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Mr. Wookums posted:You are confusing general deterrence with specific deterrence. Tell me why AR brought up specific deterrence.  You might be interested in this post http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3701648&userid=124707&perpage=40&pagenumber=13#post449154254 Starshark fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 16:01
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What are you trying to get at? Having longer jail terms for murder actually increases murder rate? What AR stated is true and isn't contradictory to any of your claims of general deterrence regardless of whether or not I feel your correlation is hosed.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:10
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Arn't a pretty big chunk of murders basically heat of the moment type things? I don't think harsh sentencing is going to make those go away.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:17
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That's only because we aren't jailing enough people. For example, if we jailed 100% of the people in prisons run by robots, the murder rate would be zero, now there's specific deterrence for you, suck it Norway.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:22
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Mr. Wookums posted:What are you trying to get at? Having longer jail terms for murder actually increases murder rate? What AR stated is true and isn't contradictory to any of your claims of general deterrence regardless of whether or not I feel your correlation is hosed. Well in that case I did get the two terms mixed up, I see where you're coming from. But how necessary is specific deterrence? I don't have time to analyse murder in various countries but I can say anecdotally it's rare in Australia for someone released on a murder charge to murder again. Do we know if people locked up for life would definitely kill had they been allowed to get out?
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Aug 21, 2015 16:23
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Depends largely on the type of murder. Remember, I deal primarily in gang homicide. In that context specific deterrence is absolutely a valid consideration. Same with sexual abuse of minors.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:38
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Starshark posted:Well in that case I did get the two terms mixed up, I see where you're coming from. But how necessary is specific deterrence? I don't have time to analyse murder in various countries but I can say anecdotally it's rare in Australia for someone released on a murder charge to murder again. Do we know if people locked up for life would definitely kill had they been allowed to get out? You want page 21 and 22. Can't prove a negative regarding people locked up for life, but hopefully those are murder 1s with previous violent convictions which lean towards recidivism involving some type of violence.
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Aug 21, 2015 16:52
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VitalSigns posted:We would have a 0% recidivism rate if we instituted the death penalty for every crime, makes you think Start with tailgating and speeding and I'm on board. E: seeing as though we already started in Texas with unsignaled lane changes.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:04
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FAUXTON posted:Start with tailgating and speeding and I'm on board. Modest speeding is okay since most roads have needlessly low speed limits, but slamming down on the stupid poo poo that causes accidents like tailgating and unsignaled turns would be unironically good. It's not like following someone another car length closer even gets you anywhere.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:08
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:My fault, was working from memory - its violent crime rate is one of the highest in the US (somebody's doing the raping), but the murder rate is in the middle of the pack. Sweden actually has double the rape rate as the US the last time I checked, which was surprising.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:10
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computer parts posted:Sweden actually has double the rape rate as the US the last time I checked, which was surprising. How much of that is due to different reporting? About 80% of sexual assaults in the US are estimated to go unreported, predominately due to our society's nasty tendency to blame the victim for being assaulted. Even among those, only 2% of rapists actually see a felony conviction.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:26
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Starshark posted:So if it works so well we should be seeing lower murder rates, yeah? We are, dramatically, many criminologists believe as a direct result of specific deterrence from mass incarceration. Many others claim that the massive drop in crime rates occurred for other reasons though and there's way, way too many confounding variables to make a strong statement in either direction so it tends to falls along political lines.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:51
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Jarmak posted:We are, dramatically, many criminologists believe as a direct result of specific deterrence from mass incarceration. Many others claim that the massive drop in crime rates occurred for other reasons though and there's way, way too many confounding variables to make a strong statement in either direction so it tends to falls along political lines. Sources?
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Aug 21, 2015 17:58
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chitoryu12 posted:Sources? Why would I source something I admit is unprovable? do you want me to source both sides of the arguement? Do you want me to spend time throwing up a bunch of sources I know aren't conclusive so you can knock them down after I already admitted they're not conclusive? Also could you please source your statement that Sweden has a much better report rate then the US and that's the reason for the higher number of rapes? Cause I'm pretty sure that you're just making that the gently caress up, I'm having trouble finding one for Sweden specifically but everything I see puts the nordic countries as even or worse at reporting then the US. This Amensty International paper puts the unreported rate in Finland at 90%-95% https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/ACT77/001/2010/en/ Jarmak fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 18:08
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Jarmak posted:Why would I source something I admit is unprovable? do you want me to source both sides of the arguement? Do you want me to spend time throwing up a bunch of sources I no aren't conclusive so you can knock them down after I already admitted they're not conclusive? Yeah, it is probably not reporting rate, as Nordic countries also have their own versions of rape culture. It is more to do with classification and reporting techniques, since very few countries use identical methods.
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Aug 21, 2015 18:10
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archangelwar posted:It is more to do with classification and reporting techniques, since very few countries use identical methods. Homicide is about the only comparable statistics for this reason, and even that has some nuances between countries.
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Aug 21, 2015 19:43
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So the guy who was shot in St. Louis? He was shot in the back. And the response of STL police? A "heightened state of alert," extending shifts and cancelling leave requests. That's really going to cut down on the mistakes.
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Aug 22, 2015 02:27
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This week, six police officers have been charged with murder. http://usuncut.com/news/six-indictments-of-killer-cops-this-week-proves-blacklivesmatter-is-working/
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Aug 22, 2015 03:01
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VitalSigns posted:That's only because we aren't jailing enough people. And if 100% of people were robots, assault would be replaced with property damage! 
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Aug 22, 2015 13:48
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ActusRhesus posted:You are confusing general deterrence with specific deterrence. Long jail terms absolutely have a specific deterrent effect. That person is unable to continue his criminal conduct while he is incarcerated. The longer he is incarcerated for, the longer he is unable to recidivate. I think specific/general deterrence is it's own distinct thing (which at times is questionable with some mandatory minimum sentences) compared to the requirement to separate violent offenders from the rest of society. We have it codified in  :quote:718. PURPOSE — The fundamental purpose of sentencing is to contribute, along with crime prevention initiatives, to respect for the law and the maintenance of a just, peaceful and safe society by imposing just sanctions that have one or more of the following objectives: Zarkov Cortez fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Aug 23, 2015 |
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Aug 23, 2015 15:54
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Hopefully I'll have another dose of rage tomorrow. But here is today's. Mentally Unstable, Road-Raging Police Officer, Has A History of Mental Instability http://www.copscaughtontape.com/headline/mentally-unstable-road-raging-police-officer-has-a-history-of-mental-instability/ Cleveland officer resigns over "unintentional" text message http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/29857261/cleveland-officer-resigns-over-unintentional-text-message Cop Busted on Hidden Camera Extorting Driver: “Buy These or I Take Your Car." http://usuncut.com/news/cop-busted-on-hidden-camera-extorting-driver-buy-these-or-i-take-your-car/ Just a few bad apples.
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Aug 23, 2015 21:54
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Sorry for the double post, but. Worcester, MA — Marianne Diaz and her children were asleep during the pre-dawn hours of August 18 when a gang of heavily armed militarized men kicked in the door to their apartment and began terrorizing this family. Diaz was woken up by the sound of multiple doors being kicked in. The next thing she knew, she was naked and on her knees, looking down the barrels of several AR-15 rifles. “Stop f**king crying and take care of your f**king kids,” she quoted one officer as saying. According to Diaz, the militarized gang would keep her in this state of terror, completely nude, for ten minutes. With her children crying at the sight of their mother being held hostage by men in black body armor, the gang proceeded to tear apart their house. This heavily militarized invasion of an innocent family’s home was because incompetent police had raided the wrong house. During the assault and terrorization, dispatch records show that officers called for a female officer to come to the scene. When the female officer arrived, Diaz, who was completely naked, was then patted down by the female officer and told to spread her legs to be searched. Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/stop-fking-crying-swat-raids-wrong-home-holds-naked-mom-gunpoint-front-children/#OhWkfsBlBZOTbsAk.99 edit : The fact that they were at the wrong house is only part of their incompetent and brutal blunder, however. These inept barbarians actually arrested Jackson 2 weeks prior to the raid!
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Aug 23, 2015 21:55
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http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/08/24/3694725/ferguson-municipal-court-reforms/ Ferguson’s new municipal court judge, Judge Donald McCullin, issued an order Monday to withdraw all arrest warrants issued before the end of last year. The order may affect thousands of people in Ferguson who have racked up exorbitant debt for traffic violations or other minor offenses. McCullin also reinstated all driver’s licenses suspended solely because the driver failed to appear in court or pay a fine. Suspended license penalties tend to trap poor people into cycles of debt, as they have little choice but to continue driving to work and risk being arrested for driving with a suspended license. The defendants whose warrants have been withdrawn will be given new court dates. Pretrial release conditions will also change, the judge said. Rather than jail people, the court will come up with alternative payment plans, commute fines for people who can’t afford them, or require community service. “These changes should continue the process of restoring confidence in the Court, alleviating fears of the consequences of appearing in Court, and giving many residents a fresh start,” said McCullin. “Many individuals whose license has been suspended will be able to obtain them and take advantage of the benefits of being able to drive. Moreover, defendants will not be disadvantaged in being afforded pre-trial release because of the inability to make bond.”
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Aug 25, 2015 00:29
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Vahakyla posted:http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/08/24/3694725/ferguson-municipal-court-reforms/ Well, holy poo poo.
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Aug 25, 2015 00:42
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Public outrage and riots are useless. 
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Aug 25, 2015 00:44
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I'm not used to hearing good news so I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
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Aug 25, 2015 00:56
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But...but a store got looted, therefore all protesters are only making things worse for themselves and their neighborhood 
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Aug 25, 2015 01:00
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That sounds like great news. 
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Aug 25, 2015 01:39
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Grey Fox posted:I'm not used to hearing good news so I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. The other shoe is that the same pieces of poo poo who brought that town to its nadir through their abuses of power are probably furiously poring over everything that municipal judge has ever said, done, written, drawn, or opined, to find something to sue him over.
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Aug 25, 2015 05:00
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So some members of BLM have launched a policy plan to deal with policing in this country. http://www.joincampaignzero.org/#vision
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Aug 25, 2015 05:35
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Pohl posted:Public outrage and riots are useless. Spreading awareness about outrageous behavior is useless. What we need to do here is having long, pedantic discussions about how the only legally feasible solutions are the status quo.
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Aug 25, 2015 10:02
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blackguy32 posted:So some members of BLM have launched a policy plan to deal with policing in this country. I'm too tired to deal with that right now, but I will look into it tomorrow. Thanks.
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Aug 25, 2015 10:56
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VitalSigns posted:But...but a store got looted, therefore all protesters are only making things worse for themselves and their neighborhood The entire poor and working class just needs to stand up and declare that we want ice cream or something. It would be amazing.
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Aug 25, 2015 11:04
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Pictured: an effective petition for judicial reform
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Aug 25, 2015 16:47
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SedanChair posted:Pictured: an effective petition for judicial reform The effect being judicial reform, so yes? Effectiveness doesn't really cover the ethics or morals of activism.
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Aug 25, 2015 19:47
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FAUXTON posted:The effect being judicial reform, so yes? Effectiveness doesn't really cover the ethics or morals of activism. I think he concurs with you that, threatening racist white institutions with violence, works to get what you deserve. Not WANT, Deserve, as Americans. gently caress the FPD.
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Aug 25, 2015 20:11
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I'm pretty sure the federal probe into the Ferguson PD that's been driving this was announced before the grand jury finished deliberations in the Darren Wilson case, so it's hard to see how all the stunts after that point contributed.
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Aug 25, 2015 20:31
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A Philadelphia officer has been placed on desk duty after literally being caught on camera demanding a bribe.quote:A Philadelphia patrolman who appears to be pressuring a driver to support a police fundraiser or have his car towed in a video released last week has been placed on desk duty, police said. Officer Matthew Zagursky embarrassed the police department and may have committed a crime, Commissioner Charles Ramsey said. On the video, the officer asks: "You and your friend got any money to buy these thrill show tickets? Either you buy these or I take your car. 'Cause it's unregistered. Ten bucks each, man." "Yeah, he may have committed a crime. I dunno, is bribery illegal in Pennsylvania yet?"
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Aug 25, 2015 20:35
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chitoryu12 posted:A Philadelphia officer has been placed on desk duty after literally being caught on camera demanding a bribe. When I read the words "Philadelphia cop," that's exactly the guy I imagine.
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Aug 25, 2015 20:44
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm pretty sure the federal probe into the Ferguson PD that's been driving this was announced before the grand jury finished deliberations in the Darren Wilson case, so it's hard to see how all the stunts after that point contributed. It was launched two days after the shooting but there were protests the day after. Also the grand jury announcement was last November and the results of the probe weren't released till March, so actions after the grand jury announcement could still have a large impact.
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Aug 25, 2015 21:03
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