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Alacron posted:Also, didn't the Silver Age have a weird thing where Supes would refer to the Kents as his "foster parents" or something? I remember this weird undercurrent of, "Yeah they're nice and all but they're not his real parents" that pissed me off. It's a weird thing about the Silver Age, he is definitely way more Superman than Clark in those stories. It's all about "Clark Kent is really Superman" than "Superman is really Clark Kent". I don't like it either, but I guess it makes sense because those stories were always pretty immature in their approach to things and the writers figured that's what kid's cared about more then.
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Aug 26, 2015 05:00
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Travis343 posted:It's kind of the opposite of that, Diana doesn't balk, she calls him Clark out of habit and he stares her down until she calls him "Kal". He's withdrawn because Lois and his parents have died, and he's shut out his human side because of the pain. Being human means dealing with death and loss, and he can't handle it - he says "They're earthlings, they die." He doesn't want to be Clark if it means feeling their loss. Kingdom Come was so drat good.
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Aug 26, 2015 05:01
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I don't know how they used it in the very early comics, but the Fleischer cartoons specifically said "disguised as mild mannered reporter Clark Kent," and that predates the Silver Age by a good chunk of time, so very early on there was an idea that he's Superman and Clark Kent is the costume. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQgMqf8tV6Q
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Aug 26, 2015 05:08
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Travis343 posted:It's kind of the opposite of that, Diana doesn't balk, she calls him Clark out of habit and he stares her down until she calls him "Kal". He's withdrawn because Lois and his parents have died, and he's shut out his human side because of the pain. Being human means dealing with death and loss, and he can't handle it - he says "They're earthlings, they die." He doesn't want to be Clark if it means feeling their loss. And yet the first thing Norman says while trying to reach him in the UN at the end, the very first thing? "Clark?" God Kingdom Come is such an expertly written book. You could teach classes on comic writing with it and nothing else.
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Aug 26, 2015 05:15
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Skwirl posted:I don't know how they used it in the very early comics, but the Fleischer cartoons specifically said "disguised as mild mannered reporter Clark Kent," and that predates the Silver Age by a good chunk of time, so very early on there was an idea that he's Superman and Clark Kent is the costume. Right, the Golden Age too. It's worth pointing out, also, in the first issue of Action Comics, he was put in an orphanage after being found by "passing motorists"(ahaha, a time when "drives cars" was a noteworthy distinction). WickedHate fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 05:16
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Yeah, pretty much everything we've been describing as the core of the character is very much post-Silver Age, but the characterisation has stuck for at least thirty years now. Beyond that, emphasising Superman's humanity makes for a much better character, and a much better story. It's the times when Clark was nothing but a disguise that stories have fallen into the "nothing can challenge him, how can we even make this interesting?" trap.
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Aug 26, 2015 05:18
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Chaos Hippy posted:Yeah, pretty much everything we've been describing as the core of the character is very much post-Silver Age, but the characterisation has stuck for at least thirty years now. Beyond that, emphasising Superman's humanity makes for a much better character, and a much better story. It's the times when Clark was nothing but a disguise that stories have fallen into the "nothing can challenge him, how can we even make this interesting?" trap. I don't know, the Fleischer cartoons are pretty bad rear end. Edit: I do like the modern version where he's the moral center of DC, but don't discount the old stuff. Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 05:19
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Chaos Hippy posted:
TAG ME IN COACH Action Comics #840: Superman got his superpowers back after being drained for a whole year after Infinite Crisis. Right in time for Lex Luthor to unleash a giant attack on Metropolis which Superman has to end by flying straight through a ship made of kryptonite, re-draining him.    Up Up & Away is still to this day my favorite Superman story
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Aug 26, 2015 05:25
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That is exactly what I was hoping to see. You done good, TwoPair. "Up, Up, and Away" is the closest thing I can think of to a perfect modern Superman story.
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Aug 26, 2015 05:31
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I've loved these last couple pages of talk about Superman. He's easily my favorite superhero, and for pretty much all the reasons everyone's already been over. It isn't the powers, it isn't the super. It's the man. That kind of person, that kind of faith and belief in the innate goodness of humanity, is something I think everyone should aspire towards. And it's great seeing people acknowledge it, it seems like so many people focus on the wrong parts of the character.
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Aug 26, 2015 05:36
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Travis343 posted:It's kind of the opposite of that, Diana doesn't balk, she calls him Clark out of habit and he stares her down until she calls him "Kal". You're right, I phrased it poorly. I more meant that she thinks of him as Clark, and it takes this awful trauma for him to not identify with his human side, to the point where he doesnt allow his oldest friends to call him his human name. Choco1980 posted:And yet the first thing Norman says while trying to reach him in the UN at the end, the very first thing? "Clark?" Kingdom Come, along with Dark Knight Returns, showed up in one of my senior year literature courses. Superheroes illustrate archetypes just as well as Greek heroes, and incorporate a bunch of modern crap (we spent almost a whole session on Joker calling Batman "darling").
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Aug 26, 2015 06:32
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Skwirl posted:I don't know, the Fleischer cartoons are pretty bad rear end. The Fleischer cartoons rule, but they're very much Golden Age "leap tall buildings" Superman. He's nowhere near as powerful as he is depicted later on so it's easier to come up with a threatening challenge. He fights a lot of gangsters in those cartoons. And Dick Grayson is the moral center of DC. 
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Aug 26, 2015 13:27
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DarkCrawler posted:Basically, Superman is Clark Kent, not Kal-El. I hate it when people in comics call him by his Kryptonian name and he accepts it. He got that name when he was a day old. It's like saying an adopted kid is defined by where he is born, not where he was raised in.
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Aug 26, 2015 15:11
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Alacron posted:Likewise, this is why I hate stuff like Superman worshipping Kryptonian gods and studying Kryptonian martial arts. It's trying to make Superman more alien just so it can... I don't know, make him a unique special snowflake? He's a man/being who's former culture was utterly destroyed. He has so little of his old culture left, he wants to learn more of it. Maybe take it up a little. Just to have it. Just so it survives just a little, even if it ends up merged with other things(Like equating Rao with God). Because he can't just let it die out. It doesn't make him less human. If anything, that's the human reaction. I mean, a Fortress of Solitude might be big and fancy and 'Oh, he's got lots of it left!' but in the end, it still isn't. I dunno. I see where you're coming from, and it's fine and true. But I also see "The man has NOTHING. It's GONE, so completely that there's not even history books to be re-written. He dies, that's it. Gone for good. That's gotta be something he thinks about." Bloodly fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 15:51
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Travis343 posted:And Dick Grayson is the moral center of DC. DC's in trouble, then.
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Aug 26, 2015 16:22
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Lurdiak posted:DC's in trouble, then. I thought that was common knowledge.
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Aug 26, 2015 16:29
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Isn't DC's current depiction of morality best summarized as "good or evil, arm breaking's fair game" anyway?
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Aug 26, 2015 16:54
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Bloodly posted:He's a man/being who's former culture was utterly destroyed. He has so little of his old culture left, he wants to learn more of it. Maybe take it up a little. Just to have it. Just so it survives just a little, even if it ends up merged with other things(Like equating Rao with God). Because he can't just let it die out. It doesn't make him less human. If anything, that's the human reaction. I mean, a Fortress of Solitude might be big and fancy and 'Oh, he's got lots of it left!' but in the end, it still isn't. Isn't there a Krypton city that got shrunk and stuck in a bottle somewhere?
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Aug 26, 2015 17:15
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ElTipejoLoco posted:Isn't DC's current depiction of morality best summarized as "good or evil, arm breaking's fair game" anyway? Arm ripping Pureauthor posted:Isn't there a Krypton city that got shrunk and stuck in a bottle somewhere? That is Kandor.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:18
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Nice to see so many people still like a good Superman story. 
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Aug 26, 2015 17:32
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When I was a kid Superman was about the most boring superhero around. So they sent Muhammad Ali to SMASH HIS FACE IN.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:32
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Dick Trauma posted:When I was a kid Superman was about the most boring superhero around. So they sent Muhammad Ali to SMASH HIS FACE IN. 
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Aug 26, 2015 18:43
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:I've loved these last couple pages of talk about Superman. He's easily my favorite superhero, and for pretty much all the reasons everyone's already been over. It isn't the powers, it isn't the super. It's the man. That kind of person, that kind of faith and belief in the innate goodness of humanity, is something I think everyone should aspire towards. And it's great seeing people acknowledge it, it seems like so many people focus on the wrong parts of the character. It took me way too long to reach this same conclusion. "Superman's lame. He can't be beaten, he's too strong. He's boring. He's a goody-two-shoes. He's a symbol of cutesy, home spun middle America, aw shucks and apple pie. The fake America, of my father's childhood, that never existed." And I don't think I was alone in that way of thinking. I don't think he'll ever be my favorite, but I like him more now than I ever did. And coming from any other character, that saccharine, smiling "everything will be better" mindset would be pandering, and overly optimistic and fake. But with Superman, it works, because he's sincere. He really, truely wants everyone to be safe and happy. I don't have a panel, but hopefully a badass story will be penance enough http://mentalfloss.com/article/23157/how-superman-defeated-ku-klux-klan
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Aug 26, 2015 18:59
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Did Ali have kryptonite gloves or something?
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Aug 26, 2015 19:00
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Minarchist posted:Did Ali have kryptonite gloves or something? No, he's just that good.
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Aug 26, 2015 19:01
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Minarchist posted:Did Ali have kryptonite gloves or something? Red sun-lamp, I think.
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Aug 26, 2015 19:01
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flosofl posted:Red sun-lamp, I think. Its taking place on another planet that has a Red Sun and Ali is the greatest.
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Aug 26, 2015 19:24
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Evil Mastermind posted:Called "Vigilante"! "Vigilante" is a name with history in the DCU, though, so that's fair. Did he have a cowboy theme?
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Aug 26, 2015 20:04
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Redeye Flight posted:"Vigilante" is a name with history in the DCU, though, so that's fair. Did he have a cowboy theme? He only took the name because Barbra Gordon called him a vigilante.
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Aug 26, 2015 20:11
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Dick Trauma posted:When I was a kid Superman was about the most boring superhero around. So they sent Muhammad Ali to SMASH HIS FACE IN. While Kurt Vonnegut Jr. (and everyone else) watches. 
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Aug 26, 2015 21:25
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It does make sense that if Superman didn't have his powers Ali would beat the poo poo out of him.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:35
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funtax posted:While Kurt Vonnegut Jr. (and everyone else) watches. So Superman is fighting on behalf of the Star Warriors? lol
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Aug 27, 2015 01:56
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Terrible Horse posted:So Superman is fighting on behalf of the Star Warriors? lol No the fight is to decide who will best represent the earth in a boxing match against the Star Warriors' champion. Basically, the semi-finals.
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Aug 27, 2015 02:53
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Lets Pickle posted:It does make sense that if Superman didn't have his powers Ali would beat the poo poo out of him. I always liked the idea that superman is actually pretty lovely at fighting
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Aug 27, 2015 05:13
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Beef Jerky Robot posted:I always liked the idea that superman is actually pretty lovely at fighting The comic had Ali training Superman
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Aug 27, 2015 05:17
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Beef Jerky Robot posted:I always liked the idea that superman is actually pretty lovely at fighting Superman fights dudes that are stronger than him all the time. He's not fancy by any stretch; pretty much a straightforward pugilist; but he's got some moves.
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Aug 27, 2015 05:19
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bobkatt013 posted:The comic had Ali training Superman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvY6YQH9kE4
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Aug 27, 2015 05:20
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Superman could pull off Nuts-To-Your-Fists style to devestating effect against normal humans.
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Aug 27, 2015 05:22
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Doesn't that comic end with Ali revealing he knows Superman's secret identity because it was one of the conditions for letting them use his likeness?
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Aug 27, 2015 09:30
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Chaos Hippy posted:Superman fights dudes that are stronger than him all the time. He's not fancy by any stretch; pretty much a straightforward pugilist; but he's got some moves. Reminds me of the final issue of Incorruptible. For those who don't know, it's a spinoff of Irredeemable (about a Superman archetype who snapped and went evil) starring Max Damage, a supervillain who tries to redeem himself and fill the superhero void that the Plutonian left behind. He's a street thug with the power of becoming increasingly stronger and more invulnerable the longer he's awake. The final scene has him in good spirits, telling people the story about the time he and Plutonian were in some kind of null field that turned off their powers and made them human. "I figure I have him dead to rights. He's relied too much on his strength all these years. Guy doesn't know the first thing about fighting. Then I wake up in an ambulance with a broken jaw. Guy punches like Tyson."
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Aug 27, 2015 15:22
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