that don't matter to the over all story and that's fine. It's just that so much of that happens in homestuck and so many things are dropped or at least postponed for so long that they kind of drag on and can be a big a bit of a slog to get through. Sure they happened, but they don't really matter and, your opinion on quality of the aside, feel like filler, which is impressive because it gets so much 'screentime'. This feeling's kind of been exacerbated because I recently finished a re-read and BOY a lot of the Exiles, the trolls/ancestor, and HUGE chunks of Act 6 feel like bad magician's patter. Just trying to keep you occupied while he sets up the trick. To me, they're worse on the re read since I KNOW they mostly go nowhere instead of just slogging through characters that aren't exactly great.
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Aug 20, 2015 06:52
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Things can be written into a narrative that don't matter to the over all story and that's fine. It's just that so much of that happens in homestuck and so many things are dropped or at least postponed for so long that they kind of drag on and can be a big a bit of a slog to get through. Sure they happened, but they don't really matter and, your opinion on quality of the aside, feel like filler, which is impressive because it gets so much 'screentime'. Yeah, a comedy story's gonna be less entertaining on reread since you already know the jokes.
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Aug 20, 2015 06:56
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Izzhov posted:Yeah, a comedy story's gonna be less entertaining on reread since you already know the jokes. Yeah, all those great jokes in the Troll Ancestor History lessons. Or any time the Scratch Kids talk about how much they all wanna gently caress Jake.
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Aug 20, 2015 07:26
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yeah, all those great jokes in the Troll Ancestor History lessons. Those things are actually jokes in themselves though. The troll ancestor history lessons are purposely overwrought, jargon-filled blather that Hussie once described as himself writing bad fanfiction for his own story. It's his take on all the backstory fanfics out there and how god damned self-important they all are, right down to a cheesy Christ allegory. It's even acknowledged in the narrative that the poo poo is tiresome and self-indulgent even by Homestuck's own standards. Everybody wanting to gently caress Jake is the spin on the Token Girl Character as played by a Dude. Strictly speaking, Jake's usefulness to the team is reduced to eye candy and serving as another character's motivation for doing actual things, while he helplessly flounders in a narrative that was never intended to have him taken seriously.
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Aug 20, 2015 08:11
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I personally think it's fine to assume that ZenMaster realizes a bunch of the reasons why Hussie might have done stuff and still think it's bad rather than always acting like he just doesn't "get it". The troll ancestors stuff and the "everyone wants the retarded kid's dick" are legit not fun to read.
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Aug 20, 2015 12:03
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I kinda liked the Ancestors stuff, for what it's worth, but I am a complete and utter sucker for worldbuilding. That being said, he did specifically said that he saw no jokes in those situations he mentioned, so it is possible that he just didn't notice them.
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Aug 20, 2015 12:07
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Latula was pretty radical.
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Aug 20, 2015 12:43
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I thought the Troll Ancestors section was funny. Doc Scratch was great
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Aug 20, 2015 13:20
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Prison Warden posted:I personally think it's fine to assume that ZenMaster realizes a bunch of the reasons why Hussie might have done stuff and still think it's bad rather than always acting like he just doesn't "get it". The troll ancestors stuff and the "everyone wants the retarded kid's dick" are legit not fun to read. Speak for yourself, dude. Remembering how mad everyone was toward the end of the Scratch interlude is legit hilarious, and lines like "it is a tale as interesting as it is verbosely told" while Hussie (the character) complains in the mouseover text is good poo poo.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:09
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God Hussie getting fed up with Doc Scratch and launching this big plan to put a stop to him and then him just being a puppet was one of the best parts of the whole comic I don't care what anyone says self insert Andrew Hussie is one of my favorite Homestuck characters
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Aug 20, 2015 16:11
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Izzhov posted:Yeah, a comedy story's gonna be less entertaining on reread since you already know the jokes. I don't know Red VS Blue remains pretty cool
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Aug 20, 2015 16:16
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Plom Bar posted:Speak for yourself, dude. Remembering how mad everyone was toward the end of the Scratch interlude is legit hilarious, and lines like "it is a tale as interesting as it is verbosely told" while Hussie (the character) complains in the mouseover text is good poo poo. Oh, God, there's mouseover text? Arrgh, must reread.
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Aug 20, 2015 17:25
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Oh, God, there's mouseover text? Arrgh, must reread. How did you miss it? It makes itself very clear: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005956
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Aug 20, 2015 18:02
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Oh, God, there's mouseover text? Arrgh, must reread. From here forward, the "title banner" image that tells a concurrent plot alongside Scratch's narration has mouseover text. It includes, towards the end, the very first glimpse of Lord English, which made everyone in this thread go NUTS at the time.
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Aug 20, 2015 18:03
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And it all culminates in this page where the mouseover text is pretty much the whole point.
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Aug 20, 2015 18:13
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