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Jsor posted:What level should you go into the last fight? I heard there are some cool mechanics that don't trigger if you're too high a level. The only reason they wouldn't trigger is if you're so strong you bury the final boss before they happen. I was around 77-78 and I saw the new mechanic.
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Aug 25, 2015 05:48
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Wait. What's this new mechanic?
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Aug 25, 2015 06:01
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Mak0rz posted:Wait. What's this new mechanic? A vision war or something like that? I don't know, I just heard about it.
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Aug 25, 2015 06:07
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Below 80 for optimal difficulty.
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Aug 25, 2015 06:57
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Jsor posted:A vision war or something like that? I don't know, I just heard about it. I beat the game three times and I don't remember anything like that... Granted I was OP as hell for one of those battles, but still.
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Aug 25, 2015 07:09
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Final battle spoilers: So you know how the game has this whole vision mechanic, right? Which kicks in when an enemy's charging up a move that would either kill someone or severely gently caress them up? Well, plot-wise that kinda traces back to Zanza himself, so you don't quite get those for free when fighting him. Instead, you have to succeed on a timed B-button press (like burst affinity or continuing a chain attack) - if you do, you get the vision as normal, but if you don't hit the timed B, you just don't get the vision. Also, the fact that the move has to be capable of loving you up to get a vision about it, is why you don't see this if you're overleveled. Because you're just shrugging everything off anyway and wouldn't trigger visions in the first place unless you're playing sloppy. Don't tackle the last boss with a level higher than the low 80s (mid 80s at the very highest), at least not the first time around. If you're gonna do the optional poo poo like the high level uniques or the poo poo-ton of sidequests that open up near the end of the game, leave it for after you've beaten the game at a reasonable level, then go back to your save before the point of no return.
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Aug 25, 2015 07:27
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ImpAtom posted:Effortpost: I can only say that I respectfully disagree with this. Is Xenoblade a perfect game? By no means. The game has many issues such as too many useless side quests, an unpolished battle system, and a strange level curve. However I do think the game is comfortably one of the best RPGs to come out in years. What makes Xenoblade so interesting is that it takes a step in an often untapped direction within the JRPG genre in general. Rather than being bogged by traveling through a linear path to visit random town, you instead have a vast world to explore filled with secrets to uncover. Sure the sidequests in the game tend to be very simplistic and plotless and some JRPGs have certainly improved with that aspect (SMTIV), but many are still interesting and worth while. And at the end of the day, it is more rewarding to complete a quest to grind on enemies than it is to just do the typical JRPG progression of "don't skip any battles on your path and you be okay". Your item complaint seems a bit strange to me as I recall finding many uses for the items enemies drop, but maybe we just have different play styles. In regards to the battle system, it certainly isn't perfect, and can be too random (which is the case for most AI party controlled systems) but it does take the genre in an interesting new direction and it did lead to a bunch of potential in different play styles for combat. I enjoyed how during many boss battles and quests I was forced to regularly mix up my party, it really kept the game fresh. As for the story, well while it may not be the most unique story in RPGs, it is a very well crafted, engaging, and "epic" story that satisfies an itch for JRPG fans that hadn't really been satisfied since the PS2 era. The setting itself also helps as it is pretty unique, I mean sure it's "scifi" and "mech" but those are very broad terms. I mean the game technically has a post-apocalyptic man vs machine plot, but at the same time it takes place in many unique locations and cultures with an adventure novel tone that it makes the setting and characters really stand out. So yeah, looked at individually the game may seem over-rated. However when taken as a whole, the game really does shine and it isn't hard to see why so many put the game in their "top five" of the genre. But to each his own.
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Aug 25, 2015 07:53
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Xenoblade has a perfectly good and reasonably polished battle system, the issue is they can't use it properly because the AI is too dumb for them to make encounters where they can reasonably expect you to exploit the mechanics to their fullest. The only real problem with the system I have is spike damage, which I think is needlessly punishing (on-hit spike damage anyway, topple spike is a somewhat interesting deterrent). Especially when the best counter to spike damage is arguably to rifle through your inventory and regem your characters. Aggro is also a bit wonky with haste-build Seven, I guess, but that's due to sheer DPS output and I think it would still be an issue in any reasonably implemented aggro system. I think the game is probably on the upper end of the curve as far as JRPGs go. Yes, the story (and I finished the game now) hits many of the same beats as a normal JRPG plot, but I thought it approached those beats in an interesting, novel way. Perhaps more importantly, it did the story beats in a way that's far more comprehensible than, say, Kingdom Hearts' ridiculously convoluted cosmology. It was a mishmash of JRPG, Shounen anime, and Mecha anime tropes, but they executed it extremely well. It's not high art, and the themes aren't as complex as some works in those genres, but it's definitely one example of those sorts of stories being done correctly.
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Aug 25, 2015 09:44
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Jsor posted:I think the game is probably on the upper end of the curve as far as JRPGs go. Yes, the story (and I finished the game now) hits many of the same beats as a normal JRPG plot, but I thought it approached those beats in an interesting, novel way. Perhaps more importantly, it did the story beats in a way that's far more comprehensible than, say, Kingdom Hearts' ridiculously convoluted cosmology. It was a mishmash of JRPG, Shounen anime, and Mecha anime tropes, but they executed it extremely well. It's not high art, and the themes aren't as complex as some works in those genres, but it's definitely one example of those sorts of stories being done correctly. It's sort of like Attack on Titan. Yes on paper it hits many of the same tropes but due to the way its presented and the setting it certainly doesn't feel that way.
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Aug 25, 2015 12:45
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 december 4th. 
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Aug 25, 2015 13:48
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I... don't know. I feel like they might have taken it one step too far? Some of the post-final battle reveal stuff comes out of nowhere and didn't really need explaining, I guess. On top of that there's a couple throwaway lines from a little bit earlier in the game that could have used a bit of extra explaining. Stuff like how Zanza was seeking friendship or how he talks about countless cycles of destruction and rebirth even though that doesn't seem to be the case? I liked that the game was full of hard left turn plot twists but the final one didn't really pay off for me.  Jsor posted:The only real problem with the system I have is spike damage, which I think is needlessly punishing (on-hit spike damage anyway, topple spike is a somewhat interesting deterrent). Especially when the best counter to spike damage is arguably to rifle through your inventory and regem your characters. I don't like spike damage and I feel it's a really detrimental system that drags the game down. There doesn't seem to be any real indicator on if an enemy has spike damage or not, or at least if there is it's so subtle that I didn't notice it at all in my 60+ hour playthrough. You'll just be attacking a dude and you'll notice that you're suddenly either dead or near-death. Any time I realized an enemy had spike I had to accept my loss, respawn at the nearest landmark, take my haste build Seven out of my party, then manually control Shulk to just spam Purge over and over. It never felt satisfying to me.
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Aug 25, 2015 14:21
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punk rebel ecks posted:And at the end of the day, it is more rewarding to complete a quest to grind on enemies than it is to just do the typical JRPG progression of "don't skip any battles on your path and you be okay". Except the optimal way to play the game is to actually avoid those quests because doing them leaves you absurdly overleveled. Like on my 3DS playthrough I literally skipped every sidequest except the ones to get the portable furnace and the ones to get Seven's fourth skill tree (plus anything required to get to those) and was still almost overleveled for the entire game. Hell, people on this very page are talking about how you should avoid going in on the final boss overleveled because you lose out on neat mechanics. punk rebel ecks posted:Your item complaint seems a bit strange to me as I recall finding many uses for the items enemies drop, but maybe we just have different play styles. Like what? Enemies drop collectibles (used only for sidequests) armor/weapons (90% Vendor Trash) and gems (nobody actually meaningfully uses Tier 1 Blaze Defense Gems or whatever.) I mean if I missed something I can do with these items i'd like to know but I don't recall much. punk rebel ecks posted:. In regards to the battle system, it certainly isn't perfect, and can be too random (which is the case for most AI party controlled systems) but it does take the genre in an interesting new direction and it did lead to a bunch of potential in different play styles for combat. I don't really feel it's very new for the genre. It's effectively an MMO combat system. It's a well-executed one with good character design (but bad AI) but it is intentionally built around that style of combat. It has a lot in common with FFXII in that regards. I think Xenoblade shines on having extremely store core character design and that is one thing I feel it does exceptionally well, but I don't think it is revolutionary for the genre at all. punk rebel ecks posted:As for the story, well while it may not be the most unique story in RPGs, it is a very well crafted, engaging, and "epic" story that satisfies an itch for JRPG fans that hadn't really been satisfied since the PS2 era. I'll be honest. I don't see a meaningful difference between Xenoblade and, say, some of the Tales of games or various handheld games. When people say "better than JRPGs" I get the distinct feeling they're just saying "better than Final Fantasy." Edit: I mean, that said, I still think Xenoblade is a very fun game! I just do feel it is overrated. v  v
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Aug 25, 2015 |
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Aug 25, 2015 15:39
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ImpAtom posted:I'll be honest. I don't see a meaningful difference between Xenoblade and, say, some of the Tales of games or various handheld games. When people say "better than JRPGs" I get the distinct feeling they're just saying "better than Final Fantasy." Yeah. In the same way, I feel that whenever people say that JRPGs died in the 7th gen, they mean "FF13 was bad and I refuse to look at handhelds".
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Aug 25, 2015 15:51
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ImpAtom posted:Except the optimal way to play the game is to actually avoid those quests because doing them leaves you absurdly overleveled. Like on my 3DS playthrough I literally skipped every sidequest except the ones to get the portable furnace and the ones to get Seven's fourth skill tree (plus anything required to get to those) and was still almost overleveled for the entire game. Hell, people on this very page are talking about how you should avoid going in on the final boss overleveled because you lose out on neat mechanics. Really? I didn't experience that at all. I found the opposite to be true. I had to do a little more side quests than I was comfortable with in order to be properly leveled. ImpAtom posted:Like what? Enemies drop collectibles (used only for sidequests) armor/weapons (90% Vendor Trash) and gems (nobody actually meaningfully uses Tier 1 Blaze Defense Gems or whatever.) I mean if I missed something I can do with these items i'd like to know but I don't recall much. ImpAtom posted:I don't really feel it's very new for the genre. It's effectively an MMO combat system. It's a well-executed one with good character design (but bad AI) but it is intentionally built around that style of combat. It has a lot in common with FFXII in that regards. I think Xenoblade shines on having extremely store core character design and that is one thing I feel it does exceptionally well, but I don't think it is revolutionary for the genre at all. Well it certainly is unique to the genre at least because it blends in a lot of JRPG and console sensibilities to the existing MMO formula. Such as adding the pot crafting system and, most importantly, having semi-realtime combat tuned to console controls and a single player experience. ImpAtom posted:I'll be honest. I don't see a meaningful difference between Xenoblade and, say, some of the Tales of games or various handheld games. When people say "better than JRPGs" I get the distinct feeling they're just saying "better than Final Fantasy." To each his own then. I found the story and universe far more engaging then nearly every other RPG I've played, and my tastes go far beyond Square-Enix.
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Aug 25, 2015 15:57
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punk rebel ecks posted:my tastes go far beyond Square-Enix. *He said as he swirled his glass of brandy and flitted through his ever extensive library/parlour of JRPGs.* Xenoblade was probably considered a "revival" because gently caress all came out for the Wii that was like it and the Xeno series was a pile of poo poo before that.
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Aug 25, 2015 16:05
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punk rebel ecks posted:Really? I didn't experience that at all. I found the opposite to be true. I had to do a little more side quests than I was comfortable with in order to be properly leveled. The complaint that Xenoblade makes it super-easy to overlevel is a real common one. One of the common pieces of advice you see for it is actually just "play the game, ignore the sidequests, you'll still get 60 hours out of the game and the combat system is more fun then." A few people in the Wii thread have mentioned the game got a lot more fun when they started to do that too. punk rebel ecks posted:You can combine lower level gems to craft higher level gems. And many items enemies drop can be used for future quests or (especially) to sell to caravans. And it isn't all too uncommon to find enemies that drop weapons that are more powerful than your current one. Yeah, but due to the balance in Gems, you're not going to use the vast majority of them since gem slots are so limited. When you only have 1-2 slots you're better off stacking powerful ones that manage aggro or whatnot than Elemental Stealth or whatnot. In fact most of the gems I'd consider worthwhile I got from elemental depots. (Though Art Stealth was more common as an enemy drop I think.). Since there's not actually any way to combine separate gems the crappier gems are mostly just used for fodder so you can build up the level of gems you want to use as close to 99 as possible so you can get Heat/Super Heat. Items are used for quest but that kinda goes back to the problem of quests being crappy and the fact that the loot is randomized means that you have to grind to get some of the items you need. You do get better weapons but that is what I meant by 90% vendor trash. For every improvement there's like 90 pieces of junk. Which is fine, it's how the genre works, but it isn't very exciting. punk rebel ecks posted:Well it certainly is unique to the genre at least because it blends in a lot of JRPG and console sensibilities to the existing MMO formula. Such as adding the pot crafting system and, most importantly, having semi-realtime combat tuned to console controls and a single player experience. Like I said, I can't really agree. Like it isn't even the only one of those games on the Wii. (The Last Story is also there and I'd argue does some things better than Xenoblade does even, though I think Xenoblade is overall the superior product.) I also feel that Xenoblade is missing things that I think it should have borrowed, like the Gambit system from FFXII.
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Aug 25, 2015 16:15
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No product is perfect, but a game typically qualifies as good in my eyes if I can make a short and distinct list of relatively shallow issues that could be fixed to make it amazing. In Xenoblade's case, this would be: - more control over party AI, or barring that smarter automatic AI (looking at you, Shulk and Melia - or hell, even Sharla doesn't pre-emptively cool off her gun) - several overhauls to the sidequest system (making it easier to track down NPCs you've met, reduce their impact on the experience curve, more fast travel points in Alcamoth, have a smaller number of interesting quests like the Tyrea one or the Nopon drug trade rather than a larger number of glorified bear rear end collection) - tweak the impact of level on the game's difficulty and/or have stronger experience rubber-banding, at least when you're overleveled (people like to play underleveled for challenge, so weaker rubber-banding when underleveled can be okay) --- alternative solution: have the ability to opt out of experience gains - rebalance the gem system, perhaps along the lines of the skill link system, giving you more slots but a given sort of slot can only be used for a given sort of gem, like stat-ups or aggro management or debuff resists or applying statuses to enemies, which would allow for less potent gems to still have their uses - fix whatever sort of unoptimized coding is involved in the game's inventory management because holy poo poo that gets bogged down as your inventory fills up (also make it loving remember how you sorted it) - take a page from Tales games and give you more control over what you do and do not want carried over to NG+, in terms of things like levels and powered-up abilities and experience gain rates And yes, that's not an insubstantial list of issues. But the core gameplay and story and characterization are all solid, so these are more along the lines of tweaks and fixes. It's the sort of stuff where, if Xenoblade were an MMO (or hell, any sort of game with updates), you could see them tackling in game patches.
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Aug 25, 2015 17:53
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The sidequest system would have been far less annoying if the mini map showed all questgivers at a larger radius. You had to be very close to them to see them on the map, if I remember right. Being able to find them all at any time would have been good too. It felt like if you wanted to max affinity with a town, you had to comb it at multiples times of day. Not just once, but each time affinity advanced. My big hopes for xcx which I haven't seen confirmed or denied yet: 1. Easy pickup for sidequest. 2. More sidequests that are part of long and engaging chains, like Vil's examples. 3. An engaging cast with personal quests and fun banter/dialogue. If we get those, I don't care how different it is from xc. xedo fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Aug 25, 2015 |
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Aug 25, 2015 19:11
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I found a video of an import player going over the quest systems in the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVuPmSq1aAU The minimap appears more effective at helping you locate nearby characters that will give quests, and you can see the indicator above their heads even before they're close enough to show up on the map. In addition, I'm pretty sure that none of the quests you get from directly speaking to people will be of the "get asked to collect six bear asses, complete, get piddly reward, done" variety. Those kinds of quests, now called "Simple Quests", are all relegated to a request board in Blade Tower. Heart-to-Hearts reappear, but are now quests as well, called "Kizuna Quests". Unfortunately I've heard that there's still the issue where building the required affinity with other party members takes a while, which is pretty dumb. Not a big deal if you just focus on the characters you like, but annoying for anybody crazy enough to go for 100%. e: Another interesting detail is that Squad Quests (the ones that unlock by completing timed ingame challenges with the cooperation of your up to 30-member Union) will scale your character's levels up or down depending on the mission so as to maintain a consistent level of difficulty within them. Though this doesn't affect your available arts or their levels, so you'll still be over/under-powered to an extent. Motto fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Aug 25, 2015 |
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Aug 25, 2015 19:47
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xedo posted:My big hopes for xcx which I haven't seen confirmed or denied yet: 1. No. In fact, it's worse in some ways. A fair number of in-city quests require you to go to a specific location, and with a specific cast. If someone's missing, you have to go find them with no instructions on where they are (I relied on JP strategy sites). 2. They have those. Not sure if there are more, but they're the usual fetch quests. 3. Not really. Your character doesn't talk. (It's like the horribly bland and generic White Knight Chronicles that way.) You don't get to be Shulk--you're basically along for the ride while the white-haired girl gets all the praise. Oh, and in addition to the Simple Quests, the ones you get directly from people also tend to be fetch quests. I'm still playing it, but more out of inertia. It does get a whole lot better when you get the hard-to-drive mechs (but I hate paying for repairs on robots when they break--and they do that if you fall into an abyss, etc.). When work gets busy next month, I'll have to ditch this, and I'm not sure if I will bother to resume when the work craziness settles down. Doug Dinsdale fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Aug 25, 2015 |
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Aug 25, 2015 20:08
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Inflammatory posted:
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Aug 25, 2015 20:29
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Doug Dinsdale posted:3. Not really. Your character doesn't talk. (It's like the horribly bland and generic White Knight Chronicles that way.) You don't get to be Shulk--you're basically along for the ride while the white-haired girl gets all the praise. people who complain about this are morons because like 90% of voiced jrpg protagonists are either whiny and obnoxious or even more bland than a silent blank slate.
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Aug 25, 2015 21:33
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actually silent protagonists are awful
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Aug 25, 2015 21:35
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i disagree, but then again i have an imagination.
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Aug 25, 2015 21:38
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I never understood the 'imagination' argument. that works for an entire silent party but a completely silent protagonist isn't allowing you to fill in the gaps. Either characters are talking at your protagonist and making assumptions about what is being said (which defeating any 'imagination' point) or they're talking at a secondary character who is effectively the protagonist's mouthpiece and so it's no different than having a voiced protagonist except it isn't the 'main' guy.
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Aug 25, 2015 21:41
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In Chrono Trigger, the protagonist is silent, but will do anything and everything to help out the very pretty girl he met that day. Including saving the world. I think we can all relate to that.
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Aug 25, 2015 21:44
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ImpAtom posted:I never understood the 'imagination' argument. that works for an entire silent party but a completely silent protagonist isn't allowing you to fill in the gaps. Either characters are talking at your protagonist and making assumptions about what is being said (which defeating any 'imagination' point) or they're talking at a secondary character who is effectively the protagonist's mouthpiece and so it's no different than having a voiced protagonist except it isn't the 'main' guy. I suppose it varies from person to person on how easily they can take the assumption that they are the player character, or will note the small details that say otherwise. Even in games like Pokemon, where you have 'your' adventure and 'your' team, you can still be assigned parents, a hometown, maybe a childhood friend or two - nevermind whether or not the player themselves comes to like them. A game like Xenoblade - or its sequel - just feels odd though, with the level of world building, but then limiting the degree to which the player character can be truly integrated in that, by giving them little or no distinctive character.
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Aug 25, 2015 21:48
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If it's a silent protagonist like in Fallout or whatever, where it's "me" in a fantastical setting choosing how to reply, sure no voices and no speech text boxes. If I'm controlling some character with a given name (and in theory a personality and backstory) then I like her/him having speech/text rather than being :grey: and being nothing more than a soulless vessel for me to pilot around. Chrono Trigger managed to pull it off but that takes one of hell of a crew to pull off and I don't think it translates as well to a post-2D post-sprite era.
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Aug 25, 2015 21:50
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jrpg protagonists should be seen and not heard. also this protagonist is customized, so i'm pretty sure it's supposed to be "you".
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Aug 25, 2015 21:50
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you can do customized protagonists and still give them voices and personality
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Aug 25, 2015 22:47
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Inflammatory posted:
This chart alone has enough interesting games on it to be worth getting the system. Mario Maker, Mario/Luigi U, LoZ Heroes, Star Fox, Xenoblade, and Mario Tennis? Yes please.  Every time I watch a video of Xenoblade X it really screams "we want to make an MMO but can't (yet)" in the design. OTOH I'd be totally down for some open world Xenoblade multiplayer combat.
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Aug 25, 2015 22:53
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There's a difference between silent protagonists who never say a word and silent protagonists with text boxes to respond with.
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Aug 25, 2015 23:21
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Evil Fluffy posted:This chart alone has enough interesting games on it to be worth getting the system. Mario Maker, Mario/Luigi U, LoZ Heroes, Star Fox, Xenoblade, and Mario Tennis? Yes please. Everyone who played the mario tennis game said it sucked rear end if that helps
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Aug 25, 2015 23:27
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Oh god now i'm getting a White Knight Chronicles vibe from this game. MMO style gameplay, giant mechs, SIlent avatar character who will probably be ignored for most of the game in cutscenes.
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Aug 25, 2015 23:44
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Inflammatory posted:people who complain about this are morons because like 90% of voiced jrpg protagonists are either whiny and obnoxious or even more bland than a silent blank slate. Yeah, I get that, and pretty much agree (except for the moron part--I don't judge). But in XCX, I get feeling as if I'm a mute Igor who gets to approach strangers, and then hand off to the two girls who have to be in every major cutscene. It makes me feel like a bystander in my own adventure. I really wanted to like this game, too. I loved the hell out of XC (played both Wii and 3DS versions for several hundred hours each), but this just doesn't measure up except for being much, much prettier. I read a JP comment: "Has any Xeno title other than XC been any good? It's the exception. Lower your expectations."
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Aug 26, 2015 00:56
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How is the aspect of repopulating/changing Neo LA? If anything, that's what I'll be in X for. I really, really love stupid poo poo like the homestead in Assassin's Creed 3, or rebuilding Colony 6 where you get to build up this little community from nothing.
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Aug 26, 2015 00:59
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Inflammatory posted:jrpg protagonists should be seen and not heard. Massive end of game spoilers i guess Are you a robot?
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Aug 26, 2015 01:41
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I'm pretty much ready for a storyline I won't care for, but at least there's bigger prettier places to explore, an L.A. to fill up with people and mechas to kill giant awesome monsters with. Sacrifice "I'm Really Feeling It" for more gameplay on the world.
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Aug 26, 2015 01:51
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Takahashi fans are used to failure and disappointment. The question is whether it'll fail by being a crazy flaming trainwreck like Xenosaga or by being mediocre and forgettable like Soma Bringer.
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Aug 26, 2015 03:02
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Baal posted:Massive end of game spoilers i guess More like early game
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