|
Ofaloaf posted:I miss the colonizing from V1/Ricky. You got to build something like 4 different sorts of colonial posts that eventually coalesced together into a proper colonial territory, and those posts added a neat bit of flavor, what with the missionaries and all that. V2 colonization was just mainly about laying down a national focus and that was that. It was changed in HoD expansion, now you need to spend colonial points (which are finite and depend on your naval power) to colonize, and up to three nations can contest one territory which can lead to a dispute, and ultimately war.
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 17:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 01:13 |
|
|
The best thing about Vicky 2 is you can cause native rebels to show up, who will then kill something like 90% of all non-native pops in any territory they seize. As a foreign power you could declare war on the US, prevent the US from defeating the rebels, and help escort them into wiping out most of the US population. Chinese immigrants will come in so fast that they'll quickly become the ethnic majority in a country which has almost no of its primary or accepted cultures present. The resulting turmoil just tears the US apart, allowing you to swoop in and grab various states. Takes a lot of work (and some save scumming for when the rebels marched into a province I was in) to pull off but drat was it satisfying.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:19
|
|
|
Lassiez-Faire works pretty well in V2 if you build up the first few factories yourself. I do remember my first westernized Persia game where I went Lassiez-Faire almost the whole game and it was nonstop factory expansion. The sound effects nearly killed me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:22
|
|
|
Disco Infiva posted:It was changed in HoD expansion, now you need to spend colonial points (which are finite and depend on your naval power) to colonize, and up to three nations can contest one territory which can lead to a dispute, and ultimately war.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:22
|
|
|
What happens when the Chinese become the majority? Is it really such a problem for the US? I thought at least one of their major parties had Full Citizenship.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:22
|
|
|
Is there a good tutorial for Vicky 2 somewhere because I've tried to play it a few times and still don't understand how it works at all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:26
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:What happens when the Chinese become the majority? Is it really such a problem for the US? I thought at least one of their major parties had Full Citizenship. If I remember right, the uprisings occur early enough that it is unlikely a full citizenship party is in control. Pretty much no country is going to be able to handle less than 10% of its population being primary/accepted culture. The pool of military pops at that point becomes extremely small.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:28
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:What happens when the Chinese become the majority? Is it really such a problem for the US? I thought at least one of their major parties had Full Citizenship. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:31
|
|
|
Koramei posted:Is there a good tutorial for Vicky 2 somewhere because I've tried to play it a few times and still don't understand how it works at all. There's one in the LP archives about how to play as Brazil. I used it to learn to play as the UPCA. EDIT: Here it is. http://lparchive.org/Victoria-II/
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:33
|
|
|
I know it's fairly historical but I never liked that in V2 all social and political reforms are like disasters that your government has to be forced into. You have to run your country like poo poo and get people mad in order to have any progress. You can never implement health care or industrial safety standards just because you care about your people. The social reforms don't seem to actually do you much good, they just cost your government money to administer and calm your angry population down a bit. Few of the reforms seemed to have much noticeable positive effect on your country.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:42
|
|
|
Incidentally, speaking of V2, does anyone have any suggestions for a mostly peaceful industrial run? I'm more used to heavy colonization and war to increase resources and markets, but it might be interesting to focus on hyper-efficient industry and spheres of influence instead, with perhaps just a little light colonization.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:46
|
|
|
Tomn posted:Incidentally, speaking of V2, does anyone have any suggestions for a mostly peaceful industrial run? I'm more used to heavy colonization and war to increase resources and markets, but it might be interesting to focus on hyper-efficient industry and spheres of influence instead, with perhaps just a little light colonization. Switzerland
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
Tomn posted:Incidentally, speaking of V2, does anyone have any suggestions for a mostly peaceful industrial run? I'm more used to heavy colonization and war to increase resources and markets, but it might be interesting to focus on hyper-efficient industry and spheres of influence instead, with perhaps just a little light colonization. Sweden/Denmark -> Scandinavia. You can peacefully annex other Nordic states, you have relatively low population but the highest literacy in the world, making teching very easy. You don't need to wage war at all, but be careful of Prussia (Schleswig-Holstein) and Russia (being Russia).
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 18:58
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I know it's fairly historical but I never liked that in V2 all social and political reforms are like disasters that your government has to be forced into. You have to run your country like poo poo and get people mad in order to have any progress. You can never implement health care or industrial safety standards just because you care about your people. The social reforms don't seem to actually do you much good, they just cost your government money to administer and calm your angry population down a bit. Few of the reforms seemed to have much noticeable positive effect on your country. The population growth from healthcare is pretty powerful. What bothers me a little is that literacy was the same for all POPs in a country, for the most part. No matter the country, the upper class should be highly literate, with the lower class much less literate (Depending on how developed the country is). It allows aristocrats to become capitalists much easier, which should make sense. Eskaton fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Aug 25, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 19:20
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I know it's fairly historical but I never liked that in V2 all social and political reforms are like disasters that your government has to be forced into. You have to run your country like poo poo and get people mad in order to have any progress. You can never implement health care or industrial safety standards just because you care about your people. The social reforms don't seem to actually do you much good, they just cost your government money to administer and calm your angry population down a bit. Few of the reforms seemed to have much noticeable positive effect on your country.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 19:22
|
|
|
zedprime posted:The old world has a vested interest in keeping reforms off the books to keep the budget balanced for incredibly dense populations. The new world has a vested interest in passing reforms to poach immigrants to actually live in your wide tracts of land. Right but a lot of those reforms are actually good for society top to bottom, they result in a richer more productive population or save the state money in the long run. It's not wasteful spending to placate the angry masses, it's investing in your society. But that's just one of the many places the designer's political biases were at work in the game's systems. It also fairly accurately reflects the thinking of those in power in the era so I guess it's suitable, I just always felt straight-jacketed and on a particular historical and ideological rail in Vicky 2.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 19:33
|
|
|
Koramei posted:Is there a good tutorial for Vicky 2 somewhere because I've tried to play it a few times and still don't understand how it works at all. Disco Infiva posted:Sweden/Denmark -> Scandinavia. You can peacefully annex other Nordic states, you have relatively low population but the highest literacy in the world, making teching very easy. You don't need to wage war at all, but be careful of Prussia (Schleswig-Holstein) and Russia (being Russia). Incidentally I personally found Sweden to be the best starter nation for getting into Vicky 2, for basically all the above reasons.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 19:40
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Right but a lot of those reforms are actually good for society top to bottom, they result in a richer more productive population or save the state money in the long run. It's not wasteful spending to placate the angry masses, it's investing in your society. But that's just one of the many places the designer's political biases were at work in the game's systems. It also fairly accurately reflects the thinking of those in power in the era so I guess it's suitable, I just always felt straight-jacketed and on a particular historical and ideological rail in Vicky 2. Games are bad at modelling folly. Knowing how effective Keynesianism is for keeping a manufacturing economy going, you know in 1835 exactly how to structure your society in ways that contemporary people didn't. You've got to misrepresent the reforms if you want to have them play out in a way that is at all true to the history.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 19:44
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I just always felt straight-jacketed and on a particular historical and ideological rail in Vicky 2. That's because social democracy wins Vic 2. It seems like weird game design to actively prevent you from going where you want, but it makes sense that you can't transform Tsarist Russia into something like modern Scandinavia..
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 20:37
|
|
|
Transmetropolitan posted:I'll never get why for the life of me Victoria Revolutions was better to play than Victoria 2. probably because it's interactive, and victoria two is not
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 21:23
|
|
|
V1 economy was better because you could actually understand it and manipulate it. V2 economy was just a black box that you hoped did what you wanted.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 23:15
|
|
|
V for Vegas posted:V1 economy was better because you could actually understand it and manipulate it. V2 economy was just a black box that you hoped did what you wanted. You can manipulate v2's economy. You could control revs economy. Which is why it sucks.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 23:28
|
|
|
I feel like the heavy mechanics at the heart of Vicky II – the POPs, factories, and economy – are all simulation for its own sake. The simulations are mostly too complex to interact with (unless you follow specific unintuitive rules) and don't produce realistic dynamics but by god they simulate every household in the world. The whole design makes no gameplay sense!
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 23:38
|
|
|
If any game merits complex systems you can only partially interact with its a Victorian era grand strategy game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 25, 2015 23:51
|
|
|
V for Vegas posted:V1 economy was better because you could actually understand it and manipulate it. V2 economy was just a black box that you hoped did what you wanted. It's easy to get if you read the dev diaries and odd dev posts on the forum. That's good game UI design.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 00:14
|
|
|
Eskaton posted:It's easy to get if you read the dev diaries and odd dev posts on the forum. In V2's defense nobody really understands the real worlds economy either  but I really only came here to point out that I have a lot of respect for Thatcher for saving the British economy from crybabies. podcat fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Aug 26, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 07:27
|
|
|
podcat posted:but I really only came here to point out that I have a lot of respect for Thatcher for saving the British economy from crybabies.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 08:15
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:CK2 at launch was CK1, but pretty and accessible. The patches between launch and Old Gods changed the game a lot! At the time CK2+ and EU3+ were very popular - Wiz was influencing the direction of both EU and CK quite a while before he was hired. EU3+ was only ever modestly popular at most. CK2+ I intentionally went for making the most popular CK2 mod.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 08:29
|
|
|
Wiz posted:EU3+ was only ever modestly popular at most. CK2+ I intentionally went for making the most popular CK2 mod. And here I always thought your philosophy was "I need to make this game harder" CK2+ was kind of a mod for spergs.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 08:34
|
|
|
Demiurge4 posted:And here I always thought your philosophy was "I need to make this game harder" CK2+ was kind of a mod for spergs. CK2+ wasn't primarily about making the game harder, it was about making the game *balanced* so it would continue to be challenging after you grew to a certain size. That's why I made counts and dukes more powerful, and added things like the efficient demesne bonus, while making life harder for Kings and Emperors. I apply a lot of the same principles to EU4, so I guess EU4 is a game for spergs then? The part about making it the most popular mod was just going in early and paying a great deal of attention to the quality of the mod, since I knew the other modders would be throwing every random thing they could find into theirs.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 09:10
|
|
|
Pakled posted:Also, can't you manually set trade targets in Vicky 2 as well? I think you can, at least, it's just that most people don't bother because the trade AI in Vicky 2 is actually decent, unlike in Ricky where it is incredibly stupid and will bankrupt you. You can, yeah. It can be useful to stockpile material for things you want to spam out, like railways, especially when you are not near the top of the buying order so they don't need to wait for the market to cough up. Baronjutter posted:Right but a lot of those reforms are actually good for society top to bottom, they result in a richer more productive population or save the state money in the long run. It's not wasteful spending to placate the angry masses, it's investing in your society. But that's just one of the many places the designer's political biases were at work in the game's systems. It also fairly accurately reflects the thinking of those in power in the era so I guess it's suitable, I just always felt straight-jacketed and on a particular historical and ideological rail in Vicky 2. I joined after V2 came out so I was never in the planning (I think working on the 1.3 patch was my first task here though), but I think reflecting the era was the more important point. Plus, from a gameplay PoV, if reforms are just great you have no incentive not to enact everything ASAP. Sure, the Upperhouse can limit you, but there's no real political opposition to them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 09:29
|
|
|
podcat posted:In V2's defense nobody really understands the real worlds economy either Who saved the Swedish economy from crybabies? Oh that's right, no-one.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 09:43
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Right but a lot of those reforms are actually good for society top to bottom, they result in a richer more productive population or save the state money in the long run. It's not wasteful spending to placate the angry masses, it's investing in your society. But that's just one of the many places the designer's political biases were at work in the game's systems. It also fairly accurately reflects the thinking of those in power in the era so I guess it's suitable, I just always felt straight-jacketed and on a particular historical and ideological rail in Vicky 2. V2 in this regard is all about the experience of fighting your own political system to get things done. If the bias is at work here then it's clearly missed the mark; in V2, social democracy is hard to achieve because your people are dumb and your elites are spiteful, but is inarguably superior because of the effects of the policies. Which seems pretty true to life to me but isn't very Thatcher.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 09:51
|
|
|
Wiz posted:CK2+ wasn't primarily about making the game harder, it was about making the game *balanced* so it would continue to be challenging after you grew to a certain size. That's why I made counts and dukes more powerful, and added things like the efficient demesne bonus, while making life harder for Kings and Emperors. I apply a lot of the same principles to EU4, so I guess EU4 is a game for spergs then? Oh I didn't mean that as an attack. I stopped playing CK2 vanilla and used your exclusively because it made the game what I wanted it to be. I like to think of vanilla as an easier introduction to the real game which is CK2+.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 10:48
|
|
|
Demiurge4 posted:Oh I didn't mean that as an attack. I stopped playing CK2 vanilla and used your exclusively because it made the game what I wanted it to be. I like to think of vanilla as an easier introduction to the real game which is CK2+. Fair enough, I just kind of don't agree with the idea that CK2+ was 'for spergs', since its aims were gameplay enhancement rather than 'historical accurate byzantiny', and I do think people appreciate a balanced game more than they perhaps think they do.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 12:05
|
|
|
Wiz posted:Fair enough, I just kind of don't agree with the idea that CK2+ was 'for spergs', since its aims were gameplay enhancement rather than 'historical accurate byzantiny', and I do think people appreciate a balanced game more than they perhaps think they do. I think it also greatly depended on when the person played CK2+. When you still managed it, it was the way you describe it, but afterwards when others from the Paradox forums took up the reigns, it got really bloated and included a lot of really dumb things (chief in my mind for some reason is the incorporation of that mod that localizes every country's name on the map into that native language's name for the country, so if you were playing just plain England, you'd see das Heilige Römische Reich and Sverige and Polska and Βυζάντιον and poo poo on your map).
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 12:40
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:V2 in this regard is all about the experience of fighting your own political system to get things done And that was one of the major problems right here. If in other games you are a abstract concept (in CK2 you are a "dynasty", in the others you are what could be called "the spirit of the nation" I guess), V2 had tremendous restrictions on what could be done because it was much more simulation than game. You had to struggle with it by "playing bad" in order to get some desired outcomes (reforms for instance) EU IV has something similar when you let rebels win either to become a new government or a revolutionary country, but that is the only occasion I can think of.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 13:09
|
|
|
Drone posted:I think it also greatly depended on when the person played CK2+. When you still managed it, it was the way you describe it, but afterwards when others from the Paradox forums took up the reigns, it got really bloated and included a lot of really dumb things (chief in my mind for some reason is the incorporation of that mod that localizes every country's name on the map into that native language's name for the country, so if you were playing just plain England, you'd see das Heilige Römische Reich and Sverige and Polska and Βυζάντιον and poo poo on your map). Oh yeah, that's true too. I actually went back to it recently and it's quite good now, only really dumb thing left is the Waylit system where you win every war instantly by assaulting the enemy capital.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 13:25
|
|
|
Transmetropolitan posted:And that was one of the major problems right here. If in other games you are a abstract concept (in CK2 you are a "dynasty", in the others you are what could be called "the spirit of the nation" I guess), V2 had tremendous restrictions on what could be done because it was much more simulation than game. You had to struggle with it by "playing bad" in order to get some desired outcomes (reforms for instance) You didn't need to "play bad" to do so though. You could also do it by riding the waves of liberal and socialist fervor as those movements run their course over the period of the game and push consciousness and literacy. That was certainly the case on the particular versions of V2 I played. You can short cut certain things by "playing bad" in the same way you have to "short cut" your way to a Revolutionary Republic in EUIV.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 17:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 01:13 |
|
|
The French Revolution was actually the result of metagaming.
|
|
#
?
Aug 26, 2015 17:07
|
|