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DJ Dizzy posted:How do I make my players HATE monsters but also instill into them moral dilemma? If they're mages, werewolves or other supernaturals capable of conventional family bonds, work out those relationships so the player's investigation can discover them. Especially after they've killed a few without knowing much more about them than 'witches!' or 'werewolves!'. e: Or less conventional bonds. Say they destroy a vampire, raid its lair, and find the vampire's ghoulfriend withering away before their eyes. 1994 Toyota Celica fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 18:13
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Reap the Whirlwind starts off with the PCs executing the Prince and then goes off the deep end of vampire politics. It was a loving terrible choice for a Free RPG Day adventure, since it assumes players have a ton of setting knowledge. Which is one thing "played this once fifteen years ago" players don't come with. It was also where a lot of nWoD2.0 mechanics were debuted! At one point the adventure's narrative just backs off and gives you like thirty NPCs and expects you to sort it out.
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Aug 21, 2015 18:36
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So I played a lot of old WoD vampire and I'm always curious about the new editions. Someone at my FLGS was trying to tell me about the 'new new' editions and just confused me. It seems like it's pretty hard to find a print copy of the 2nd ed. rules for Vampire (the Drivethru RPG link in the OP seems like the only source). New WoD vampire (1st edition?) is just $10 used on Amazon. Is the 2nd edition update worth it?
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Aug 22, 2015 02:37
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You are correct - you can't find a print version because White Wolf no longer makes print, just Print On Demand. However, Vampire: the Requiem 2e is, IMO, an improvement on 1e. Not everyone agrees, but I really appreciate the introduction of Conditions and most of the 2e changes.
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Aug 22, 2015 02:39
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Good to know about that print on demand thing. Guess I should do more research about the two editions.
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Aug 22, 2015 02:50
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moths posted:Reap the Whirlwind starts off with the PCs executing the Prince and then goes off the deep end of vampire politics. I agree that the way it is presented works rather poorly for less experienced players, but it also turned out absolutely amazing when I had two inexperienced with Vampire players in it who decided to play two misfit Nosferatu thugs who got lucky working for the Judex, and decided to actually take the Prince at his word and let him live, resulting in action movie escalation as the whole city turned on them and they had to fight their way back to the top, in a 1980's action movie style, ending with an endless bloody firefight in Elysium. It was not the game I intended to run, but I'm extremely glad it happened, because it was a helluva swerve from the scenario as presented but by changing the reason for everything going to chaos from "the Prince is dead" to "the Prince calls a blood hunt and the players implicate their patron power player" worked surprisingly well.
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Aug 22, 2015 06:02
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Tricky Dick Nixon posted:It was not the game I intended to run, but I'm extremely glad it happened This applies to almost all my game running stories.
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Aug 23, 2015 03:41
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I've been watching the Neil Degrasse Tyson version of Cosmos (watch it, it'S great) over the last few days, and they helped me realize something that always bugged me abotut he old World of Darkness: it's way too small. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34Q Ultimately, in the old WoD, the world was created by God and Earth is the center of the universe and humanity is special. And while there are a lot of dark things in there, that central cocneit ultimately makes it a very hopeful one. We matter, what we do matter and we are the center of the universe. There's an arrogance in there that rally rubs me the wrong way, and it also doesn't help the horror tone that the setting wants to establish. Intentionally or not, by stepping away from making grand cosmological statements about the nature of the universe in the new WoD, WW has set up a much colder universe, one were Earth is a tiny speck of dust in a universe of infinite terrors and wonders. While they've shown no interest in doing anything about horror on the interstellar scale, the simpel fact that Earth is not the center of the nWoD removes that annoying arrogance that was present in the old one. I'm not sure how to explain my feelings in more detail, but I think it's a very important distinction between the two WoDs, and their very different atmospheres and tones.
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Aug 24, 2015 04:30
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Even before the God Machine Chronicles update, I feel nWoD did have some of those elements within it. Not to the extent of oWoD, but nWoD focuses on Earth and the supernatural so I believe it came up as a consequence from time to time.
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Aug 24, 2015 04:42
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I feel like the fact that nothing is ever clearly exposed in the nWoD, all the big setting secrets and cosmological truth are vague and seen through the lens of the gameline's protagonists and easily modified/interpreted, means that it never quite gets there. All the otherworlds and big spirits can be easily seen as local in nature, simply the supernatural bisophere of Earth. The alien spirits from far away planets from Forsaken kind of points to that. Edit: Also, of course, not all writers are the same, on the same page or this leads to some degree of contradictions in most rpg gamelines. All writers bring in their own biases, consciously or not. I feel like the larger trends are there though.
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Aug 24, 2015 04:46
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MonsieurChoc posted:I feel like the fact that nothing is ever clearly exposed in the nWoD, all the big setting secrets and cosmological truth are vague and seen through the lens of the gameline's protagonists and easily modified/interpreted, means that it never quite gets there. All the otherworlds and big spirits can be easily seen as local in nature, simply the supernatural bisophere of Earth. The alien spirits from far away planets from Forsaken kind of points to that. In addition, Idigam can call down alien spirits explicitly from the void between stars, which is about as strong a statement you can make that Weird poo poo exists far outside of the human realm of experience. Alien life presumably has its own alien spirits, the Hedge has been mentioned in stuff like Mirrors to extend ANYWHERE there is a door or a reflection (including the ISS). Humanity may be unique in the sense that it can have souls, Awaken, has all sorts of unique expressions of supernatural power, and the like, but the top-level poo poo in most of the lines is incredibly alien and impersonal. Even the Supernal Realms has archmages more or less colonizing it, rather than owning it. If you believe the Exarchs were human mages, they moved in and took over as imperial lords of an alien heaven. If they're not, then it's reinforced even harder that humanity is not the top dog, cosmically. Putting them aside, you have Arcadia, the Lower Depths, the Outer Spheres, and the Deep Shadow to consider as well, as well as God knows what other weird-rear end things that haven't and wont ever be written about. The only real anthropocentric divisions of reality I can think of are the Astral (basically the communal oversoul of mankind when you get deep enough), the Underworld (a hosed up busted afterlife based around a quirk of humanity), and the Inferno (part of the Lower Depths that expresses itself through human vices and self-loathing.) You might argue that Arcadia's based on human narrative and logic, as well, but writ so large as to become alien once more.
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Aug 24, 2015 04:58
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MonsieurChoc posted:Ultimately, in the old WoD, the world was created by God and Earth is the center of the universe and humanity is special. And while there are a lot of dark things in there, that central cocneit ultimately makes it a very hopeful one. We matter, what we do matter and we are the center of the universe. There's an arrogance in there that rally rubs me the wrong way, and it also doesn't help the horror tone that the setting wants to establish. That's an interesting idea. Would you consider, say, Unknown Armies to be inappropriately arrogant or hopeful because of this?
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Aug 24, 2015 05:12
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Dammit Who? posted:That's an interesting idea. Would you consider, say, Unknown Armies to be inappropriately arrogant or hopeful because of this? UA is, I feel, a very different beast thematically, and the negativity over us getting the world we deserve beats out the fact that we are still the center of the universe.
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Aug 24, 2015 05:16
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I liked that the opening fiction in the old NWoD core book involved secret spooky trips to the moon.
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Aug 24, 2015 05:26
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Dammit Who? posted:That's an interesting idea. Would you consider, say, Unknown Armies to be inappropriately arrogant or hopeful because of this? MonsieurChoc posted:UA is, I feel, a very different beast thematically, and the negativity over us getting the world we deserve beats out the fact that we are still the center of the universe. UA's refrain of "You Did It!" is meant to be exactly as terrifying as it is empowering, after all. Plus, UA doesn't explicitly assume very specific assumptions about Judeo-Christian cosmology are absolutely true external to the impact of humanity itself. In UA, if something like God exists, it's because someone ascended as The Father to the Invisible College. In oWoD, it was just straight up Old Testament God, hanging around with the Triat.
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Aug 24, 2015 05:26
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Daeren posted:UA's refrain of "You Did It!" is meant to be exactly as terrifying as it is empowering, after all. Plus, UA doesn't explicitly assume very specific assumptions about Judeo-Christian cosmology are absolutely true external to the impact of humanity itself. In UA, if something like God exists, it's because someone ascended as The Father to the Invisible College. In oWoD, it was just straight up Old Testament God, hanging around with the Triat. You put it much better than I did.
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Aug 24, 2015 05:27
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MonsieurChoc posted:UA is, I feel, a very different beast thematically, and the negativity over us getting the world we deserve beats out the fact that we are still the center of the universe. I disagree. While both Worlds of Darkness are misanthropic in the sense that they hold little hope of human redemption and fighting evil is generally a prolonged and elaborate form of suicide, both are very much about human flaws and psychological conditions. Bringing in a tired Lovecraftian misanthropy helps them not at all. I don't consider it to be "arrogant" for tabletop roleplaying games set in a real-adjacent world to consider humanity the center of the universe, because that's effectively the case in the *actual* real world. There may well be vast and terrible critters lurking in the black, but they don't matter because it would take longer than the lifetime of our species for them to say 'hello' and us to say 'hello' back. We are important by default. Daeren posted:UA's refrain of "You Did It!" is meant to be exactly as terrifying as it is empowering, after all. Yes, that's my point.
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Aug 24, 2015 05:28
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Dammit Who? posted:I disagree. While both Worlds of Darkness are misanthropic in the sense that they hold little hope of human redemption and fighting evil is generally a prolonged and elaborate form of suicide, both are very much about human flaws and psychological conditions. Bringing in a tired Lovecraftian misanthropy helps them not at all. I don't consider it to be "arrogant" for tabletop roleplaying games set in a real-adjacent world to consider humanity the center of the universe, because that's effectively the case in the *actual* real world. There may well be vast and terrible critters lurking in the black, but they don't matter because it would take longer than the lifetime of our species for them to say 'hello' and us to say 'hello' back. We are important by default. I do lean a bit more towards your viewpoint, I just agree that making humanity cosmically special can undermine horror unless done quite well. Also I'm running off more or less no sleep atm so I may inadvertently be literally arguing against my own viewpoints 
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Aug 24, 2015 05:30
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Dammit Who? posted:I disagree. While both Worlds of Darkness are misanthropic in the sense that they hold little hope of human redemption and fighting evil is generally a prolonged and elaborate form of suicide, both are very much about human flaws and psychological conditions. Bringing in a tired Lovecraftian misanthropy helps them not at all. I don't consider it to be "arrogant" for tabletop roleplaying games set in a real-adjacent world to consider humanity the center of the universe, because that's effectively the case in the *actual* real world. There may well be vast and terrible critters lurking in the black, but they don't matter because it would take longer than the lifetime of our species for them to say 'hello' and us to say 'hello' back. We are important by default. No. This isn't about your real world beliefs. We're talking about two horror settings, created to tell scary stories set within them. One rejects all we know of the universe, to reduce it to simply our Solar System and make Humanity special and the universe and it's all about us on a cosmological sense. The other doesn't, and in fact shies away from explaining anything and hints at humanity's insignificance. Upon comparing these two, I believe the second to be better suited for horror. Both Worlds of Darkness deals with humanity's place in them, and the monsters are all seen in relation to humanity, so your argument about the improtance of humanity is also meaningless. Of course we're important to ourselves, and we are at the center of the stories we tell. That doesn't make us the center of the universe, and it doesn't mean we have to create a fictional universe where our world and our species is placed on a cosmological pedestal. Edit: Like, what you're saying is that making a universe where were not the center is "tired lovecraftian mysanthropy" and I still can't wrap my head around how wrong that is. I mean, misanthropy means hate and that would put us at the center too, just out of hatred instead of love. Lovecraftian also brings in a lot of other assumptions that neither I nor the nWoD makes. And finally tired. How is that tired? Most RPG settings posit a world with active gods and a fully explained cosmology and little outside of itself (maybe a single solar system). A setting where, instead, the universe appears vast and we're in the dark about how it really works and nothing seems to indicate the importance of us or our world seems to be the exception rather than the norm. I can certainly think of a lot less than the inverse. So tired? No, not at all. MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 05:43
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Oh my god the only thing more annoying than a guy who just watched Cosmos for the first time and thinks he figured it all out, man is the one who comes in and decides all the RPGs need to be changed to reflect the mind-blowing truth of how, like, alone we all are.
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Aug 24, 2015 06:07
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I don't think the existence of life on other planets determines whether one thing is more horrific than another, meself.
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Aug 24, 2015 06:09
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Crion posted:Oh my god the only thing more annoying than a guy who just watched Cosmos for the first time and thinks he figured it all out, man is the one who comes in and decides all the RPGs need to be changed to reflect the mind-blowing truth of how, like, alone we all are. Yes, that is totally what I was talking about. gently caress's sake, that's not what I was saying and you loving know it. Edit: I even had a second post clarifying what I was saying, but I guess being smug and condescending about a strawman you built out of one of the sentences in my post is more important. gently caress I'm actually angry now. Edit edit: Me: So I was watching this cool thing and I got this idea into my head about a difference between WoD 1 and WoD 2 and I think 2 works better for horror because of XYZ. You: Guess you want every setting to be like that, also you're stupid.  Me: 
MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 06:17
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MonsieurChoc posted:Edit: Like, what you're saying is that making a universe where were not the center is "tired lovecraftian mysanthropy" and I still can't wrap my head around how wrong that is. I mean, misanthropy means hate and that would put us at the center too, just out of hatred instead of love. I-- okay, look. The reason Lovecraft is scary isn't because there are outer space monsters in it. That's just a "creature in the back of the cave" story with the biggest cave imaginable. Lovecraft's stories are about the dark side of that Sagan speech- how ultimately, and in a cosmic sense, there is no difference between you and the cultist who jammed railroad spikes into his eyeballs to summon Ythoggua. You thought that you had some kind of legitimate claim to existence, but actually They are the ones who are legitimate! It ultimately doesn't matter what you do to anyone, or to what anyone does to you! Virtue and vice are equally meaningless! That's the antihumanist, the misanthropic perspective. And don't get me wrong, these kind of stories can still be scary, in the right hands and the right context. The Worlds of Darkness are humanist horror stories. You play a monster who is mostly a person. The Promethean quest for humanity would not be well served by a sidebar stating "actually, none of this matters because the Earth is nothing more than a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam, cf Carl Sagan". The vampiric downward spiral of Humanity would not be improved by a reminder that Humanity is objectively unimportant. Even for mages, the whole point is that the creatures from beyond the outer realms consider Earth and humanity quite important indeed, and that you could choose not to do things that accidently let Them in (but you won't).
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Aug 24, 2015 06:36
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Dammit Who? posted:I-- okay, look. The reason Lovecraft is scary isn't because there are outer space monsters in it. That's just a "creature in the back of the cave" story with the biggest cave imaginable. Lovecraft's stories are about the dark side of that Sagan speech- how ultimately, and in a cosmic sense, there is no difference between you and the cultist who jammed railroad spikes into his eyeballs to summon Ythoggua. You thought that you had some kind of legitimate claim to existence, but actually They are the ones who are legitimate! It ultimately doesn't matter what you do to anyone, or to what anyone does to you! Virtue and vice are equally meaningless! That's the antihumanist, the misanthropic perspective. And don't get me wrong, these kind of stories can still be scary, in the right hands and the right context. That's a much better explanation than your earlier post. Except you're still completely missing my point. It's a comparison of approach. Promethean doesn't take the time to explain the turth of the Qashmallim or of the Demiurge and Pyros and all that, other than what has been guessed at by Prometheans. There are no creations myths setting the Earth at the center of the universe. Same with Requiem: there are no Caine equivalents, no Judeo-Christian supremacy, no knowable explanation of hwo vampires came to be or how they work. In fact, the farther you go back in time, the less can be trusted thanks to the Fog of ages. And yet, somehow, the very human conflicts you care about are still present. The Gaia and Caine mythologies are completely superfluous, and in fact the supplements get a lot of mileage out of the fact that there's a ton of poo poo that just plain doesn't make sense in the nWoD and no one knows what's going on. Had Promethean existed in the oWoD, you can believe it would have been tied into the Judeo-Christian mythologies of Masquerade, Fallen, Reckoning and Ascension. The human struggles of the Created would become cosmologically significant, probably ith a prophecy about a promethean who'd managed to become human doing something significant during the Apocalypse. And teh gameline would have been poorer for it. Once again, I'm comparing the different approaches of the two settings here (and stating my preference for one, true), not trying to make some point about how settings "should be" or whatever. Edit: Actually, the idea that human struggles become meaningless when not cosmologically significant is really weird to me. MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 06:51
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Dammit Who? posted:The Worlds of Darkness are humanist horror stories. You play a monster who is mostly a person. The Promethean quest for humanity would not be well served by a sidebar stating "actually, none of this matters because the Earth is nothing more than a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam, cf Carl Sagan". What's more, it's the exact wrong message to take from Sagan there. quote:Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves. The point of our infinite smallness isn't that it's cause for terror or despair. It's a call to action. It is precisely the redemptive note buried in every story of personal horror. That is the Great Work. It is Golconda. It is Ascension. It is the Vigil. We are nothing against that vastness and that darkness. What will we be then? Ultimately a story of impersonal horror is only tellable if you have persons to tell it through. To mistake that for anthropocentrism is to misapprehend both the kind of story you're trying to tell and storytelling, generally. Anyway the upshot here is if you want actual impersonal horror to mix into your WoD games you want Ligotti, not a YouTube video of progressively larger stars.
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Aug 24, 2015 07:01
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Nah, you want Laird Barron.
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Aug 24, 2015 07:58
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Loomer posted:Nah, you want Laird Barron.
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Aug 24, 2015 13:21
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Once again missing the point. Look at it this way: one of the core concepts of the WoD, either one, is that it's like our world, but worse. It's something that is in the introduction to pretty much every core book. Well, our world is super huge. Huge on a scale that is hard to comprehend. In the nWoD, nothing contradicts this fact. In the oWoD, on the other hand, from pretty much Werewolf onward the Solar System is the only thing in the universe. That is quite a big change from our world. Does this change add anything to the oWoD, does it help make it a better horror setting? No, it doesn't, except maybe in the case of Demon: the Fallen. Instead, it kind of removes a bit from the horror, I feel. It's a not a question of wanting to inject impersonal horror into the WoD. It's a question of the nWoD already doing it vs the oWoD not doing it at all.
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Aug 24, 2015 14:17
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Crion posted:Oh my god the only thing more annoying than a guy who just watched Cosmos for the first time and thinks he figured it all out, man is the one who comes in and decides all the RPGs need to be changed to reflect the mind-blowing truth of how, like, alone we all are. This definitely captures what's actually happening here and it's alright for you to be upset you've been caught at it. You're hardly the first.
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Aug 24, 2015 14:34
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MonsieurChoc posted:Once again missing the point. I can see your point - it's sort of like that oWoD created horror by shining light into the dark corners and showing they were full of horrible poo poo, while nWoD turned the lights way down low so that you couldn't make anything out in the corners, only the vague suggestion of slithering. oWoD is the horror of being told the world's secrets and they're monstrous, while nWoD is the horror of realising there's no end to the darkness and there'll always be a deeper layer and something weird scuttling into the cracks.
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Aug 24, 2015 14:53
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:That's definitely the owod recommendation, but I'm going to have to side with AaF for having the actual point here. Actually, Baron versus Ligotti is pretty much like oWoD v nWoD, now that you've made me think on it. Very similar subject matter, but substantial tonal differences. Hell, Ligotti is even technically superior but lacks some of the colourful 'texture' of Baron, which is exactly my experience with oWoD and nWoD.
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Aug 24, 2015 15:49
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The universe of the nWoD is centered on Earth, though, by default. Unless the Gauntlet just doesn't exist on Mars.
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Aug 24, 2015 16:54
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Effectronica posted:The universe of the nWoD is centered on Earth, though, by default. Unless the Gauntlet just doesn't exist on Mars. Could be. Maybe all planets start with a merging of the physical and spiritual and only some get a Gauntlet. Or maybe part of the Father Wolf myth is bullshit. We don't know, is the point.
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Aug 24, 2015 17:22
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Daeren posted:In addition, Idigam can call down alien spirits explicitly from the void between stars, which is about as strong a statement you can make that Weird poo poo exists far outside of the human realm of experience. Also I can't wrap my head around caring that you personally do not have a noticeable effect on the universe as a whole. Why would you do that? Why would you want that?
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Aug 24, 2015 17:29
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One of my "games I'd like to run someday" would be a deep space/umbra adventure involving a bunch of lost Void Engineers and Tradition mages working together to get back to earth through the Avatar Storm. I call it Technocracy: Voyager
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Aug 24, 2015 18:07
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Gilok posted:One of my "games I'd like to run someday" would be a deep space/umbra adventure involving a bunch of lost Void Engineers and Tradition mages working together to get back to earth through the Avatar Storm. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3723657
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Aug 24, 2015 18:14
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MonsieurChoc posted:Once again missing the point. Well, first off this is just factually wrong - deep space and alien life and so on all existed in the oWoD. There were, in fact, Nephandi whose cosmocidal drive was explicitly rooted in mind-breaking contact with ancient, apathetic palette-swapped Azathoths that lived inside distant black holes or whatever. Even, like... real-life close-minded zealots, the exact people who might be compelled to object to the pale blue dot speech on whatever grounds, will not deny that Alpha Centauri exists. In fact, in general, the idea that the oWoD represents a "change" from real-life cosmology is screwy. There's no indication at all that the oWoD universe is smaller than ours, or is expanding more slowly than ours, or is more barren of life than ours, or whatever. Creation according to Demon: the Fallen was an allegorical kaleidoscope in which a billion different things were true at once, and the final shape of the universe post-Fall was pretty much the same scientific one that you and I now live in, so individual oWoD humans are exactly as cosmically lonely as individual nWoD humans. I say "exactly" because, just as with the oWoD, the more cosmic in scope a nWoD game tries to be the more humanocentric it ends up being. It was a psychodrama played out between an earth animal and the earth's moon that ripped the spirit and physical worlds apart. It was the misadventures of a bunch of humans that melted the gates of heaven into impassable slag. Are the Fair Folk also kidnapping Andromedan children, light-years away? Does the Principle breathe live into crude conglomerations of methane crystals sculpted by the inhabants of the Ceres system? Mmmmaybe, but it might also be true that in the oWoD alien mages or alien demons were fighting their own wars out there, or felt no need to because those places were ticking along fine because of sheer luck. More broadly, though, a tiny universe or the personal attention of a god-figure or taking actions with cosmic rather than local import doesn't.. actually.. remove.. horror. If we're going to be playing with vampires and werewolves already, it's not really tenable to claim that vampires + agnosticism is more hard-hitting and bone-chilling than vampires + monotheism. The latter is in now way harder to render mysterious and alienating than the former is. I prefer the mysteries about vampire origins in Requiem to the legends about vampire origins in Masquerade, but that's not because the former are scarier.
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Aug 24, 2015 18:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:Once again missing the point.
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Aug 24, 2015 18:32
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I think you're wrong. Even Demon, with it's Kaleidoscope approach, still had the layers all vanished by modern times and Earth and Humanity at the center of it all. It's pretty explicit about that too. In Werewolf, it's pretty explicit that there's nothing outside the Solar System except the weird Deep Umbra, and Mage doesn't actually contradict that despite the existence of the Void Engineers: all the weird stuff from outside of Earth is eventually given an origin on Earth, from the weird cthonic beings to the Ziggraugglurr and the Ka'Luon. As for cosmic nWoD being just as humanocentric, I don't see it. It's written from a human perspective, because we are humans reading it and playing it, but that applies to everything else ever written. Edit: Attorney at Funk posted:But... that's complete nonsense. How so? MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 18:33
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MonsieurChoc posted:How so? Even taking all of your factual claims as given, it simply doesn't follow that a world whose cosmology makes reference to the story-venue posits a smaller or less frightening world than one whose cosmology is relevant to the story-venue but also vague.
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Aug 24, 2015 18:46
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