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If you've got to the stage where you genuinely cannot tell the difference between quests from one game to another regardless of the similarities of the core mechanics then your level of engagement is so low you may as well be not playing it at all. Going "well, they're all fetch / kill / interact quests" is one step above "it's all just pressing buttons and moving the mouse" in terms of being able to make a value judgement on how good or bad the game is. I mean, Christ, you've basically just suggested that WoW's quests from vanilla release are pretty much identical to the Pandaria / WoD questing. They've the same base mechanics after all.
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Aug 26, 2015 19:33
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Thirsty Dog posted:If you've got to the stage where you genuinely cannot tell the difference between quests from one game to another regardless of the similarities of the core mechanics then your level of engagement is so low you may as well be not playing it at all. Going "well, they're all fetch / kill / interact quests" is one step above "it's all just pressing buttons and moving the mouse" in terms of being able to make a value judgement on how good or bad the game is. This is a valid point. The actual fetch/kill requirements for these quests are not the problem. It is everything else involving those quests which make or break the entertainment value. Considering most MMO quests have offered next to nothing beyond a block-o-text is why there is a such a stigma behind "fetch/kill" quests.
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Aug 26, 2015 19:48
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Verranicus posted:The problem was Wildstar quests had you collecting 30 or 50 of an item instead of 8 or 12. I haven't run into any of those yet, but that'd explain a lot about it; I'm still plowing through the teens, so if the horror story starts after that, then yeah. Thirsty Dog posted:If you've got to the stage where you genuinely cannot tell the difference between quests from one game to another regardless of the similarities of the core mechanics then your level of engagement is so low you may as well be not playing it at all. Going "well, they're all fetch / kill / interact quests" is one step above "it's all just pressing buttons and moving the mouse" in terms of being able to make a value judgement on how good or bad the game is. Xavier434 posted:This is a valid point. The actual fetch/kill requirements for these quests are not the problem. It is everything else involving those quests which make or break the entertainment value. Considering most MMO quests have offered next to nothing beyond a block-o-text is why there is a such a stigma behind "fetch/kill" quests. No, I understand that Vanilla questing was pretty much breadcrumbs shotgunned across the map, and starting with Cata on it tended to be a more fluid grouping of quests forming a story that you moved through stage by stage. I'm not ignorant of that at all, and I should rephrase what I said to say MODERN MMOs, since most will now group quests in a relatively intelligent manner and push you forward in stages. When you said technical differences, I thought we were getting into the poo poo about bunnies again, and I didn't see what the point of the behind the scenes poo poo would be in the enjoyment of the end user. Wildstar does the quest grouping and staging as well, in what I've experienced of the game, which surprised me because I had expected it to be on-par with old MMOs where you'd have five quests and they'd all be in different ends of the zone. But no, you guys are highlighting something that I am actually curious about. Beyond rewards given to you when you accept and complete the quest, including fluff, equipment, currency, or progress towards another zone, what differentiates quests in games? What makes a type of quest enjoyable in one game but not in another? Because they ARE essentially the same quests when you get down to it, but what makes a WoW kill quest more enjoyable than an FF14 one? Or whatever MMOs you want to use as an example. Am I just separating the quest mechanics from something you guys aren't? e: Mantees posted:Ah, here is the general MMO discussion thread!
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Aug 26, 2015 20:19
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Ah, here is the general MMO discussion thread!  But I wonder, I read a lot of complaints about the existing games, and praises towards defunct ones. Are you guys playing any MMOs at the moment?
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Aug 26, 2015 20:19
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John Dyne posted:But no, you guys are highlighting something that I am actually curious about. Beyond rewards given to you when you accept and complete the quest, including fluff, equipment, currency, or progress towards another zone, what differentiates quests in games? What makes a type of quest enjoyable in one game but not in another? Because they ARE essentially the same quests when you get down to it, but what makes a WoW kill quest more enjoyable than an FF14 one? Or whatever MMOs you want to use as an example. Am I just separating the quest mechanics from something you guys aren't? For me, here are a few things that I came up with in 60 seconds so don't consider this some form of complete list. These responses are also well beyond that of MMOs. 1. Does the quest make me feel more interested in and/or closer to the characters or world that I am involved in regardless of it being a main or side quest? This is huge and can be accomplished in many ways including better voice acting, facial expressions, camera angles, cut scenes, etc. I want to care about these characters. I want to care about the NPCs and the world's culture. I want to be interested in learning more about it through a quest system. I don't just want to grind tons of numbers. 2. Chained objectives that make sense rather than continuously cycling through collecting the quest, finishing one objective, and turning it in for a reward. This happens a lot now but they usually lack #1 above which hurts a lot. 3. Choices regarding how to go about achieving the objective. Even if those choices do not matter much to the story or my character's personality development this is still a lot more fun. It doesn't have to be Western RPG style. Delivering and interacting with choices can come in many shapes and sizes. 4. No barriers or competing in PvE. I am basically saying that I want GW2 style interaction with "quests" where anyone can join in and help complete with a solid system of level scaling. While not normally considered a "quest system" feature set, this aspect greatly impacts how much I enjoy the questing experience regardless of what quality that the quests actually are. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 20:45
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That's an awful lot of words no one is going to read, much less rethink their opinions on this lovely game based on them. But sure, keep going. I like the jokes you're inspiring.
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Aug 26, 2015 20:47
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John Dyne posted:I haven't run into any of those yet, but that'd explain a lot about it; I'm still plowing through the teens, so if the horror story starts after that, then yeah. It's going to get kind of lovely once you hit the ice area (Whitevale I think), then get better in the next zone, and then turn to absolute poo poo for the next zone. The endgame levelling zones aren't super grindy except for one joke quest that goons got super mad about, and then Crimson isle is right back to being a pile of poo poo. No idea about the stuff that came after launch.
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Aug 26, 2015 20:55
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Deki posted:It's going to get kind of lovely once you hit the ice area (Whitevale I think), then get better in the next zone, and then turn to absolute poo poo for the next zone. The endgame levelling zones aren't super grindy except for one joke quest that goons got super mad about, and then Crimson isle is right back to being a pile of poo poo. No idea about the stuff that came after launch. For the F2P transition we did go back and adjust a lot of the numbers that felt way too grindy for quests and the like (and Whitevale/Wilderrun were definitely in that list). And if people play the F2P beta and find quests that still feel too long, go ahead and report it. I realize I'm basically just talking to John Dyne here on that last bit, but hey. 
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Aug 26, 2015 21:08
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Mantees posted:Ah, here is the general MMO discussion thread! It helps a lot if you can revisit those old gems and remember why exactly you stopped playing them. They always play out better in your head. Poor CoX players. I can at least put UO or EQ up to my head and pull that trigger from time to time. Edit: ^^^^ Ahh, can't wait for the hardcore players to complain about tuning down the grind. Mayor McCheese fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 21:10
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Xavier434 posted:For me, here are a few things that I came up with in 60 seconds so don't consider this some form of complete list. These responses are also well beyond that of MMOs. Those make sense, and I don't usually consider 1 and 3 a part of the quests themselves in MMOs; atmospheric and world related things I more of consider as part of the world at large, with the quests just being a means to interact with the world rather than something that defines it. If the NPCs and the environments I'm thrust into don't really grip me then I don't expect the quests to, either, but I usually just back burner those concerns if I'm having fun with the skills or whatever. Part of it comes from a disconnect from playing WoW for so long and making alts to play with friends; I got to the point where I just simply didn't care to read any of the poo poo being said to me because my buddies were just taking all the quests and running off to hit things. It's a bad habit that's rubbed off into other games and unless the quest text is really prominent or heavily featured I don't tend to even give it a second glance. I like leveling up, I like getting new gear, I like getting new skills, and just generally I like getting stronger in MMOs. I expect more out of single player games than MMOs, though, so different standards. Cyster posted:For the F2P transition we did go back and adjust a lot of the numbers that felt way too grindy for quests and the like (and Whitevale/Wilderrun were definitely in that list). And if people play the F2P beta and find quests that still feel too long, go ahead and report it. Did you do anything in the starting areas? I had the free month from the Humble Bundle and it feels like the starting areas got some of the quests changed around; I mostly mean the Exile snowy area cause I haven't done the Aurin one on anyone.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:24
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John Dyne posted:Did you do anything in the starting areas? I had the free month from the Humble Bundle and it feels like the starting areas got some of the quests changed around; I mostly mean the Exile snowy area cause I haven't done the Aurin one on anyone. Yeah, we went over the leveling content in the whole game, pretty much. Some streamlining and adjustments of objectives, that sort of thing.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:38
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John Dyne posted:Those make sense, and I don't usually consider 1 and 3 a part of the quests themselves in MMOs; atmospheric and world related things I more of consider as part of the world at large, with the quests just being a means to interact with the world rather than something that defines it. If the NPCs and the environments I'm thrust into don't really grip me then I don't expect the quests to, either, but I usually just back burner those concerns if I'm having fun with the skills or whatever. I sort of regard these things as separate features as well but they are all a part of the same game and they compliment and and work with each other tremendously. For me, the quests are at the heart of the delivery system for the games lore, culture, and characters. Quests are not the only means of delivery for these things but they are so important that you can't really talk about one without the other when discussing quality. It isn't like developers do not understand this either. While some simply do not have the creative talent to do it well, it usually comes down the budget and time. MMOs are already really expensive as it is.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:49
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Wildstar had one quest where you got a hoverbike and got to mow down zombies with it, every other quest was awful but that one almost made up for it.
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Aug 26, 2015 22:11
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socialsecurity posted:Wildstar had one quest where you got a hoverbike and got to mow down zombies with it, every other quest was awful but that one almost made up for it. a.k.a. Gnomebliteration
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Aug 26, 2015 23:39
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Xavier434 posted:1. Does the quest make me feel more interested in and/or closer to the characters or world that I am involved in regardless of it being a main or side quest? This is huge and can be accomplished in many ways including better voice acting, facial expressions, camera angles, cut scenes, etc. I want to care about these characters. I want to care about the NPCs and the world's culture. I want to be interested in learning more about it through a quest system. I don't just want to grind tons of numbers. I think this is the most important part of questing for a lot of people that don't even realize it. I generally look back fondly on FFXIV questing... even though the quests themselves were pretty loving bad. Aside from actually doing the quests (run here, talk, run here, talk, run here, talk, run here, pick up 8 items, run here, literally watch these NPCs talk, here are 1400 wet wagon noodles we call XP), everything about them was enjoyable, and it made the game really easy to get into. Even the most generic parts of the story were above most standards for MMOs.
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Aug 27, 2015 02:00
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socialsecurity posted:Wildstar had one quest where you got a hoverbike and got to mow down zombies with it, every other quest was awful but that one almost made up for it. the best part was that was a fun and cool quest but also you could do it over and over and get giant eyeballs for your housing each time stick big ol googly eyes on everything live the rareware dream
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Aug 27, 2015 02:13
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a harpy posted:I think this is the most important part of questing for a lot of people that don't even realize it. I generally look back fondly on FFXIV questing... even though the quests themselves were pretty loving bad. Aside from actually doing the quests (run here, talk, run here, talk, run here, talk, run here, pick up 8 items, run here, literally watch these NPCs talk, here are 1400 wet wagon noodles we call XP), everything about them was enjoyable, and it made the game really easy to get into. Even the most generic parts of the story were above most standards for MMOs. For all of xiv's faults it gets credit on the questing front for the Dark Knight job quest chain, which is a loving awesome teardown of everything retarded in the MMO genre
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Aug 27, 2015 05:48
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Xavier434 posted:4. No barriers or competing in PvE. I am basically saying that I want GW2 style interaction with "quests" where anyone can join in and help complete with a solid system of level scaling. While not normally considered a "quest system" feature set, this aspect greatly impacts how much I enjoy the questing experience regardless of what quality that the quests actually are. I very much like this. Also, it gives you reasons to go back to old content. When you are questing and exploring a new area, you cross a village, meet new people (NPCs), discover new creatures.... In the back of your mind you always know that this is the content that you are playing now, and that in a few hours you will move on. And once you move on, the fact that this village, this NPC, this creature exists in the world, will not matter any more. You just don't go back to grey zones, you have no reasons to do that. With a system like GW2, you always have the opportunity to enjoy the old content. When a friend is there and you want to help him out for example, but also just if you feel like going there one more time, maybe get some rewards/items/XP while killing the orcs that are bothering the village you so much cared about.
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Aug 27, 2015 11:16
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No, you're forced to "enjoy" the old content. Done right you would be given the choice, not be forced to actually put in effort when you may just want to pick up a few more materials for crafting or do a jumping puzzle or just explore and look at poo poo. And then of course you're forced to "enjoy" it again on your next character because you may want a legendary and you need another completion for that or you just still want to play the game and there's gently caress all else to do.
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Aug 27, 2015 13:19
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Rorus Raz posted:Weird that WoW never really cribbed public quests, aka "the only enduring legacy of Warhammer Online." The have as best they can with their aging engine. WoD has a couple spread out through each zone, of course they don't chain and people can only get the reward once.
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Aug 27, 2015 13:47
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Morglon posted:No, you're forced to "enjoy" the old content. Done right you would be given the choice, not be forced to actually put in effort when you may just want to pick up a few more materials for crafting or do a jumping puzzle or just explore and look at poo poo. And then of course you're forced to "enjoy" it again on your next character because you may want a legendary and you need another completion for that or you just still want to play the game and there's gently caress all else to do. You are right. You are forced to play the game. Now, if you do not enjoy the content you are playing enough due to lack of replay value or whatever reason then that is a completely separate issue which has nothing to do with the level scaling system in GW2. Also, you really aren't forced to do this stuff again even if you want a legendary since you get to make two legendaries with just a single round of content completion, but if you want to make 3 of them It is not a perfect system, but it is a much better system for many reasons.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:07
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:The have as best they can with their aging engine. WoD has a couple spread out through each zone, of course they don't chain and people can only get the reward once.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:12
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:The have as best they can with their aging engine. WoD has a couple spread out through each zone, of course they don't chain and people can only get the reward once. It was either this thread or the WoW nostalgia thread, but fundamentally WoW's engine can only recognize 3 criteria for completing quests: Killing a number of mobs, turning in a number of items, and talking to an NPC. Anything more complex than that involves McGuyering code together involving invisible critters and such.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:15
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Rorus Raz posted:Do you mean the assault dailies? Cause that is basically "kill X mobs" only you get a bar instead of a number. I don't know if those, or the bonus quests in the leveling zones, really capture the feel of Warhammer's public quests. I remember the one in the greenskin starting zone where you had to get a giant drunk enough that he'd carry a bomb to a bridge so you could swarm over the bridge and gently caress poo poo up. I guess some of the rare spawns kinda capture that feel, and there's a bonus thing in Tanaan to summon and destroy the Blood Moon which comes kinda close.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:17
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Morglon posted:No, you're forced to "enjoy" the old content. Done right you would be given the choice, not be forced to actually put in effort when you may just want to pick up a few more materials for crafting or do a jumping puzzle or just explore and look at poo poo. And then of course you're forced to "enjoy" it again on your next character because you may want a legendary and you need another completion for that or you just still want to play the game and there's gently caress all else to do. You get two Gifts of Exploration for doing world completion once, which is enough to make two legendaries. If you're ever making more than two legendaries, I would have to assume you legitimately enjoy the game enough that you've probably done world completion a second time already. If you just want materials, you're free to ignore events that you run by to do your mining or woodcutting. Some jumping puzzles are blocked off by events, that's true, but one legitimate issue of being "forced" to do an event to do something else doesn't seem all that bad to me, especially given how short most events are. Basically I don't understand this criticism at all. There's a lot to criticize about GW2, but this doesn't make any sense to me.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:22
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Harrow posted:Basically I don't understand this criticism at all. There's a lot to criticize about GW2, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Neither do I. If one dislikes replaying the content that much then I don't understand why they would dedicate the time towards making even one legendary let alone three.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:28
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Xavier434 posted:Neither do I. If one dislikes replaying the content that much then I don't understand why they would dedicate the time towards making even one legendary let alone three. And unless you love the game enough to play pretty princess dressups then there is no reason to craft a legendary in the first place, since they aren't any better than regular weapons.
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Aug 27, 2015 17:50
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Xavier434 posted:Neither do I. If one dislikes replaying the content that much then I don't understand why they would dedicate the time towards making even one legendary let alone three. To be fair, world completion can definitely feel like a grind, because hearts are probably the least exciting content in the game. It's much more manageable if you're not grinding it out all at once. I did mine over several months, just occasionally taking a night to chill out and do a zone. But like you said: if you're the kind of person who actually needs the world completion rewards more than once, you're already in deep and probably don't mind the world completion at all.
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Aug 27, 2015 19:29
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Harrow posted:To be fair, world completion can definitely feel like a grind, because hearts are probably the least exciting content in the game. It's much more manageable if you're not grinding it out all at once. I did mine over several months, just occasionally taking a night to chill out and do a zone. Yeah. Additionally, the time it takes to get world completion is nothing compared to how long it takes to fulfill the rest of the requirements just to create one legendary.
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Aug 27, 2015 19:34
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A legendary to use on what? Is it op enough in pvp to warrant the effort? Because gw2 pve end game is awful/non existent compared to its competitors.
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Aug 27, 2015 20:33
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Weapon/Armor stats don't do anything in PvP. The point of a getting a legendary isn't their stats (though being able to change its stats on-the-fly is nice), it's their appearance. They all have unique looks, and most of them have unique effects, like leaving a trail of stars behind you when you walk, or shooting flowers and unicorns instead of arrows. It is 100% a Pretty Princess Dressup/Bragging Rights thing. They have the same stat strength as Ascended Weapons, which are a pain to get as well but much less so than a Legendary.
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Aug 27, 2015 20:47
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Holyshoot posted:A legendary to use on what? Is it op enough in pvp to warrant the effort? Because gw2 pve end game is awful/non existent compared to its competitors. In the serious dudes pvp type (spvp) there is no functional difference between a brand new level 1 character and a 1000s of hours played level 80.
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Aug 27, 2015 21:09
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My two favorite leveling experiences in MMOs has to be startrek online romulan release and Star wars old republic current 12x xp bonus for class quests. They both essentially tell you a story while leveling up and don't turn it into a 100+hour poo poo fest to level because they want you to "play the game".
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Aug 27, 2015 21:54
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SWTOR with 12x class quest XP is basically just KOTOR 3.
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Aug 27, 2015 22:00
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Final Fantasy Four-teen is the best MMO out right now and if you think it is a bad game you are an outrageous cretin and I pray your life span diminishes from some terrible event.
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Aug 27, 2015 22:09
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"Oh no! this mmo is making me do... QUESTS... AND BOSS MECHANICS!! What kind of backwards antiquated thinking is this!"
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Aug 27, 2015 22:11
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Rexicon1 posted:Final Fantasy Four-teen is the best MMO out right now and if you think it is a bad game you are an outrageous cretin and I pray your life span diminishes from some terrible event. I want to enjoy it but I can't bring myself to play tab targeted MMOs anymore.
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Aug 27, 2015 22:20
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If anything the crop of hybrid action MMOs thats been coming out in the last few years have confirmed that I would much rather have a solid tab targetting mmo than a half baked "action" one. And just about all of them have been half baked. Good thing B&S had had time to mature before coming out here, its combat wrecks all of thems.
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Aug 27, 2015 22:29
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Rexicon1 posted:"Oh no! this mmo is making me do... QUESTS... AND BOSS MECHANICS!! What kind of backwards antiquated thinking is this!" It's an okay MMO. All MMOs are bad games. HTH. Because it's more like "oh no this MMO makes me fall asleep with its glacial combat, and let's click through millions of lines of inane rambling as a lead-in for yet another kill-ten-rats quest".
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Aug 27, 2015 22:31
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gently caress you you stupid assholes, play ffxiv like a goddamn man
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Aug 27, 2015 22:33
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