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bobkatt013 posted:You should read the latest run as he has changed from being an Villain to being closer to Wolverine. He is going to be joining the Avengers and has become good friends with Cap. I know continuity isn't always something to get worked up over but that sounds ridiculous. Deadpool is a mass murdering psychopath up there with the likes of The Punisher. I've not read Wolverine for a while but most of his mass murdering was justifiable in some way (like in kill or be killed sorts of ways). Deadpool murdered people for profit, in his way or if they just pissed him off (just go back a year or two and he blew some some dude's head off because he liked the star wars prequels). Is he really joining the Avengers? mind the walrus posted:Deadpool has been on "team antihero" since Gail Simone's run--not that she did anything specifically that I can recall, just that he hasn't been a sincere villain for any prolonged capacity since then. Pretty sure he's been doing some nasty poo poo since then (see above). Also, it's not really about being a sincere villain, but more that he's just a Bad Guy. I'm all for growth and that but there's growth (like that seen in Joe Kelly's run) and then there's shoehorning him into everything because he's the "superhero for Trolls".
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Aug 22, 2015 22:27
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I should clarify. I didn't say he deserved to be on the anti-hero list, just that that's where he's been placed because of marketability/profitability.
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Aug 22, 2015 22:32
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Kin posted:I know continuity isn't always something to get worked up over but that sounds ridiculous. Deadpool is a mass murdering psychopath up there with the likes of The Punisher. I've not read Wolverine for a while but most of his mass murdering was justifiable in some way (like in kill or be killed sorts of ways). Deadpool murdered people for profit, in his way or if they just pissed him off (just go back a year or two and he blew some some dude's head off because he liked the star wars prequels). Those were members of AIM. He is not only joining he is funding.
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Aug 22, 2015 22:32
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mind the walrus posted:I should clarify. I didn't say he deserved to be on the anti-hero list, just that that's where he's been placed because of marketability/profitability. Yeah, i totally get you. It just bugs me because i think part of what made him so popular in the first place (after the Deathstroke ripoff period) was the original run where his character was broken and the comedy was clearly just a coping mechanism. bobkatt013 posted:Those were members of AIM. I don't think it matters who they were.
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Aug 22, 2015 22:36
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mind the walrus posted:I can't think of any heroes who stayed villains beyond Ultimate Reed Richards because hack writers love pumping the redemption arc and even if they don't there's always a pet fanbase who will stomp and complain until they get their way (hi Hal Jordan fans!). Some future writer will probably try and do an Ultimate Reed redemption arc at some point.
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Aug 22, 2015 22:37
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Kin posted:Yeah, i totally get you. It just bugs me because i think part of what made him so popular in the first place (after the Deathstroke ripoff period) was the original run where his character was broken and the comedy was clearly just a coping mechanism. I don't think he was that popular at all during Joe Kelly's run. I was around during the Gail Simone and Cable/Deadpool days and he was very firmly an underground character most geeks I know didn't care much about, including here on BSS. It wasn't until about 2009-11 that I started to hear people talking about him without prompting and he became genuinely popular, coincidentally around the time "meme" humor hit the "internet mainstream" and Deadpool's sensibilities were a natural fit. Starsnostars posted:Some future writer will probably try and do an Ultimate Reed redemption arc at some point. True, that is the thing with soaps-- all storylines get done eventually. One does have to wonder if it will stick, but then again a decent writer (and/or a very determined editorial mandate) can reverse anything.
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Aug 22, 2015 22:43
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Deadpool didn't really become breakout popular until Daniel Way's run unfortunately. Most of the rehabilitation to his character was done by Nicieza in Cable/Deadpool and was largely forgotten by Way. Duggan and Posehn have picked up the thread from Nicieza and expanded on it by giving Wade a family, friends, colleagues, and even superhero buddies like Cap. That's why their run is probably the best run of the character now because of how well they've fleshed him out.
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Aug 22, 2015 22:55
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Kin posted:Yeah, i totally get you. It just bugs me because i think part of what made him so popular in the first place (after the Deathstroke ripoff period) was the original run where his character was broken and the comedy was clearly just a coping mechanism. Which Remender and Duggan remembered. In X-Force and the recent run he's very clearly a guy who knows how messed up his life has been, and is doing his best to limit the damage now, despite being too hosed up to fully know how. And the post Secret Wars status quo is apparently going to be Deadpool being a super-famous and popular hero with tons of money from merch and movie deals and such.
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Aug 22, 2015 22:57
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X-O posted:Deadpool didn't really become breakout popular until Daniel Way's run unfortunately. Yeah, sadly, turning the character into a one-note joke made him much more meme-able on terrible websites that already loved him for hitting a girl that one time.
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Aug 22, 2015 23:17
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Flesh Forge posted:On a similar note, who are some of the established heroes that became villains and stayed that way? Ultimate Reed Richards/The Maker is a pretty great one, the idea of Evil Reed Richards doing all this scary physical poo poo really weirds me out: This is legitimately gross but also a way better depiction of the body horror aspect of the F4 powers than I've seen probably ever, at compared to 616 stuff. Ultimate F4 was always dropping hints that Reed's powers had hosed him up as much as Ben (the fact that he doesn't need to eat or sleep, the capability to "stretch" his brain to increase his intellect, etc), so I hope some of that makes it's way into main continuity post-Secret Wars. Also, does Ultimate Reed Richards/The Maker know about the Council of Reeds?
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Aug 22, 2015 23:37
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X-O posted:Deadpool didn't really become breakout popular until Daniel Way's run unfortunately. Way's run was pretty good in that first year, but I wouldn't say Deadpool became popular because of him. It was more of a sum of the internet backlash of how he was in the Wolverine movie mixed with Marvel finally deciding to go full throttle on him for the first time. It really says something that over the course of Cable/Deadpool, there was never a crossover into another book outside of tie-ins to stories that otherwise didn't mention Deadpool.
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Aug 22, 2015 23:43
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Rap Record Hoarder posted:Also, does Ultimate Reed Richards/The Maker know about the Council of Reeds? It'd be really dark and funny if this got brought up and the Council said something to the effect of "oh yeah we know about him. He's not loving up his universe nearly as much as he thinks he is and is just a kid throwing a temper-tantrum, so we mostly keep ourselves off his radar."
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Aug 22, 2015 23:45
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I wanted to like Planetary's creepy Reed but their twist on his powers didn't leave an impact on me. He stretches.... Into your mind!
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Aug 22, 2015 23:47
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Yeah the Planetary version of Reed was lame as gently caress. Most of the last quarter of Planetary was pretty lame. It's hard for me to say though because I read those issues as they came out and the delays deflated the ever-loving gently caress out of the back half of that series anyway. It's depressing how it took seven years to finish a series that was supposed to wrap up before the year 2000.
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Aug 22, 2015 23:51
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Gavok posted:Way's run was pretty good in that first year, but I wouldn't say Deadpool became popular because of him. It was more of a sum of the internet backlash of how he was in the Wolverine movie mixed with Marvel finally deciding to go full throttle on him for the first time. It's true, for the longest time, they seemed determined to contain him to his own title, but then once Way got a hold of him he was in EVERYTHING and got 3 other books, and was on a bunch of variant covers. I don't know if it was a situation where a higher-up changed, or if Way was pushing for the character, or what, but it was a really noticeable shift.
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Aug 23, 2015 00:00
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mind the walrus posted:Yeah the Planetary version of Reed was lame as gently caress. Most of the last quarter of Planetary was pretty lame. It's hard for me to say though because I read those issues as they came out and the delays deflated the ever-loving gently caress out of the back half of that series anyway. It's depressing how it took seven years to finish a series that was supposed to wrap up before the year 2000. I read it all over the course of a day and I thought it was pretty cool. Lurdiak posted:It's true, for the longest time, they seemed determined to contain him to his own title, but then once Way got a hold of him he was in EVERYTHING and got 3 other books, and was on a bunch of variant covers. I don't know if it was a situation where a higher-up changed, or if Way was pushing for the character, or what, but it was a really noticeable shift. To be honest I had thought Deadpool had been way more popular since before then. I guess I came in right about that time though so I didn't have anything to compare it to.
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Aug 23, 2015 00:00
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Senor Candle posted:I read it all over the course of a day and I thought it was pretty cool. Good for you. Have a cookie. I reread it a few years after the series completed and in the back quarter there is a noticeable shift as the imagery becomes less imaginative and Ellis/Cassidy rush to a conclusion. quote:To be honest I had thought Deadpool had been way more popular since before then. I guess I came in right about that time though so I didn't have anything to compare it to. Nah before Way Deadpool was that character that comics guys talked up but no one gave a gently caress because they're comics guys lol wtf do they know about cool? Then Way and "meme humor" became popular, and Deadpool was the natural fit and suddenly all those old panels of the Rhino-keychain and kicking Captain America in the junk and such were now hipster cachet.
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Aug 23, 2015 00:08
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Senor Candle posted:To be honest I had thought Deadpool had been way more popular since before then. I guess I came in right about that time though so I didn't have anything to compare it to. It was popular enough to have it's own ~60 issue run. That's like 5 years. Presumably that's a good sign for a comic that isn't something like Spiderman/Wolverine no?
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Aug 23, 2015 01:11
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mind the walrus posted:Good for you. Have a cookie. I reread it a few years after the series completed and in the back quarter there is a noticeable shift as the imagery becomes less imaginative and Ellis/Cassidy rush to a conclusion. It was a nice idea, but they basically did absolutely nothing with it. If they weren't obviously trying to tie up all their loose ends they probably could have done something cool with it, but, well... Still, I do love that last issue. Unlucky7 fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Aug 23, 2015 |
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Aug 23, 2015 01:20
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Having Snow defeat the most powerful members of the Four before they can do anything by using what was essentially an archaeological ambush seemed to me like the perfect way to show Snow's better understanding of his role as a rescuer of secrets, as well as the perfect comeuppance for Randall "I know everything" Downling. He took out the other two from ambush as well. Doing it with some kind of fight scene would have been a detriment to the final arc of the book (that I would say starts with #21, "Death Machine Telemetry", probably the best individual issue in the series), which was all about Snow's understanding of his place in the world's systems.
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Aug 23, 2015 02:05
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Heresiarch posted:Having Snow defeat the most powerful members of the Four before they can do anything by using what was essentially an archaeological ambush seemed to me like the perfect way to show Snow's better understanding of his role as a rescuer of secrets, as well as the perfect comeuppance for Randall "I know everything" Downling. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?  I did it sixty-five million years ago.
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Aug 23, 2015 02:18
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Heresiarch posted:Having Snow defeat the most powerful members of the Four before they can do anything by using what was essentially an archaeological ambush seemed to me like the perfect way to show Snow's better understanding of his role as a rescuer of secrets, as well as the perfect comeuppance for Randall "I know everything" Downling. He took out the other two from ambush as well. Doing it with some kind of fight scene would have been a detriment to the final arc of the book (that I would say starts with #21, "Death Machine Telemetry", probably the best individual issue in the series), which was all about Snow's understanding of his place in the world's systems. Agreed completely on everything but #21, but the book did such an excellent job of showing how dangerous every other member of the Four could be, so having Dowling's entire menace exist in vague and stupid-sounding informed asides was weaksauce as poo poo.
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Aug 23, 2015 05:50
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mind the walrus posted:Agreed completely on everything but #21, but the book did such an excellent job of showing how dangerous every other member of the Four could be, so having Dowling's entire menace exist in vague and stupid-sounding informed asides was weaksauce as poo poo. Dowling's powers of control were made to sound terrifying at the end of the previous issue (and are never explained previously), and when faced with that, Snow just punks him straight up by setting something free. Hell, later in the issue the idea is stated explicitly:  Weaksauce? Yeah, Dowling was weak. He was a small man who was willing to sell out the world to make himself powerful. That was kind of the point. Also, from a storytelling standpoint, mind control is really boring to actually watch. What you get are characters using the same abilities they've always had, just against each other. How many times has this been done to death already? (Superman, I'm looking at you here.) I'm glad we didn't have to waste any space on that, since it's much more interesting as a threat than to see actually used.
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Aug 23, 2015 06:24
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None of that changes the fact that we're being told that someone with elastic powers has the power of mind control. How the hell does that really work, especially visually? Not showing that at all was what was weak, not the thematic structure which was perfectly fine.
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Aug 23, 2015 06:26
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mind the walrus posted:None of that changes the fact that we're being told that someone with elastic powers has the power of mind control. How the hell does that really work, especially visually? Not showing that at all was what was weak, not the thematic structure which was perfectly fine. Dowling's mind was "elastic". As long as you were near him, you were him, and you wouldn't even know it. He could ransack the memories of anyone near him, and because he was a small minded and greedy brute he threw everything into vault except the weapons. He used those to kill people who said no or just annoyed him. He tried to use his power on Elijah, which made the panels all red and swirly and zoom in on his eyes, but he was dead from the moment he got to their meeting without an instantaneous escape (Elijah had a teleporter set up.)
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Aug 23, 2015 06:35
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mind the walrus posted:None of that changes the fact that we're being told that someone with elastic powers has the power of mind control. How the hell does that really work, especially visually? Not showing that at all was what was weak, not the thematic structure which was perfectly fine. It wouldn't work visually, that's probably the reason we didn't see it. Snow even taunts Dowling by pointing out that he can't kill and has had to rely on a (more visually interesting) team to do all the dirty work for him. That scary Dowling is a joke in person is the whole point of the issue. Is that a letdown? I personally don't think so but clearly YMMV. Not every gun has to be fired regardless of what Chekhov might tell you, sometimes it not getting fired is just as important.
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Aug 23, 2015 06:43
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I'm not complaining about him as he is written and taken out in the story, just in how he falls short as an alternate Mr Fantastic. Making him a mind control guy is a stre
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Aug 23, 2015 06:48
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Chinaman7000 posted:I'm not complaining about him as he is written and taken out in the story, just in how he falls short as an alternate Mr Fantastic. Making him a mind control guy is a stre Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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Aug 23, 2015 06:52
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I haven't read anything about evil mind-controlling Mr Fantastic but to me it sounds like his power works the same way as early Magneto's power to control others through his MAGNETIC PERSONALITY.
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Aug 23, 2015 08:52
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wiegieman posted:Dowling's mind was "elastic". As long as you were near him, you were him, and you wouldn't even know it. He could ransack the memories of anyone near him, and because he was a small minded and greedy brute he threw everything into vault except the weapons. He used those to kill people who said no or just annoyed him. He tried to use his power on Elijah, which made the panels all red and swirly and zoom in on his eyes, but he was dead from the moment he got to their meeting without an instantaneous escape (Elijah had a teleporter set up.) I didn't mind the resolution, but even a small scene showcasing how Dowling operated instead of constantly telling over showing would have been nice. Literally every single other member of the 4 got at least one scene to showcase what they did and how they were similar/different from the Fantastic Four we know, and Dowling didn't. Whether or not he was easy to defeat is entirely beside my argument. It's a classic example of "show, don't tell." Heresiarch posted:It wouldn't work visually, that's probably the reason we didn't see it. Snow even taunts Dowling by pointing out that he can't kill and has had to rely on a (more visually interesting) team to do all the dirty work for him. I think at this point you're doubling down, but YMMV. Really it feels like you're talking past my argument because it's more important to save face than it is to acknowledge that yes, my argument has a point the same way yours does--and I apologize if I haven't properly acknowledged the validity of your argument. That said my argument isn't about a Chekov's gun because I don't give a gently caress if Dowling used his powers on Snow or not. I wanted to see how the Four interacted with him if his powers are close-proximity mind control and they're evidently aware of and ok with this state of affairs. Said powers don't need to be flashy like a punch or a blast of fire because correct composition and coloring--of which Cassidy is a master--could have easily set the tone for what was going on and made the scene effective. The lack of proper demonstration of what Dowling was rumored to be able to do leaves a frustrating gap in setting the scene in a series known for excellent scene-setting. Grendels Dad posted:I haven't read anything about evil mind-controlling Mr Fantastic but to me it sounds like his power works the same way as early Magneto's power to control others through his MAGNETIC PERSONALITY. I would have been down with this. And in the interest of contributing to this thread here's a page from Planetary that feels a bit cosmically fitting: 
mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Aug 23, 2015 |
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Aug 23, 2015 09:04
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mind the walrus posted:I think at this point you're doubling down, but YMMV. Really it feels like you're talking past my argument because it's more important to save face than it is to acknowledge that yes, my argument has a point the same way yours does--and I apologize if I haven't properly acknowledged the validity of your argument. Once the argument has devolved into accusations about a poster's motivations then all hope is lost and I might as well just stop now.
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Aug 23, 2015 09:30
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I extend an olive branch and you immediately stick your nose up in the air like a pompous little poo poo? Christ, what an rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 23, 2015 09:33
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scratch that here is a nice visual metaphor for "shut the gently caress up" in the form of spider man kicking reed richards in his goddamn throat
Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Aug 23, 2015 |
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Aug 23, 2015 10:18
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Here's Uncle Ben chopping off Flash Thompson's balls after hearing him call Peter a "pipsqueak" From What If Spider-man's Uncle Ben Had Lived?
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Aug 23, 2015 10:40
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So, exactly how many not-fantastic-fours have there been so far. It seems like a trope I've run into more than once in my reading. One of the most famous examples being of course the Superman story that eventually spawned Hank Henshaw.
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Aug 23, 2015 15:47
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mind the walrus posted:I extend an olive branch and you immediately stick your nose up in the air like a pompous little poo poo? Christ, what an rear end in a top hat. You are an extremely arrogant turd.
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Aug 23, 2015 15:53
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Heresiarch posted:Having Snow defeat the most powerful members of the Four before they can do anything by using what was essentially an archaeological ambush seemed to me like the perfect way to show Snow's better understanding of his role as a rescuer of secrets, as well as the perfect comeuppance for Randall "I know everything" Downling. He took out the other two from ambush as well. Thematically it worked very well, and I loved that Snow defeated Mr Fantastic by outsmarting him. But the fact that he killed two people by making them fall to their deaths when they had just been shown to be wearing antigravity boots has always bugged the hell out of me. mind the walrus posted:I extend an olive branch and you immediately stick your nose up in the air like a pompous little poo poo? Christ, what an rear end in a top hat. Is there something wrong with your brain?
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Aug 23, 2015 16:13
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Lurdiak posted:Here's Uncle Ben chopping off Flash Thompson's balls after hearing him call Peter a "pipsqueak" "there's a lot less to you" Dammmmn Uncle Ben 
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Aug 23, 2015 17:02
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TwoPair posted:"there's a lot less to you" Yeah, Peter has two more legs!
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Aug 23, 2015 17:10
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Choco1980 posted:So, exactly how many not-fantastic-fours have there been so far. It seems like a trope I've run into more than once in my reading. One of the most famous examples being of course the Superman story that eventually spawned Hank Henshaw. Pixar's The Incredibles.
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