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podcat posted:We are making computer games, not history books so we can discriminate as much as we want with facts. podcat posted:although if you read my paragraph above you'll see how its different.
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Aug 21, 2015 11:34
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This thread is ridiculous. The reality of WW2 is that it's not very interesting if everything plays out historically. So who gives a flying gently caress whether or not the Holocaust is present. Who cares if Stalin was a evil, paranoid, tyrannical dictator. That has nothing to do with make an interesting game. If you play Paradox games to roleplay you are a loving dipshit in the first place but even then, the magic of roleplay is that you are making up 99% of it up as you go along so go the extra mile and just ignore the event you clicked on or something. Jesus.
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Aug 21, 2015 11:40
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Drone posted:Edit: also slightly off-topic but it's kinda sorta disheartening that, on the Hearts of Iron 4 website, the Axis side has a pretty overwhelming lead on the Allies or Comintern for beta signups. Well you could read it as some commentary on their political leanings, I'd be prone to also just take it as the Axis usually has the most fun gameplay from '36 until '48 or '50 or whenever the game calendar ends.
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Aug 21, 2015 11:46
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I love how the thread goes into spasms of joy at seeing the Paradox forumites reaction to Sunset Invasion, yet spergs out hard at the suggestion by a Dev that they might not want to make a game where the player is actively complicit in the holocaust. e: ps I really like developing recon and battle tactics to work together. It's definitely the sort of mechanic that builds into a grand strategy 'how do I provide the tools my army needs to win' theme rather than a wargame 'how do I move these identical counters around the map to win' theme. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 11:54
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Gas this thread
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Aug 21, 2015 12:08
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Alchenar posted:I love how the thread goes into spasms of joy at seeing the Paradox forumites reaction to Sunset Invasion, yet spergs out hard at the suggestion by a Dev that they might not want to make a game where the player is actively complicit in the holocaust. I don't think most people debating the issue are saying that? People seem to be saying that the Dev should not make a game where Stalin's purges are presented as the right thing to do by suggesting that there was a real Trotskyite conspiracy against Stalin, by analogising it to making a game where the holocaust is presented as the right thing to do because there was a real Jewish conspiracy against Germany. They're not saying "you should do the latter because you did the former", they're saying "since you realise doing the latter would be abhorrent, please don't do the former, or at the very least don't suggest it was the right thing to do".
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Aug 21, 2015 12:10
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Drone posted:Has anyone yet mentioned the fact that Paradox's hands are very much tied by its legal team in this matter? If the design premise is "we want to provide gameplay-based advantages to activating Stalin's Purges so that the player is in the same mindset (that it should have been done) as Stalin historically was", which is then juxtaposed against the complete omission of the Holocaust, the proposed solution isn't "how do we pull off the same thing with the Holocaust tastefully and legally", but rather "maybe we shouldn't try that approach at all because it would imply having to do the same with the Holocaust, which we then have to treat tastefully and legally"
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Aug 21, 2015 13:02
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I can send a million sprite soldiers to their doom, but mentioning Stalin's purges are a bridge too far
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Aug 21, 2015 13:12
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Dibujante posted:This is actually a pretty neat idea. Generally, games aren't good at simulating folly. E.g. if a player knows that raising tariffs on the 13 colonies will push them to rebellion, they simply won't. People have the benefit of hindsight now, and know not to purge the officers / support jiang-kai-shek / bomb pearl harbour / leave the ardennes lightly defended / support french colonialism in vietnam / start ww2 at all / vote reagan. I like that you're changing the "facts" to fit the facts as were understood at the time and that lead to the choices that people made. Yeah, stamping out hindsight advantages as much as possible has been one of the core goals for HOI4. also jeeeeesus this thread.....
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Aug 21, 2015 13:13
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A technology tree that allows for the development and use of nuclear weapons, but please nothing political- that means I care
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Aug 21, 2015 13:13
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Gas this thread.
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Aug 21, 2015 13:13
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I don't get this thread sometimes.
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Aug 21, 2015 13:16
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Kainser posted:I don't get this thread sometimes. Thanks for contributing this valuable opinion to it? Edit: Though I guess I'm not really making things better. I like the stuff in the new dev diary where recon companies give you a chance to pick the right counter to the one your opponent chose. Could be very powerful in larger battles. Not 100% sure if I like the hard limit of five support companies maximum per division, I would have thought cost would be enough of a limiter on its own. It may not even matter though, most divisions might only see marginal benefits from 6+ support companies anyway. Gort fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 13:19
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You guys are being dumbos. Try reading what podcat is saying from a game design perspective instead of getting morally outraged over a WW2 computer game?
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Aug 21, 2015 13:22
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RestRoomLiterature- posted:Gas this thread. Don't gas this thread, just purge it :iamafag:
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Aug 21, 2015 13:22
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podcat posted:Obviously the german version can't contain that portrait for legal reasons though. Please do a dramatic circus clown painting at the same angle and uniform to replace.
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Aug 21, 2015 13:23
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Disco Infiva posted:Don't gas this thread, just purge it :iamafag: 
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Aug 21, 2015 13:31
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Drone posted:Aw, got excited for a sec that he would have been on the normal Bombcast for a few minutes to talk about PDS and stuff. I'm a GB fan but pretty much every time Paradox comes up, they all kinda adopt this leery tone of "yeah they're doing really well for themselves but those games... are weird..." Although I am pleasantly surprised about the interview and the CK2 livestream scheduled later today because the new guy spearheading all of that had previously said he shelved all the really involved strategy games he enjoyed for the time reason.
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Aug 21, 2015 13:38
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Wiz posted:You guys are being dumbos. Try reading what podcat is saying from a game design perspective instead of getting morally outraged over a WW2 computer game? Axis Empires: Totaler Krieg does the same thing with the purges- keeping Tukhachevsky on board gives you advantages but there's a chance of a military coup later on.
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Aug 21, 2015 13:46
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Wiz posted:You guys are being dumbos. Try reading what podcat is saying from a game design perspective instead of getting morally outraged over a WW2 computer game? I was going to make this point, but figured we'd just get a page of people further making GBS threads up the thread trying to prove that the holocaust could be turned into interesting gameplay choices 
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Aug 21, 2015 13:47
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Fintilgin posted:Please do a dramatic circus clown painting at the same angle and uniform to replace. Please make this an option in the non-German version as well.
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Aug 21, 2015 13:49
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podcat posted:btw new dev diary: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hearts-of-iron-iv-21st-development-diary-21st-of-august-2015.877882 Since choice of tactics depends on composition, commander traits and doctrine will the AI take this into account when assigning commanders to forces (or forces to a commander)? Also will we be able to see what kind of tactics a given commander can use?
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Aug 21, 2015 14:10
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Randarkman posted:Since choice of tactics depends on composition, commander traits and doctrine will the AI take this into account when assigning commanders to forces (or forces to a commander)? Also will we be able to see what kind of tactics a given commander can use? yeah there is an interface you can open listing them all and what limits their use.
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Aug 21, 2015 14:12
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Nice. Another question I was thinking of, will it be possible to see what choice another nation has made for its focus tree? I imagine some of them will pop up as global events, but I figure it might be necessary to get a kind of picture of just what Hitler or Stalin or whatever is up to when you choose your own.
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Aug 21, 2015 14:18
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Randarkman posted:Nice. you can see it. its part of espionagey stuff we'll talk about later.
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Aug 21, 2015 14:55
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Wiz posted:You guys are being dumbos. Try reading what podcat is saying from a game design perspective Wiz posted:instead of getting morally outraged over a WW2 computer game? podcat posted:The line really is if the events in question creep out my morals in which case they dont get in. podcat posted:I was going to make this point, but figured we'd just get a page of people further making GBS threads up the thread trying to prove that the holocaust could be turned into interesting gameplay choices
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Aug 21, 2015 15:04
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Well, from purely a reasonable perspective, I do think that a 770+ page thread is getting a bit long in the tooth. The OP would need to be refreshed with the latest developments, like  Stellaris , the latest CK2 patches, updated links to the new dev diaries for HOI4 and so on.
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Aug 21, 2015 15:19
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What Hitler portrait are we referring to anyway? It's been a long time since I've played vanilla HoI2, but I always remember like Hitler looking like his lovely old self with his bad hair and dumb moustache.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:08
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unwantedplatypus posted:Gas this thread looking at today's date i think an icepick would be more appropriate.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:09
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David Corbett posted:What Hitler portrait are we referring to anyway? It's been a long time since I've played vanilla HoI2, but I always remember like Hitler looking like his lovely old self with his bad hair and dumb moustache. HOI4 has hand painted "heroic" portraits instead of photos.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:14
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This one.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:17
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Fintilgin posted:HOI4 has hand painted "heroic" portraits instead of photos. They should be randomly-generated CK2 style potraits, imo
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Aug 21, 2015 16:22
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That doesn't look like Berlin at all!
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Aug 21, 2015 16:29
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Baronjutter posted:That doesn't look like Berlin at all! In ten years time, you won't recognise Berlin.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:31
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podcat posted:The line really is if the events in question creep out my morals in which case they dont get in. Those events don't creep you out? Have you read transcripts of show trials at the height of the Purge, Old Bolsheviks pleading for their lives and proclaiming their love of Stalin until the very end? Solzhenitsyn's description of the gulags? Anything about the Katyn Massacre? quote:Blokhin initially decided on an ambitious quota of 300 executions per night; and engineered an efficient system in which the prisoners were individually led to a small antechamber—which had been painted red and was known as the "Leninist room"—for a brief and cursory positive identification, before being handcuffed and led into the execution room next door. The room was specially designed with padded walls for soundproofing, a sloping concrete floor with a drain and hose, and a log wall for the prisoners to stand against. Blokhin would stand waiting behind the door in his executioner garb: a leather butcher's apron, leather hat, and shoulder-length leather gloves. Then, without a hearing, the reading of a sentence or any other formalities, each prisoner was brought in and restrained by guards while Blokhin shot him once in the base of the skull with a German Walther Model 2 .25 ACP pistol. While technically not a part of the Great Purge, I'm sure it would make for a great pop-up event. Perhaps it could lead to a diminished manpower pool for a future liberated Poland - and if your spies are skillful enough, you can put the blame on Nazi Germany and increase their belligerence. I also wonder how Paradox will model Operation Lentil. Maybe if you don't go through with the deportations, Chechnya will declare independence as a German puppet. If you are being selective in your treatment of genocide because of legal issues, that is perfectly valid and you should just say so. But to treat this particular set of crimes against humanity, and these crimes only, as sort of a joke that does not deserve to be treated with gravitas, even outright stating that Stalin had ample justification to do the things that he did, still does not sit right with me. That's all. I will still buy the game and probably enjoy it, this is just my personal reaction to the previous dev diary and admittedly a point of criticism that not everyone seems to agree with..
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Aug 21, 2015 17:10
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Gort posted:In ten years time, you won't recognise Berlin. e: They could be like the canals in EU4, a stupid waste of resources. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 17:10
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Don't worry, in Stellaris we'll be able to play Space Nazi Woodlice and eradicate Space Jew Seagulls. Has there been any word yet how big the galaxy could be at its largest in Stellaris? I want a huge galaxy, with a slow initial exploration phase
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Aug 21, 2015 17:28
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Sad King Billy posted:Don't worry, in Stellaris we'll be able to play Space Nazi Woodlice and eradicate Space Jew Seagulls.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:34
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I think podcat is just a holocaust denier
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Aug 21, 2015 17:37
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I check the thread hoping for some news on space game and instead I'm not sure I have the ability to feel human anymore
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Aug 21, 2015 17:40
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