|
MonsieurChoc posted:I think you're wrong. Even Demon, with it's Kaleidoscope approach, still had the layers all vanished by modern times and Earth and Humanity at the center of it all. It's pretty explicit about that too. In Werewolf, it's pretty explicit that there's nothing outside the Solar System except the weird Deep Umbra, and Mage doesn't actually contradict that despite the existence of the Void Engineers: all the weird stuff from outside of Earth is eventually given an origin on Earth, from the weird cthonic beings to the Ziggraugglurr and the Ka'Luon. That's backwards. It all vanished by modern times to leave a universe in which Earth and Humanity weren't the center of it all. That's why, like, atheists were capable of existing in the oWoD. Unless they actually saw a ghost with their own eyes, they could perform the same science experiments and point telescopes at the same distant places as we can in the real world. Even "Earth" and "Humanity" could be taken as referring to sapient life everywhere, or whatever - wouldn't God love the Arcturans, too? "There's nothing outside the Solar System except the weird Deep Umbra" is perfectly homologous with There's nothing outside the Solar System except the weird Outer Space." quote:As for cosmic nWoD being just as humanocentric, I don't see it. It's written from a human perspective, because we are humans reading it and playing it, but that applies to everything else ever written. You'll have a much harder time proving that anything of supernatural import exists outside the lunar sphere in nWoD than you would in the oWoD. On top of that, oWoD humans generally have cosmos-affecting stuff done to them or piled on their shoulders; nWoD humans wreck poo poo completely on their own.
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 18:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 10:50 |
|
|
Ferrinus posted:That's backwards. It all vanished by modern times to leave a universe in which Earth and Humanity weren't the center of it all. That's why, like, atheists were capable of existing in the oWoD. Unless they actually saw a ghost with their own eyes, they could perform the same science experiments and point telescopes at the same distant places as we can in the real world. Even "Earth" and "Humanity" could be taken as referring to sapient life everywhere, or whatever - wouldn't God love the Arcturans, too? Except the Deep Umbra is shown to be just a place where all kind of weird stuff exist on the boundaires of the oWoD universe. It's not infinite, and is in fact quite (cosmoligcally) small. Pretty much all the Apocalypse scenarios are based on these facts, and a couple of the other end of the world ones too. The fact that they included some token efforts to try to make the universe seem like our own and then undermined them all later doesn't change that. Attorney at Funk posted:Even taking all of your factual claims as given, it simply doesn't follow that a world whose cosmology makes reference to the story-venue posits a smaller or less frightening world than one whose cosmology is relevant to the story-venue but also vague. That's a matter of opinion, I think. I feel that a smaller world where humanity is super special awesome is inherently less frigthening than one where this isn't the case.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 18:54
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:That's a matter of opinion, I think. I feel that a smaller world where humanity is super special awesome is inherently less frigthening than one where this isn't the case. Why?
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 18:58
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Except the Deep Umbra is shown to be just a place where all kind of weird stuff exist on the boundaires of the oWoD universe. It's not infinite, and is in fact quite (cosmoligcally) small. Deep space is also not infinite, and pretty much a place where weird stuff exists on the boundaries of our world. People (here I include both humans and humanlike monsters) experience the world the same way in either setting, and indeed in the same way you and I do and quite possibly that every human who'll ever live ever will.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 19:01
|
|
|
Well, to me, that's pretty simple: What'S scarier, the known or the unknown? Being on top or being on the bottom? Being powerful or powerless?
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 21:11
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Well, to me, that's pretty simple: What'S scarier, the known or the unknown? Being on top or being on the bottom? Being powerful or powerless? None of those things are rendered true or false by a significant position in the cosmology, though. People in the oWoD aren't actually demonstrably more powerful or special or influential on an individual scale than they are in the nWoD. Rhe idea that we're less "on the bottom" in the oWoD, a setting with a much more conscious and explicit anti-authoritarian throughline, borders on farcical.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 21:17
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Well, to me, that's pretty simple: What'S scarier, the known or the unknown? Being on top or being on the bottom? Being powerful or powerless? Remember when you had a good hearty lol at the idea that you were some bland Lovecraft poseur, and then the joke turned out to be that those guys actually have a more interesting vision of horror than you do
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 21:23
|
|
|
Knowing that God is real and doesn't give a poo poo about you is probably scarier than wondering.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 21:36
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:Well, to me, that's pretty simple: What'S scarier, the known or the unknown? Being on top or being on the bottom? Being powerful or powerless? 2001: A Space Odyssey is scarier than Psycho?
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 21:56
|
|
|
I'm enjoying this argument because it isn't about Mage 
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 22:09
|
|
|
Gilok posted:I'm enjoying this argument because it isn't about Mage Don't you jinx this by even mentioning That Game. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 22:16
|
|
|
New England's Puritans had a very strict, well-understood cosmic order. They knew they were special, that Almighty God was protecting the righteous, and that they would live eternally no matter what was done to them. They were infinitely more afraid of The Woods than most modern Americans.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 22:17
|
|
|
Zarick posted:Knowing that God is real and doesn't give a poo poo about you is probably scarier than wondering. Yeah, but that's not the position the oWoD took. Except if you're a Demon. The oWoD was full of rah-rah-go-Humanity stuff. But whatever. I can see the usual "let's argue for the sake of arguing" internet effect is already there, so whatever, I'm dropping it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 22:40
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:The oWoD was full of rah-rah-go-Humanity stuff. No it wasn't.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 23:10
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:No it wasn't. Yeah, uh, oWoD was hilariously misanthropic, even if it was anthropocentric, but this argument's been going in circles since I went to bed last night, it seems.
|
|
#
?
Aug 24, 2015 23:21
|
|
|
Daeren posted:Yeah, uh, oWoD was hilariously misanthropic, even if it was anthropocentric, but this argument's been going in circles since I went to bed last night, it seems. when you have two points only one of which is going anywhere, typically you end up with a circle, yes
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 00:14
|
|
|
Attorney at Funk posted:when you have two points only one of which is going anywhere, typically you end up with a circle, yes makes u think
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 00:15
|
|
|
Gilok posted:I'm enjoying this argument because it isn't about Mage A Mysterium mage would make a good defense attorney because its all about hiding evidence and facts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 00:56
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:"There's nothing outside the Solar System except the weird Deep Umbra" is perfectly homologous with There's nothing outside the Solar System except the weird Outer Space." And there are a few MtAs sources that treat the two as virtually synonymous, like the grey aliens rode who their flying saucers to Earth from the Deep Umbra. MonsieurChoc posted:Except the Deep Umbra is shown to be just a place where all kind of weird stuff exist on the boundaires of the oWoD universe. It's not infinite, and is in fact quite (cosmoligcally) small. Werewolf's fixed Umbral realms (Malfeas, et al) aren't in the Deep Umbra, they're in the Middle Umbra. Werewolf doesn't really ever touch on the Deep Umbra because it's all but irrelevant to Werewolf's cosmology and conflicts, and Mage rarely references Werewolf's realms for essentially the same reason.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 01:03
|
|
|
gtrmp posted:And there are a few MtAs sources that treat the two as virtually synonymous, like the grey aliens rode who their flying saucers to Earth from the Deep Umbra. Those dudes got retconned, actually, they're the evil mutant reflection of the Void Engineers to go with all the other Negative Zone Technocrats. So they're humans mutated by being trapped in the Avatar Storm.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 01:05
|
|
|
Mors Rattus posted:Those dudes got retconned, actually, they're the evil mutant reflection of the Void Engineers to go with all the other Negative Zone Technocrats. So they're humans mutated by being trapped in the Avatar Storm. Edit: Also minor thing, but it wasn't the avatar storm itself that did the warping, it's just something that happens in the oWoD Umbra, called acclimatisation iirc. The longer you spend in the umbra, the more spirit-like you become. It's possible to ward against it, and some paradigms/individuals seem more susceptible than others, but anyone spending more than 3 months in the umbra without protection becomes a spirit of themselves or whatever they believe. That's why the Technocracy rotated staff between "deep space" installations, and why Mages didn't spend all their time loving about there. Thinking of it, it was probably a Revised-era change, in order to cut down on the Wacky Umbral Adventures side of Mage, maybe? Sorry for swinging chat back to mage. Ambi fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Aug 25, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 02:04
|
|
|
IIRC it's a new Mage20 change/reveal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 02:33
|
|
|
Ambi posted:Sorry for swinging chat back to mage. It always gets there anyway. I wonder why that is. What the hell is it about Mage?
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 02:48
|
|
|
Nicolae Carpathia posted:It always gets there anyway. I wonder why that is. What the hell is it about Mage? Daeren posted:And thus we come full circle back to oMage, the infinite, bloated ouroboros at the center of the RPG world.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 03:04
|
|
|
Nicolae Carpathia posted:It always gets there anyway. I wonder why that is. What the hell is it about Mage? Well, Mage is really cool, is the main thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 03:12
|
|
|
Nicolae Carpathia posted:It always gets there anyway. I wonder why that is. What the hell is it about Mage? It's a game so extremely confused to its purpose or premise that, given enough sourcebooks, it confirms to whatever preconceived interpretation the reader wants. Then two different readers meet, and have arguments.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 03:32
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:It's a game so extremely confused to its purpose or premise that, given enough sourcebooks, it confirms to whatever preconceived interpretation the reader wants. purpose: gently caress yeah be a wizard! It's that simple. The problem (in and out of character) is when two+ wizards disagree about how to be wizards best.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 03:34
|
|
|
No, it's not about being a wizard, I read Guide to the Technocracy, it's about fulfilling humanity's potential with awesome science.* * I super don't care save to provide an example of how easy it is to start this sort of fire.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 03:40
|
|
|
The wallpaper...must be green.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 03:42
|
|
|
I really wish I was better at not being an rear end in a top hat and letting my games die on here. I can manage them IRL, but online I don't seem to be able to. I feel like a total dick over it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 03:47
|
|
|
Loomer posted:I really wish I was better at not being an rear end in a top hat and letting my games die on here. I can manage them IRL, but online I don't seem to be able to. I feel like a total dick over it. I can do online but only if it's fixed-time chat/skype/whatever games. Roll20 good, pbp bad. I have no idea why 
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 09:05
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:No, it's not about being a wizard, I read Guide to the Technocracy, it's about fulfilling humanity's potential with awesome science.* It has the potential to be many things to many people, often quite different depending on the person, just like magic. Perhaps each argument brings us closer to Atlantis. Or maybe that's just the drowning sensation I get from reading them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 09:06
|
|
|
spectralent posted:I can do online but only if it's fixed-time chat/skype/whatever games. Roll20 good, pbp bad. I have no idea why Play by post is a really bad format, honestly. It's way too easy to lose track and get bogged down with it- Roll20 owns.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 09:14
|
|
|
Kavak posted:Play by post is a really bad format, honestly. It's way too easy to lose track and get bogged down with it- Roll20 owns. The problem PbP runs into is when two (or more!) characters want to actually have an in-character conversation and then uh-oh everything's ground to a halt.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 11:36
|
|
|
I'm surprised there isn't a WoD game based on being a writer, director, (or game designer?) based on how frequently those occupations get involved with the supernatural in horror.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 12:37
|
|
|
bewilderment posted:The problem PbP runs into is when two (or more!) characters want to actually have an in-character conversation and then uh-oh everything's ground to a halt. This's basically why I've always struggled with freeform, particularly. To my mind, good IC convos go like this: Bob: "It's a pity that Baron Bloodfang's eating everyone" Janet: "Baron Bloodfang is a fine citizen and you are satan" Bob: "I may be satan but this has nothing to do with the cannibalism going on" Janet: "But do demons not eat people?" Bob: "A common misconception, we only eat souls" etc etc Whereas freeform always seems to exist in this space where you type up like 300-500 word posts, and either you throw loads of unnecessary padding or have everyone monologue at each other, and it reads really weird to me. With RP PbP the issue runs deeper, IMO, since any point of interaction slows things down, including combat, skill use, social scenes, investigations...
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 12:46
|
|
|
moths posted:I'm surprised there isn't a WoD game based on being a writer, director, (or game designer?) based on how frequently those occupations get involved with the supernatural in horror. I've always thought a Hunter game built around a reality TV show like Mountain Monsters actually finding real monsters would be awesome.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 13:22
|
|
|
Loomer posted:I've always thought a Hunter game built around a reality TV show like Mountain Monsters actually finding real monsters would be awesome. Basically that one quest in Bloodlines expanded to a whole scenario/campaign? Sounds great.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 13:24
|
|
|
Loomer posted:I've always thought a Hunter game built around a reality TV show like Mountain Monsters actually finding real monsters would be awesome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSZZKw8g3UI
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 13:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 10:50 |
|
|
That new oWoD ghosthunters book is coming, right?
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 14:00
|
|