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semper wifi posted:I believe him, but really this is just "no guys im definitely black, my mom was a cheating whore" in way more words, compared to Breitbarts birth certificate and police report photos If you believe him what's the point of the second half of your sentence. "I believe Bush didn't do 9/11, but really have you seen this Loose Change video they have a lot of proof and it is true that jet fuel can't melt steel beams"
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Aug 21, 2015 04:54
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VitalSigns posted:If you believe him what's the point of the second half of your sentence. He's just grasping at straws and hoping to spin it in a way that can make the BLM movement look bad. See also, the other half of his post.
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Aug 21, 2015 05:13
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I believe Obama was born in Hawaii, but that's just the President's Kenyan-born word compared to reports of Photoshop layers in his long form so-called birth certificate and Breitbart's discovery of this one book jacket that says he's Kenyan.
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Aug 21, 2015 05:21
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I believe cops are on a power trip but what is it about all these blacks getting arrested?
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Aug 21, 2015 05:28
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PostNouveau posted:He's just grasping at straws and hoping to spin it in a way that can make the BLM movement look bad. See also, the other half of his post. On the one hand, police are murdering people on camera and getting away with it, but on the other hand this one dude might be white so both sides are bad and maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle?
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Aug 21, 2015 05:29
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VitalSigns posted:On the one hand, police are murdering people on camera and getting away with it, but on the other hand this one dude might be white so both sides are bad and maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle? I mean, the guy called his own mom a whore, so let's just pump the brakes on this whole police-not-shooting-unarmed-blacks thing.
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Aug 21, 2015 05:37
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PostNouveau posted:He's just grasping at straws and hoping to spin it in a way that can make the BLM movement look bad. See also, the other half of his post. Well that's my point, this being a thing at all makes them look bad, no spin needed. VitalSigns posted:If you believe him what's the point of the second half of your sentence. Commentary on the weakness of his denial I guess?
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Aug 21, 2015 05:47
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semper wifi posted:Well that's my point, this being a thing at all makes them look bad, no spin needed. So if there is controversy about a thing, that automatically lends credence to it and that it is a bad thing? Yes or no.
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Aug 21, 2015 05:51
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How does this make BLM look bad. Be specific. Should they be administering the pencil test or measuring cranial shape, how exactly have they dropped the ball here.
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Aug 21, 2015 06:00
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The layers of weird meta poo poo and irony involved in attempting to "out" a black activist as being white to discredit them are really difficult and stressful to think about.
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Aug 21, 2015 06:30
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Kalman posted:Reoffense rates, not reimprisonment rates, so the proportion of prison vs non-prison initial and later disposition doesn't matter. It seems like no matter where you go, roughly 40-50% of people who are punished for one crime will be punished for a subsequent crime as well. There are minor differences depending on initial punishment that might line up with what you're talking about, but they're hard to find data on that can actually be compared across countries and do appear to be fairly minor. It's quite possible while they are re-offending, they are doing so with lesser crimes. If the person started off with bank robbery but later re-offended with shoplifting, I call that an improvement hence why those people are getting hit with fines rather than prison. It's not like a punitive system is doing any better and dollar for dollar the rehabilitative system is likely be more cost effective and humane. For those arguing back and forth past each other on indefinite detention, here it's called Preventive Detention. It is reserved for the absolutely most heinous of crimes like Mass Murder or for people so psychologically disturbed reformation or treatment might not be possible. Unlike Life without parole, which is effectively one and done at sentencing(Stupid), if the person is indeed proven to been reformed or no longer a threat to society, it is possible for them to be released under supervision(Rare). Preventive Detention is a continuous process and is our heaviest "Punishment" we have(Murder gets you 20 years and will be served is parallel for multiple counts).
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Aug 21, 2015 06:46
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sugar free jazz posted:The layers of weird meta poo poo and irony involved in attempting to "out" a black activist as being white to discredit them are really difficult and stressful to think about. It kind of reminds me of those Phil Robertson or Cliven Bundy speeches from last year when they were talking about how happy and carefree blacks were before civil rights, and it's all white liberals getting them riled up. See! Here's one that might be white, I told you whites were just making up all those videos of cops murdering people on camera!
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Aug 21, 2015 06:51
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oohhboy posted:It's quite possible while they are re-offending, they are doing so with lesser crimes. If the person started off with bank robbery but later re-offended with shoplifting, I call that an improvement hence why those people are getting hit with fines rather than prison. It's not like a punitive system is doing any better and dollar for dollar the rehabilitative system is likely be more cost effective and humane. Except that the reoffense rates are based on people who initially were punished, not who were initially imprisoned, as I have noted several times. So there's no actual evidence that your statement regarding "it's quite possible while they are re-offending, they are doing so with lesser crimes" is accurate. It's possible. It's also possible they're committing worse crimes.
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Aug 21, 2015 07:12
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If they were committing worse crimes they would be more likely to be imprisoned rather than fined. The types of crime is likely to be very different from the US where it is unlikely to warrant prison. The focus on re-offence rates is unless without context. Are the people despite re-offending better citizens? Remember, unlike the US, they aren't throwing people away to the winds nor the trash. Norway also has a social safety net so even without a job(Likely exploitive in the US), they do have an income. Crime is committed for different reasons and probability of detection also different. Are people handing themselves in, surrendering in place or pleading guilty because they know they will get fair treatment? If the types of crimes are of a lesser severity, less violent even if it is happening at the same rate, that's a win for society at large.
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Aug 21, 2015 08:17
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Lotta ifs there with zero evidence for them.
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Aug 21, 2015 08:53
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Whites made the rule of who black people are. You do not get to imagine that it is black people's job to come up with a different definition of it. Jesus Christ this makes me feel genuinely annoyed and sad. Conservatives now see fit to turn on me, me exactly, and everyone like me. And this poor bastard finally broke down and posted an explanation--as if he had to explain himself--and it is far too revealing, and exactly what giggling Breitbart reader scum wanted to read; that his mom was a white tramp. You liars, this is what you're coming out with? "Oh he's black? But now what about this speeding ticket? And how can we even know who this guy's dad is? Among her many paramours."  Do you understand what depths of bigotry and shame you are plumbing?When black kids come up to you and demand "are you mixed?" They see it right away. Some people don't see it though; a lot of the time, they're white people.
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Aug 21, 2015 09:24
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Here's what we do know about the US. You have three strikes laws, mandatory minimums, harsher sentences. It means you can't re-offend as you are taken out of circulation unless in prison crimes are counted as part of said stats. Your imprisonment rates are insane. Then you have to take into account the social costs as imprisoning so many people for so long is expensive and is creating a lot of broken people. Kalman posted:Lotta ifs there with zero evidence for them. Lotta focus on one stat without proper context. If these compare stats in this link is even remotely accurate, Norway is doing up to hundreds of times better than the US. When Norway does do worse, it is on things like white collar crimes, drug use and theft of a non-violent nature. A number of stats have to be corrected for per capita for a proper comparison, however it doesn't get in the way of the fact that Norway has far better outcomes no matter how you twist it. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Norway/United-States/Crime
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Aug 21, 2015 09:37
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Yeah but you need harsh sentences as a deterrent to homicide which is why Norway has a much lower homicide rate than the US. I mean... Hang on...
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Aug 21, 2015 10:17
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The homicide rate in Norway means jack poo poo considering it's vastly different size, location, and demographics compared to the US.
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Aug 21, 2015 13:01
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Py-O-My posted:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/20/1413881/-Race-love-hate-and-me-A-distinctly-American-story I dont think posting a blog post by one of the people involved counts as 'proof' However this washington post article is quite good at disproving almost all of it instead: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...481440117711271
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Aug 21, 2015 13:01
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semper wifi posted:Well that's my point, this being a thing at all makes them look bad, no spin needed. Yes, being an anti-racist activist does look bad to racists without needing spin.
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Aug 21, 2015 13:48
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-Troika- posted:The homicide rate in Norway means jack poo poo considering it's vastly different size, location, and demographics compared to the US. Right. That was very much a false causation argument.
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Aug 21, 2015 14:18
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Demographics I MIGHT give you (and will discuss more later but I'm on my way to work) but what the gently caress do size and location have to do with it?
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Aug 21, 2015 14:22
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Lets see. Response times of law enforcement distance to physical and mental health care viability of a public transportation system being able to transport people who are to poor or unable to drive to their care and many other things. Size and location do mater.
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Aug 21, 2015 14:38
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Melthir posted:Lets see. Response times of law enforcement distance to physical and mental health care viability of a public transportation system being able to transport people who are to poor or unable to drive to their care and many other things. Size and location do mater. To the tune of 0.6% vs 4.5%? You're going to have to back this up with more than just spitballing.
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Aug 21, 2015 14:52
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Starshark posted:Demographics I MIGHT give you (and will discuss more later but I'm on my way to work) but what the gently caress do size and location have to do with it? Alaska has one of the highest murder rates in the US, and has a similar latitude, climate, and concentration of people near its southern borders. It is similarly predominantly white with enclaves of indigenous populations. Now if by demographics we're talking about economic inequalities, well, what do you know - the criminal justice system in the US directly contributes to that. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 14:59
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Norway and the US have about equal urban/rural ratios (5:1) and urban growth rates (1.5%).
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Aug 21, 2015 15:03
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Alaska has one of the highest murder rates in the US, and has a similar latitude, climate, and concentration of people near its southern borders. It is similarly predominantly white with enclaves of indigenous populations. ???? I don't think that coming in 20th out of 50 qualifies as "one of the highest" http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state
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Aug 21, 2015 15:09
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Dahn posted:???? I don't think that coming in 20th out of 50 qualifies as "one of the highest" My fault, was working from memory - its violent crime rate is one of the highest in the US (somebody's doing the raping), but the murder rate is in the middle of the pack. Which is still nearly an order of magnitude higher than Norway though despite all of the similarities.
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Aug 21, 2015 15:15
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I'm not even convinced by the demographics argument. I think what's being unsaid is that America has a higher murder rate because of mixed races. I know Troika is going to say I'm putting words in his mouth, so if he doesn't like it maybe next time he can be more explicit in his arguments in tossing out one-liners. The race issue is what is usually brought up by his type when 'demographics' is invoked. The UK has an 87% white population (compared to US 63%) with a history of colonialism and racism and racial antagonism towards its minorities. It's murder rate is 1 (US is 4.6-4.7 depending on who you ask). France has a similiar make up with a massive racist history especially towards its North African population, its murder rate is 1. So it needs to be explained why the US has nearly five times the rate of homicide with a 24% difference in racial make up. I'm seriously not convinced that demographics is the answer and anyone who says it is, is going to have to come up with more than one-liners.
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Aug 21, 2015 15:16
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:My fault, was working from memory - it's violent crime rate is one of the highest in the US (somebody's doing the raping), but the murder rate is in the middle of the pack. There does seem to be a lot of raping going on there. Highest in the nation with South Dakota a close second. http://www.businessinsider.com/why-does-alaska-have-such-a-high-rate-rape-2013-9
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Aug 21, 2015 15:19
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You could look at the differences in levels of poverty between those countries for one idea.
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Aug 21, 2015 15:19
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Look everywhere but the police and criminal justice system, of course.
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Aug 21, 2015 15:20
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serious gaylord posted:You could look at the differences in levels of poverty between those countries for one idea. Which is in part perpetuated by the criminal justice system, including the length and conditions of incarceration, lack of rehabilitation, and racial disparities with enforcement. So we've basically come around full circle.
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Aug 21, 2015 15:21
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Which is in part perpetuated by the criminal justice system, including the length and conditions of incarceration, lack of rehabilitation, and racial disparities with enforcement. So we've basically come around full circle. Don't forget literally stealing from the populace through fines and court fees like in Ferguson.
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Aug 21, 2015 15:22
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And let's not forget what brought us here in the first place - AR's assertion that heavy sentences for murder are a deterrent. If so, why is America's homicide rate nearly five times the rate of the UK? As of 2013 the UK had 50 people serving a 'life means life' sentence while the US had 40 000 including 2 500 under the age of 18, not counting those facing the death penalty. Also not counting people serving ridiculous sentences like 200 years but technically not 'life means life' sentences. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22912075
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Aug 21, 2015 15:34
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Starshark posted:And let's not forget what brought us here in the first place - AR's assertion that heavy sentences for murder are a deterrent. If so, why is America's homicide rate nearly five times the rate of the UK? As of 2013 the UK had 50 people serving a 'life means life' sentence while the US had 40 000 including 2 500 under the age of 18, not counting those facing the death penalty. Also not counting people serving ridiculous sentences like 200 years but technically not 'life means life' sentences. You are confusing general deterrence with specific deterrence. Long jail terms absolutely have a specific deterrent effect. That person is unable to continue his criminal conduct while he is incarcerated. The longer he is incarcerated for, the longer he is unable to recidivate.
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Aug 21, 2015 15:54
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ActusRhesus posted:You are confusing general deterrence with specific deterrence. Long jail terms absolutely have a specific deterrent effect. That person is unable to continue his criminal conduct while he is incarcerated. The longer he is incarcerated for, the longer he is unable to recidivate. So if it works so well we should be seeing lower murder rates, yeah?
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Aug 21, 2015 15:55
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We would have a 0% recidivism rate if we instituted the death penalty for every crime, makes you think
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Aug 21, 2015 15:57
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Starshark posted:So if it works so well we should be seeing lower murder rates, yeah? VitalSigns posted:We would have a 0% recidivism rate if we instituted the death penalty for every crime, makes you think
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Aug 21, 2015 16:00
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