Korea Thread: Fumbling to take a bite of kimchi

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Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

You can make that argument; it's hard to quantify tens of thousands dead versus absolute repression. The point is that there tends to be a "North Korea really was a Communist paradise until recently :keke:

" attitude in these discussions that's really not true at all. It was a huge shithole right from the beginning.

# ? Aug 24, 2015 19:44

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# ? May 21, 2024 23:39

Mozi: Apr 4, 2004; Forms change so fast
Time is moving past
Memory is smoke
Gonna get wider when I die; Nap Ghost

NK didn't have to be a communist paradise for the South to be an unpleasant place to be in the 60s.

# ? Aug 24, 2015 19:53

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Also North Korea really was a decent place to live for a bit. Like sure not compared to the literal US but easily better than a lot of the Soviet Bloc, and better than South Korea. And then Kim Il Sung decided to make himself a god complete with ridiculous monuments and woops! Devoting way too much resources to that quickly results in a shithole.

# ? Aug 24, 2015 20:08

Azran: Sep 3, 2012; And what should one do to be remembered?

Koramei posted:

Keep in mind for everyone saying the North was more developed, the South was still probably a better place to live. The personality cult and secret police/ inminban and caste system all went into full swing in just a couple of decades. You might have had a better quality of life materially, but civil liberties were nonexistent right from the outset.

They were absolutely horrendous in the South too until fairly recently but the North has always been on a different level.

I know little about the South, did their authoritarian spree end or is that still going strong? I mean, I could easily see why they'd feel the need to stay like that, what with having such a neighbour.

Koramei posted:

You can make that argument; it's hard to quantify tens of thousands dead versus absolute repression. The point is that there tends to be a "North Korea really was a Communist paradise until recently " attitude in these discussions that's really not true at all. It was a huge shithole right from the beginning.

Just the mere idea that a communist paradise has ever existed in modern history is pretty funny :v:

Azran fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Aug 25, 2015

# ? Aug 25, 2015 00:38

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Azran posted:

I know little about the South, did their authoritarian spree end or is that still going strong? I mean, I could easily see why they'd feel the need to stay like that, what with having such a neighbour.

South Korea had a real democracy in 1960 and 1961, and then from 1987 on. Some people say 1948's election was free enough, but Syngman Rhee who was elected President that year quickly made himself into a strongman who brooked no real opposition.

It was essentially a military dictatorship 1949-1960, and was just completely straight up military dictatorship 1961-1987, with the first post dictatorship president actually being a part of the junta that just ended.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 00:43

Azran: Sep 3, 2012; And what should one do to be remembered?

Also I got to say Kim Il-Sung's memoirs are pretty funny and engaging to read. Korean War soldiers from the North are so verbose :allears:

quote:

Hero Kang Ho-yung was seriously wounded in both arms and both legs in the Kamak Hill Battle, so he rolled into the midst of the enemy with a hand grenade in his mouth and wiped them out, shouting: 'My arms and legs were broken. But on the contrary my retaliatory spirit against you scoundrels became a thousand times stronger. I will show the unbending fighting will of a member of the Worker's Party of Korea and unflinching will firmly plegdged to the Party and the Leader!'

Nintendo Kid posted:

South Korea had a real democracy in 1960 and 1961, and then from 1987 on. Some people say 1948's election was free enough, but Syngman Rhee who was elected President that year quickly made himself into a strongman who brooked no real opposition.

It was essentially a military dictatorship 1949-1960, and was just completely straight up military dictatorship 1961-1987, with the first post dictatorship president actually being a part of the junta that just ended.

Ah, I see. Interesting! Thanks

South Korean politics, unsurprisingly, look like kind of a hot mess.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 00:48

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

It ended in the late 80s; Park Geun-hye or no, South Korea's changed a whole lot. It's kind of weird talking to Koreans today and realising just how different things were only a few decades ago though (often weird for them too; stuff like not being able to leave the country until the late 80s was surprising to a lot of people I asked about it).

Nintendo Kid posted:

Also North Korea really was a decent place to live for a bit. Like sure not compared to the literal US but easily better than a lot of the Soviet Bloc, and better than South Korea. And then Kim Il Sung decided to make himself a god complete with ridiculous monuments and woops! Devoting way too much resources to that quickly results in a shithole.

You're focusing a lot on material wealth- that was better than the South's for sure (although from what I know at least, I might dispute it compared to most of the USSR). The personality cult had threads right from the end of the Korean war though, the register and caste system was very early too. A lot of it basically a continuation of the Colonial regime under the Japanese I guess. It wasn't just like one day and suddenly Hermit Kingdom, the place was poo poo to live in from the word go. like:

Azran posted:

In fact, a lot of Koreans who lived in Japan during the 50s and 60s decided to move back into North Korea both due to ideological reasons and because the South looked like a lovely place to be in. It's funny reading about those who had lucrative pachinko enterprises and decided to move back and donate as much as they could to the regime.

this story (from Aquariums of Pyongyang right?) did not have a happy ending, and that goes for pretty much all Zainichi immigrants; they were warning people not to enter right from the start. I would not have wanted to live in either Korea for the first few decades of the Cold War but anyone who says the North was better is kidding themselves. Unless living in the most Orwellian society in history isn't an issue for you as long as you get food, education, and clothes twice a year I guess.

Koramei fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Aug 25, 2015

# ? Aug 25, 2015 00:48

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Koramei posted:

You're focusing a lot on material wealth- that was better than the South's for sure (although from what I know at least, I might dispute it compared to most of the USSR). The personality cult had threads right from the end of the Korean war though, the register and caste system was very early too. A lot of it basically a continuation of the Colonial regime under the Japanese I guess. It wasn't just like one day and suddenly Hermit Kingdom, the place was poo poo to live in from the word go.

But the thing is South Korea was also a horribly oppressive dictatorship, just with different things to say that would get you killed/abused by the crazy dudes in power. You didn't have any real freedom in either place, so why not have your no freedom in the place that has better material living standards? Of course the North ended up loving up severely by the late 70s as Kim Il Sung went all "it's time to build more monuments to me and start loving over trade partners so no one wants to deal with us!".

I don't why you keep wanting to whitewash the military dictatorship of the south. You're acting like it's West Germany vs East Germany when it was really more like Nazi Germany versus East Germany.

Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Aug 25, 2015

# ? Aug 25, 2015 00:54

Azran: Sep 3, 2012; And what should one do to be remembered?

Koramei posted:

It ended in the late 80s; Park Geun-hye or no, South Korea's changed a whole lot. It's kind of weird talking to Koreans today and realising just how different things were only a few decades ago though (often weird for them too; stuff like not being able to leave the country until the late 80s was surprising to a lot of people I asked about it).

You're focusing a lot on material wealth- that was better than the South's for sure (although from what I know at least, I might dispute it compared to most of the USSR). The personality cult had threads right from the end of the Korean war though, the register and caste system was very early too. A lot of it basically a continuation of the Colonial regime under the Japanese I guess. It wasn't just like one day and suddenly Hermit Kingdom, the place was poo poo to live in from the word go. like:

this story did not have a happy ending, and that goes for pretty much all Zainichi immigrants; they were warning people not to enter right from the start.

I'd say the personality cult dates from ever further back - back when Kim was one of two possible candidates (I'm blanking on the other guy's name, he got detained and murdered a little bit after the start of the Korean War), the Soviets started improving his image and "true Communist Korean patriot honest you guys" credential. Stuff like his son ditching the "Yuria" surname, drawing no attention to how much time he spent in Soviet Russia after getting pushed out of China by the Japanese, the exact account of how he got back to Korea, etc. I mean, yes, you start getting into "then he rode down into battle on top of his white horse, and defeated the whole American army" territory during the war itself but he was pretty much into the whole personality cult thing from the get go. When the war ended and he started purging "factionalist" elements, he was also getting rid of plenty of guys who knew what his actual role was and how important he had been in resistance against Japan in China.

quote:

(from Aquariums of Pyongyang right?)

Nope, Under The Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader. At this point though, it wouldn't surprise me - it seems like it happened a bunch of times with different people.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:03

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Oh I need to read that, I'd been meaning to but it slipped by. And yeah, the story was similar in Aquariums of Pyongyang; the grandfather was incredibly wealthy from owning a casino and gave/ lost all his money to North Korea when he immigrated there. I thought Zainichi Koreans tended to be pretty heavily involved in criminal stuff in Japan (since other jobs are hard to come by for them) though so maybe it's not so surprising.

Nintendo Kid posted:

You're acting like it's West Germany vs East Germany when it was really more like Nazi Germany versus East Germany.

are you serious right now Jesus loving Christ

I didn't think I'd been whitewashing the South under Syngman Rhee but if that's your standard then sure why not.

Koramei fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Aug 25, 2015

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:14

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Koramei posted:

are you serious right now Jesus loving Christ

I didn't think I'd been whitewashing the South under Syngman Rhee but if that's your standard then sure why not.

Yeah you are because you only talk about the lack of freedoms in the North? And also it wasn't just Rhee it was all the dumbfuck military dudes after him? South Korea had nothing to recommend it until North Korea started shooting itself in the foot in the mid-late 70s.

I mean what's the other explanation for you going "but you're only focusing on material wealth"? There was no freedom in South Korea from ~49 to ~86, with the exception of the shortlived second republic.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:24

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

There was more freedom. From what you're saying it sounds like you need to read more about North Korea, because it really is and always has been on another level.

and alright, one very easy thing to name: emigration. Koreans left the South in absolute droves, both because it was a pretty awful place and also because they could.

e: also the worst of it really was under Syngman Rhee. There was plenty wrong with people like Park Chung-hee but Bodo-league massacre style terror did not extend until 1987 geez.

Koramei fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Aug 25, 2015

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:32

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Koramei posted:

There was more freedom. From what you're saying it sounds like you need to read more about North Korea, because it really is and always has been on another level.

and alright, one very easy thing to name: emigration. Koreans left the South in absolute droves, both because it was a pretty awful place and also because they could.

Being able to leave isn't much in the way of "freedom" in the country. The Nazis let people leave as well, at least before they invaded Russia. Seriously, stop and think a bit. Your defense of it being "more free" is just "you could escape the people who'd kill you if you could afford to do it". Tons of people couldn't. Not to mention plenty of people could get permission to leave denied capriciously.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:35

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

I said it was more free in pretty much every way but you just ignored those posts so I gave you an easier example.

I like your posts most of the time dude but people really aren't kidding about you sometimes huh. Let's end this one for now, and you really should read more about North Korea if you think it wasn't worse than the South.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:38

Dusty Baker 2: Jul 8, 2011; Keyboard Inghimasi

wow spoiler alert dick

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:38

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

my bad man I'll fix that it's a good book

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:42

Dusty Baker 2: Jul 8, 2011; Keyboard Inghimasi

Koramei posted:

my bad man I'll fix that it's a good book

haha I was kidding you actually prompted me to order it off amazon. now I feel like an rear end in a top hat, I'm sorry.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:43

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Koramei posted:

I said it was more free in pretty much every way but you just ignored those posts so I gave you an easier example.

It wasn't though, it was a lovely military dictatorship on par with the worst of the African and South American right wing dictatorships. Why do you insist on whitewashing this? Or are you one of those idiots who thinks that Pinochet and the argentine junta were just great?

# ? Aug 25, 2015 01:44

Uncle Jam: Aug 20, 2005; Perfect

Nintendo Kid posted:

It wasn't though, it was a lovely military dictatorship on par with the worst of the African and South American right wing dictatorships. Why do you insist on whitewashing this? Or are you one of those idiots who thinks that Pinochet and the argentine junta were just great?

Jesus christ shut up and building statues doesn't tank a country's gdp for fucks sake.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 03:03

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

Uncle Jam posted:

Jesus christ shut up and building statues doesn't tank a country's gdp for fucks sake.

It absolutely does when you start redirecting resources in your planned economy to statues and the like at a way higher priority then say, maintaining your electrical grid, or keeping up with routine infrastructure maintenance. Were you not aware of this?

# ? Aug 25, 2015 03:08

Dusty Baker 2: Jul 8, 2011; Keyboard Inghimasi

Nintendo Kid posted:

It absolutely does when you start redirecting resources in your planned economy to statues and the like at a way higher priority then say, maintaining your electrical grid, or keeping up with routine infrastructure maintenance. Were you not aware of this?

quit statueshaming.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 03:17

Mr Luxury Yacht: Apr 16, 2012

Azran posted:

Also I got to say Kim Il-Sung's memoirs are pretty funny and engaging to read. Korean War soldiers from the North are so verbose :

Ah, I see. Interesting! Thanks South Korean politics, unsurprisingly, look like kind of a hot mess.

Unfortunately he never took the grenade out of his mouth so all they heard of his oddly specific speech was "hnrgh fgnrg hngrh bflruf..."

# ? Aug 25, 2015 04:51

Azran: Sep 3, 2012; And what should one do to be remembered?

Dusty Baker 2 posted:

haha I was kidding you actually prompted me to order it off amazon. now I feel like an rear end in a top hat, I'm sorry.

If I can add some recommendations, I'd say: The Orphan Master's Son for a non-historical book (that is, it's a novel. A bestseller as well), Nothing to Envy by Barbara Demick if you want to look at the more human side of the catastrophe and lastly Under The Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader for A LOT of background on the first two Kim regimes.

I also love their weird rear end names.

Nintendo Kid posted:

It absolutely does when you start redirecting resources in your planned economy to statues and the like at a way higher priority then say, maintaining your electrical grid, or keeping up with routine infrastructure maintenance. Were you not aware of this?

That has a lot more to do with the way Kim allowed its subordinates to play around with the, uh, relative wealth of the state. If you wanted to spend a holy fuckton of money on getting him a villa, you could. This only gets worse when Kim Jong Il gets in the picture, he loved to spend money both on himself and on others, even though he was a vindictive rear end in a top hat to most people he knew.

And instead of some poo poo bronze statue (or, at most, a golden statue covered in bronze after the Chinese threw a hiss fit) I'd point at the many, many, MANY villas that were built for and by Kim, for Kim, his family and close allies.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 06:53

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

In addition to the villas, I'm not sure, but I assume the massive hotels in Pyongyang were a bigger waste of resources than Kim statues. But moreover I was under the impression that the economy suffers from an approach where the Kims reject foreign aid and investment if it would mean any loosening of absolute control.

Possibly related, but I believe that what economic good news there is regarding NK in the past 5 years or so still doesn't account for the slow, but steady crumbling of their infrastructure, for lack of the most basic maintenance for farms, factories, mines, etc.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 07:23

TheBalor: Jun 18, 2001

Things didn't get really, really bad in North Korea until the 90's, though. There were a series of natural disasters that crippled the national infrastructure network, and without Soviet help, they couldn't rebuild it.

Maybe they can finally start to recover if Jong-Un continues along a liberalization path, but it's not like this is the first time they've started something like this. They start it, let it go for a few years, then panic or get angry and shut it all down.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 16:04

Uncle Jam: Aug 20, 2005; Perfect

Nintendo Kid posted:

It absolutely does when you start redirecting resources in your planned economy to statues and the like at a way higher priority then say, maintaining your electrical grid, or keeping up with routine infrastructure maintenance. Were you not aware of this?

It has more to do with terrible economic choices in all sectors, like demanding local governments start profitable ventures without central support, but then sending those profits back to Pyongyang after doing the hard work. That won't ever produce anything. But I'm aware of fishmech's intellectual superiority in all aspects of human knowledge and for that I apologize for even replying to your post.

TheBalor posted:

Things didn't get really, really bad in North Korea until the 90's, though. There were a series of natural disasters that crippled the national infrastructure network, and without Soviet help, they couldn't rebuild it.

Maybe they can finally start to recover if Jong-Un continues along a liberalization path, but it's not like this is the first time they've started something like this. They start it, let it go for a few years, then panic or get angry and shut it all down.

While I was hopeful of the liberation path, it turned out that was the uncle shadow dictatoring the opening of the Chinese- Korean border to low and mid volume traders. Somehow Eun got hold of real power at some point and had him executed for letting too much cash go to Beijing and that was the end of that.
It seems like Euns plan now is to try to do another planned economy but do-it-right-this-time, which is really disappointing.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 20:05

HorseLord: Aug 26, 2014

Nintendo Kid posted:

It absolutely does when you start redirecting resources in your planned economy to statues and the like at a way higher priority then say, maintaining your electrical grid, or keeping up with routine infrastructure maintenance. Were you not aware of this?

Yeah, sensible countries use stone to conduct electricity

# ? Aug 25, 2015 22:43

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

HorseLord posted:

Yeah, sensible countries use stone to conduct electricity

Oh cool here comes the guy who loves Stalin to justify Kim Il Sung's palaces.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 23:20

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Fishmech even went out of his way to be fair and say North Korea was fine before Kim Il Sung went insane, it's just that insane leaders lead to insane outcomes, juche or not.

# ? Aug 26, 2015 00:52

Cliff Racer: Mar 24, 2007; by Lowtax

Halloween Jack posted:

Possibly related, but I believe that what economic good news there is regarding NK in the past 5 years or so still doesn't account for the slow, but steady crumbling of their infrastructure, for lack of the most basic maintenance for farms, factories, mines, etc.

There's been any good news, at all? In the past five years its been solely bad, I can't think of a single good thing. There were no positive aspects in the currency re-denomination, the building spree has resulted in a bunch of time-bomb buildings that are going to fall over en masse (one already has,) there's been no expansion at Kaesong due to the typical bullshit associated with doing business with North Korea, no real development under tenders to Chinese companies (once again North Korea's penchant for fuckery undermined all of its natural advantages here to the point that no work has been done) and if anything they've moved backwards with Jang's network of cronies taking their money and running rather than return to North Korea and face possible imprisonment or execution.

Well they did build that one bridge over the Yalu, right? The one which replaced the ancient railroad bridge, not the one that looks really neat but hasn't actually been connected up to the grid on the NK side because of absurd demands being placed on the Chinese groups financing the actual work.

# ? Aug 26, 2015 01:24

HorseLord: Aug 26, 2014

Nintendo Kid posted:

Oh cool here comes the guy who loves Stalin to justify Kim Il Sung's palaces.

code:

*lights go out in presidential videogame room*

kim jong-un: the gently caress happened

guard: i'm sorry your dudeness, but the five year plan assigned all the electricians to carve that copy of mount rushmore except your dad

a thing fishmech actually believes

# ? Aug 26, 2015 04:54

TROIKA CURES GREEK: Jun 30, 2015; by R. Guyovich

Koramei posted:

It ended in the late 80s; Park Geun-hye or no, South Korea's changed a whole lot. It's kind of weird talking to Koreans today and realising just how different things were only a few decades ago though (often weird for them too; stuff like not being able to leave the country until the late 80s was surprising to a lot of people I asked about it).

You're focusing a lot on material wealth- that was better than the South's for sure (although from what I know at least, I might dispute it compared to most of the USSR). The personality cult had threads right from the end of the Korean war though, the register and caste system was very early too. A lot of it basically a continuation of the Colonial regime under the Japanese I guess. It wasn't just like one day and suddenly Hermit Kingdom, the place was poo poo to live in from the word go. like:

this story (from Aquariums of Pyongyang right?) did not have a happy ending, and that goes for pretty much all Zainichi immigrants; they were warning people not to enter right from the start. I would not have wanted to live in either Korea for the first few decades of the Cold War but anyone who says the North was better is kidding themselves. Unless living in the most Orwellian society in history isn't an issue for you as long as you get food, education, and clothes twice a year I guess.

Freeeeeeedom > all is just an american thing, just look at the Chinese for an obvious example of putting up with political repression so long as the money keeps flowing. Hence why the Chinese govt is completely terrified of the market crashing and throwing everything + the kitchen sink at it to keep it afloat so they don't have T2: Tienanmen harder on their hands.

# ? Aug 26, 2015 07:13

HorseLord: Aug 26, 2014

Literally nobody cares about abstract freedoms over poo poo like job security and economic prosperity. It's why western countries can give themselves the power to imprison you indefinitely without trial (or in the UK, trial you secretly without giving you legal representation or informing you of charges), and the most reaction there is is token concern in the space of a news cycle. But when there's nothing on store shelves? Suddenly the cry for freedom is heard.

# ? Aug 26, 2015 10:18

WarpedNaba: Feb 8, 2012; Being social makes me swell!

Same point was made in Terry Pratchett's Night Watch. Revolutionaries tend to try to cause public furor by claiming the Post Office, the Presidential Palace, etc. But if they really wanted to press home the issue, laying claim to logistical/food warehouses and being generous with the rationing would get real results.

Lesson being: People don't care about who governs them half the time, but if they miss dinner you can bet your rear end they'll suddenly have a beef to make (pun semi-intended).

# ? Aug 26, 2015 11:27

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Hell, that issue comes into stark focus in South Korea today. Park Chung-hee, despite being a authoritarian military dictator who brutally cracked down on protests while imprisoning and torturing political dissenters and journalists, has the highest popularity rating of any South Korean ex-president. Despite all the repression and lack of freedom, he was in control when the South Korean economy first really started to grow, and was assassinated and replaced in response to mass protests as soon as the economic growth began to slow, so his legacy among older Koreans who knew to keep their mouths shut and not complain about politics is one of prosperity and happiness.

http://newamericamedia.org/2013/03/why-late-south-korean-dictator-park-chung-hee-is-the-most-popular-president-ever.php

quote:

It starts, as it should, with a fight between my parents and me when discussing Park Chung-hee, South Korea’s longest-ruling autocrat. Korean politics run along strict generational lines, much more so than American politics, and feelings about Park, it would seem, follow that rule closely.

I was interviewing University of California, Berkeley, professor Elaine Kim, one of the grand dames of Asian American academia, and proudly left-wing when it comes to Korean politics. She once got a vanity license plate that read JUCHE, a “wonderful idea,” she said, of the eponymous philosophy of radical Korean self-reliance, introduced by North Korean leader Kim Il-sung in 1967, and later adopted by some far-left liberal South Koreans disenchanted with American meddling in local affairs. So perhaps it should come as little surprise when she said, “When I was a graduate student at Columbia [during the ’70s], there were people in the higher up that Park Chung-hee paid to watch what kinds of publications students were reading. They would report that [back to Park],” she said.

She told other stories: rough-looking Korean men suddenly appearing at community meetings in Oakland; the quick trial and execution of students in South Korea on trumped-up charges of being part of a Communist cell; Park’s personal flaws, including infidelity and domestic violence. She allowed that the nation did end up better off economically thanks to Park’s reforms, but she also emphasized the macro factors, especially the U.S. role in financing the South Korean economic miracle.

I asked my father for his thoughts. “She calls herself a professor? She doesn’t know anything,” he said. “She must be a communist.”

So began my parents’ spirited defense of Park. He essentially built the nation, they said. Without him, the country might never have gotten off its feet. Younger people don’t understand how hard it used to be. Even Park’s infelicitous domestic life was waved off with a casualness that shocked me: Who didn’t beat their wife back then? Human rights abuses did occur, they allowed, but the good far outweighed the bad. And then my parents urged me never to write about politics, and stick to safer topics, like music or restaurants.

Given that the South Korean reward for critical political writing has traditionally been a round in a small room with a man wielding live electrical wire, I can understand my parents’ impromptu career advice. I let it drop. Our conversation about South Korean politics had already reached the inevitable end point of every conversation about South Korean politics: red-baiting, name calling and a dose of the you-just-don’t-understands. There was nowhere else for the discussion to go, I thought.

Some version of this conversation doubtless occurred in households across Korea and the Korean diaspora with the election of Park Geun-hye, Park Chung-hee’s daughter, to the South Korean presidency last December. One of the narratives that has emerged from her victory is that the older generation voted for the heir of the man who turned the nation around, while the outnumbered younger generation flinched at the thought of nigh dynastic succession for the daughter of the dictator. The old called the young feckless, communistic, stupid, while the young called the old forgetful, nostalgic, stupid. Postelection despair among the under-40s is reported to have been uncharacteristically, and extremely, severe.

Generational gaps in South Korea are more like chasms, given how much the country has changed in the last 50 years. A person in his or her 80s saw Japanese occupation, Communist purges, two hot wars, one cold one and an industrial revolution. Someone in his or her 20s probably plays Counter-Strike really, really well, and can effortlessly summon the particulars of K-pop choreography going back at least to the ’90s. Context for any conversation about Park Chung-hee isn’t just a prerequisite; it’s the entire conversation.

Park, an army general of short stature with an imperious mien, took the nation over in a bloodless coup on May 16, 1961. At the time, South Korea was one of the most impoverished nations in the world, even worse off than North Korea. Park’s coup received tacit approval from the general populace and the U.S. military, in that there was little resistance to change following the autocratic, corrupt and ineffectual rule of the first South Korean president and U.S. puppet, Syngman Rhee. The Kennedy administration soon gave outright support to Park after catching wind of the economic reforms to come; they needed Japan and South Korea to be thriving, nominally democratic buffers against the Communist bloc. Europe got the Marshall Plan to buttress the postwar economy of Germany; Asia, another front in the Cold War, got an unnamed series of investments into Japan and South Korea.

Park moved quickly to integrate South Korea with international sources of funding. He normalized relations with Japan, to the chagrin of many South Koreans. The treaty opened the door for hundreds of millions of dollars in investment from Japan and the U.S. (they supported the deal), and created a Japanese market for cheap South Korean goods. Park also sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers to fight alongside the Americans in Vietnam—for a price, of course—which in turn allowed South Korean contractors to take the lead in rebuilding the country after the war. Much of this money went into infrastructure. Earlier projects included industry-friendly projects like a highway to connect Seoul to the ports in Busan. Later projects raised the standard of living in rural areas, which had seen fewer of the benefits than the urban areas, through projects like the popular Saemaeul Undong, or New Village Movement.

“I remember taking a tour of [New Village Movement] in 1975 to see the steady transformation of the tradition-bound Korean countryside—village roads being paved, replacement of thatched roof with corrugated iron roofing, the kitchen innovation that brought stainless steel kitchen sinks to Koreanajummas to cook and wash standing, not squatted on the floor. To them, Park indeed was a savior, a revolutionary chasing poverty away,” wrote Shim Jae-hoon, a columnist in South Korea, in 2010.

Park’s government also transformed the South Korean economy into an export-oriented dynamo by heavily influencing the direction of some familiar companies: Hyundai, Samsung, Daewoo. To great success, Park staffed his government with technocrats, and rewarded only those companies that met high export quotas. His economic council incentivized the development of industries familiar as Korean wheelhouses: textiles, wig-making and footwear. It was free market capitalism in name only; an irony, given what was going on above the 38th Parallel. But South Korea’s economy started to boom.

“It was a grand success and a declaration of Korean independence. Ever since, Koreans have straightened their backs and walked with confidence,” wrote historian Bruce Cumings in Korea’s Place in the Sun, an account of modern Korean history.

The way Park went about these changes, of course, is what mars his record. Park’s relationship with business was cozy—some say too cozy. Park also had little patience for dissidents, jailing, torturing and even executing those who got in his way. Spies were everywhere. Anyone who disagreed was a communist. He engaged in bizarre cultural battles, like outlawing miniskirts and rock and roll (a move that, according to the South Korean guitar god Shin Joong-hyun, set back the cause of Korean rock, and opened up the way for the electronic pop music that still dominates today). He even bribed U.S. officials through the Unification Church — better known as the Moonies.

As Park’s rule entered its second decade, he declared himself president for life under the so-called Yushin constitution (a reference to Japan’s Meiji restoration, a touchstone for the Japanophile Park), and his reign grew more repressive. He had nearly lost an election to opposition leader Kim Dae-jung, whom Park subsequently tried to have killed. Some speculate Park also anticipated a downshifting of U.S. support; the Cold War in Asia was winding down, with the end of the Vietnam War and Nixon’s visit to China.

Park started to force government subsidies into heavy industries. Though his economic council urged continued investment in industries like textiles, which require smaller investments, Park had long equated national strength with steel production, and he wanted to get South Korea into industries like shipbuilding, machinery, electronics, chemicals and automobiles. The economy kept growing, albeit more slowly, and the large conglomerates, or chaebol, started to resemble their current forms, as the economist Edward Graham wrote in his 2003 book, Reforming Korea’s Industrial Conglomerates.“Because this was also the period during which the largest of the chaebol began to take shape, there exists in Korea to this day an association of the rise of these firms with repressive aspects of the last years of Park’s rule,” he wrote.

This sense — that you can’t make an omelet without breaking some eggs—is at the core of many Koreans’ positive view of Park today. But at the time, Park’s popularity plummeted because of a slowing economy, the widening gap between rich and poor, and the increasing repressiveness of his regime. In 1974, an assassination attempt led to the death of his wife, after which his daughter and current president, Park Geun-hye, assumed the duties of the first lady. In 1979, his own chief of security would successfully assassinate him.

# ? Aug 26, 2015 17:04

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Cliff Racer posted:

There's been any good news, at all? In the past five years its been solely bad, I can't think of a single good thing. There were no positive aspects in the currency re-denomination, the building spree has resulted in a bunch of time-bomb buildings that are going to fall over en masse (one already has,) there's been no expansion at Kaesong due to the typical bullshit associated with doing business with North Korea, no real development under tenders to Chinese companies (once again North Korea's penchant for fuckery undermined all of its natural advantages here to the point that no work has been done) and if anything they've moved backwards with Jang's network of cronies taking their money and running rather than return to North Korea and face possible imprisonment or execution.

Well they did build that one bridge over the Yalu, right? The one which replaced the ancient railroad bridge, not the one that looks really neat but hasn't actually been connected up to the grid on the NK side because of absurd demands being placed on the Chinese groups financing the actual work.

Mediadave posted some stuff earlier, but bear in my that by "good news" I mean "partial recovery since the late 90s."

# ? Aug 26, 2015 17:47

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

Incidentally for those that don't know, Park Chung-hee is also the father of the current president, Geun-hye.

e: oh it even says so in the article

HorseLord posted:

Literally nobody cares about abstract freedoms over poo poo like job security and economic prosperity. It's why western countries can give themselves the power to imprison you indefinitely without trial (or in the UK, trial you secretly without giving you legal representation or informing you of charges), and the most reaction there is is token concern in the space of a news cycle. But when there's nothing on store shelves? Suddenly the cry for freedom is heard.

Yup. But in North Korea a lot of the lack of freedoms weren't so abstract even back then, there were real tangible constraints on the population at all strata of society that they were well aware of. For the most part until the famine in the 90s people didn't care (and how much they care today is an important question) but that doesn't mean it didn't affect them.

Koramei fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Aug 26, 2015

# ? Aug 26, 2015 17:47

Nintendo Kid: Aug 4, 2011; by Smythe

HorseLord posted:

*lights go out in presidential videogame room*

kim jong-un: the gently caress happened

guard: i'm sorry your dudeness, but the five year plan assigned all the electricians to carve that copy of mount rushmore except your dad
a thing fishmech actually believes

No, stalin humper, the consistent misallocation of funds, resources, and labor over an extended period of time led to the inability to afford to fix poo poo.

If you go and make a significant chunk of your labor force spend 10 years carving a replica of mount rushmore except with 4 pictures of Kim Il Sung you'll end up without the money and resources to fix say a hydroelectric dam or to replace a generator turbine, or to simply keep some roads and buildings maintained.

# ? Aug 26, 2015 18:29

JohnGalt: Aug 7, 2012

It's really weird to think that my dad was a soldier for a right wing dictator. Is there any good books on south Korea during this time?

# ? Aug 26, 2015 19:26

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# ? May 21, 2024 23:39

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Yeah what I'm particularly curious about is how that worked with regards to the UN and US after the war. Obviously they'd have to be still best buddies and it's not like the US was particularly picky about that sort of stuff during the cold war, but still. Were there any efforts to influence the government to be less lovely or what?

"We fought this bloody war against the communist pigs so you could live under this horrendous dictator. You're welcome!"

mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Aug 26, 2015

# ? Aug 26, 2015 23:01

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Korea Thread: Fumbling to take a bite of kimchi

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