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Peel posted:
Yes, the problem is that Ippo never actually learns any boxing savvy or becomes skillful. He just becomes *faster*, or *hits harder!*. I think it's by shonen design; he has to be the underdog and win with sheer grit every time so he cannot shut someone down, because it would be un-heroic. The manga was never going to have Ippo grow in that way, and now it's gone stale. And the rest of the boxers actually show something once or twice. Takamura is the best example.
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Aug 22, 2015 13:44
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It's pretty silly since there are plenty of other boxers who use both shounen grit and technique to pull through. Miyata and Volg's last fights were about that, both taking damage and grinding through it to set up a winning move. It was ridiculously OTT in Miyata's case, but not a terrible concept. You could even call Ippo's victory against Mashiba an example of it, he was breaking his fist but in pursuit of a specific goal of ruining Mashiba's arm. There are some positive signs. Kamogawa admitted during the Gonzalez match that nothing they were doing was working, and kept flashing back to Woli's trainer warning him about impending catastrophe. That suggests that he realises something has gone wrong and his 'back to basics!' line is just a front to keep Ippo training while he figures out what to do. We'll find out when we see what he's actually having Ippo do for his comeback. Dempsey evolutions aside, I don't think he's learned anything since those motionless feints he used in the Sendo rematch, and those were forgotten immediately. I guess Morikawa didn't like them. Peel fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Aug 22, 2015 |
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Aug 22, 2015 15:21
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The whole point of the series is that Ippo takes that first step, again, and again... and he never moves forward. Truth in advertising!
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Aug 22, 2015 17:21
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I actually have no idea how they can salvage Ippo as a character at this point without making him just stop being himself. If it means that Ippo ends up deciding to shed his nice-guy persona when it comes to boxing and become a proud, ACTUALLY self-confident boxer who goes into the ring with the idea of making orphans of the other guy's children then hey count me back on board.
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Aug 22, 2015 18:04
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Peel posted:I read this, for some reason. I'm not a big fan of sports or shounen but this thesis isn't going to avoid writing itself. i agree for the most part but you're absolutely insane if you aren't including up to the takamura hawk fight as the good period, hell its the best period, and to a lesser extent the war flashback is really good too
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Aug 22, 2015 18:15
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Fabricated posted:I actually have no idea how they can salvage Ippo as a character at this point without making him just stop being himself. If it means that Ippo ends up deciding to shed his nice-guy persona when it comes to boxing and become a proud, ACTUALLY self-confident boxer who goes into the ring with the idea of making orphans of the other guy's children then hey count me back on board. Wasn't there 1 match soon after he became the champion when this happened and he totally destroyed the other guy? Then it was like that never happened because character development is bad.
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Aug 22, 2015 19:07
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RabidWeasel posted:Wasn't there 1 match soon after he became the champion when this happened and he totally destroyed the other guy? Then it was like that never happened because character development is bad. Yeah. He spent like 2 minutes standing there. Rushed in, ate a counter specifically targeted to that exact rush, and knocked the other guy the gently caress out, becasue "training to take a punch" or something let him not get his rear end dropped to the mat like he should have been.
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Aug 22, 2015 20:23
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Repster posted:Yeah. He spent like 2 minutes standing there. Rushed in, ate a counter specifically targeted to that exact rush, and knocked the other guy the gently caress out, becasue "training to take a punch" or something let him not get his rear end dropped to the mat like he should have been. No, he's talking about the one where Ippo decides to stop relying on the dempsey roll. The opponent was from the same gym as the doctor boxer and Ippo makes mincemeat of him without eating a million punches to the head.
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Aug 22, 2015 20:47
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Fabricated posted:I actually have no idea how they can salvage Ippo as a character at this point without making him just stop being himself. If it means that Ippo ends up deciding to shed his nice-guy persona when it comes to boxing and become a proud, ACTUALLY self-confident boxer who goes into the ring with the idea of making orphans of the other guy's children then hey count me back on board. yeah this the crux of the issue. I want to see it too. I want to see a Roberto Duran styled Ippo
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Aug 22, 2015 21:10
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Fabricated posted:I actually have no idea how they can salvage Ippo as a character at this point without making him just stop being himself. If it means that Ippo ends up deciding to shed his nice-guy persona when it comes to boxing and become a proud, ACTUALLY self-confident boxer who goes into the ring with the idea of making orphans of the other guy's children then hey count me back on board. You might like Rikudo
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Aug 22, 2015 21:38
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sam16 posted:No, he's talking about the one where Ippo decides to stop relying on the dempsey roll. The opponent was from the same gym as the doctor boxer and Ippo makes mincemeat of him without eating a million punches to the head. It's Karasawa, it's the last fight of Ippo's i enjoyed and it was years ago
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Aug 23, 2015 04:25
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RabidWeasel posted:Wasn't there 1 match soon after he became the champion when this happened and he totally destroyed the other guy? Then it was like that never happened because character development is bad. It didn't work of course, Ippo trained himself to the point where he basically punched Karasawa's soul out after cornering him. The arc did happen to have this one moment of clarity however:  edit: also this is the same arc that officially negates a specifically stated thing about Ippo a few characters note- since he's not some uber-prodigy he generally inspires those he beats because they realize that if they trained differently/harder they could have beaten him. Instead, Karasawa realized Ippo is so much stronger than him that it's pointless to continue and retires from boxing, frustrated and humiliated. Fabricated fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Aug 23, 2015 |
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Aug 23, 2015 05:21
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Fabricated posted:As someone mentioned it was Karasawa. Karasawa was an orthodox outboxer and specifically trained himself physically until he was built like a brick shithouse for the purpose of being able to outbox Ippo without wilting after one hit. But he doesn't retire? Doesn't he have a fight with itigaki after that in the Class A tournament?
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Aug 23, 2015 17:18
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Frabba posted:But he doesn't retire? Doesn't he have a fight with itigaki after that in the Class A tournament?
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Aug 23, 2015 19:58
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Well, Ippo's successfully defended his title for the first time, and Miyata's taken the OPBF title. Both were pretty good fights! I liked Sanada Kazuki's boxing style a lot, the surgical precision for targeted damage and the Hien were both really interesting techniques, and I think the alternate universe where Sanada's the main character and going up a class to face Ippo is his equivalent of the Date match is a pretty lucky universe. Of course, then he goes and retires from boxing, but the fact that this guy is making rational decisions is endearing. Also the fact that his coach is supportive of his decision is a great touch. Ippo willpowering his way through induced exhaustion is also a lot more believable than powering through eating a giant right to the head. Miyata's outfighting wasn't as good in his match wasn't as good as I would have hoped, but I suppose the whole point is that this was an opponent that his usual suite of counters wasn't going to work on, so he just had to tough it out until he could come up with a solution on the spot. So ultimately it was still satisfying. I'm not really sure how Ippo is supposed to beat Miyata now though, especially with his really limited suite of punches. Edit: read a little further, tired of Takamura not getting actual matches, but Ippo getting his poo poo owned by Ricardo was great. The Lord of Hats fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Aug 24, 2015 |
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Aug 24, 2015 07:28
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Sendo is the best, and the worst, because he shows that Morikawa can make a competent, hot-blooded Ippo, but he just won't.  "Going back to basics" could mean that Ippo is re-learning the basics of defense, which he obviously sucks at: feet movement, swaying, dodging, blocking. Like 85% of the punches he eats could've been avoided with a side-step or swaying to the sides, but NOOO!, he has to keep moving forward. It would be nice to see Ippo going in a world tour, or at least an Asia tour like Miyata so he can see what he's lacking, but it's such a good idea that it's almost impossible it will happen.
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Aug 24, 2015 10:36
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Kal-L posted:"Going back to basics" could mean that Ippo is re-learning the basics of defense, which he obviously sucks at: feet movement, swaying, dodging, blocking. Like 85% of the punches he eats could've been avoided with a side-step or swaying to the sides, but NOOO!, he has to keep moving forward.
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Aug 24, 2015 11:55
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If this manga ends with anything but Ippo being a vegetable due to brain damage it's a travesty.
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Aug 24, 2015 13:32
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The entire series is a hallucination. Ippo is in a coma after the first shot to the head he ever took.
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Aug 24, 2015 13:43
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Fabricated posted:If this manga ends with anything but Ippo being a vegetable due to brain damage it's a travesty. Ippo has magic fists that heal brain damage, he can just punch himself back to health.
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Aug 24, 2015 14:07
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Green Intern posted:The entire series is a hallucination. Ippo is in a coma after the first shot to the head he ever took. drat tragedy that Umezawa put Ippo in a coma but there you have it!
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Aug 24, 2015 14:20
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Well, I read a whole bunch more chapters; I'm in the leadup to Ippo's fight with Muscles McHugeNeck. So that'd be... Date's world title match, Hammer Nao, Takamura's title match, and the Kamogawa arc. Date vs. Martinez was very well done. I kind of wish that Date had a period where he had the upper hand, but on the other hand Martinez is Boxing given human shape, so it makes sense that even though Date gave a very solid performance, and certainly pressured the champ, he wasn't ever seriously winning. Arguably in the very last round when he actually landed the heartbreaker, but that was a definite "too little, too late, but it could have been enough if things had gone differently" sort of a thing. A good note to end things on, and a solid end to Date's boxing career. And hey, he gets to coach now! That's gotta be better than being a salaryman. We then pick up Itagaki, our replacement Geromichi, because Geromichi left the gym and turned into a goddamn mutant. So far Itagaki's had two matches that were pretty much brief sideshows, the character's definitely on the backburner for now. Still, his loss in the debut match was a nice display of a particular facet of inexperience. He's right about the fouls being bullshit, but his response to them is really bad, and something he's going to have to overcome. He also looks to be an outboxer, so I'm looking forward to seeing more of his matches. Hammer "Filthy Fouling Cheater" Nao on the other hand... this wasn't a great match, but then I suppose that it wasn't a particularly great card in-universe, either, so that's not a huge deal. The buildup to the fight was pretty decent, I just don't want to look at his weirdass face anymore. Oh, also, it befuddles me that Itagaki talks about quitting college because he can make money by boxing, while everything I've seen seems to suggest that all the pro boxers make pretty pathetic wages all around. Takamura won the goddamn world title, and only gets what, $15k? Really? Speaking of Takamura winning the title, fight fuckin' owned. Seeing how much of a physical wreck he had to be to hold himself at Jr Medium was great, and reading those chapters made me thirsty. I hope he doesn't feel the need to defend that title too many times, I want to see healthy Takamura (dehydrated, non-pompadour Takamura is fuckin' weird to see). Bryan Hawk was kind of cartoonishly evil, but hey, that's fair enough. Also his second calls out Kamogawa on being a lovely second, which I will always appreciate, even if Kamogawa is ultimately vindicated by Takamura's victory. Also, even though I saw it coming since the pre-match press conference, Takamura stealing Hawk's "GIVE ME YOUR WOMEN" bit was the most Takamura thing ever. Aaaand the Kamogawa Arc, or as I would prefer to think of it, the "Nekota Ginpachi's life is fuckin' sad" arc. Because seriously, that was really sad to watch the guy's body just kind of stop on him because brain damage. I complain about Ippo trucking on fine despite eating a billion punches, but that's more because I want to see Ippo use more strategy, and less because I actually want to see those consequences, because man are they tragic. I'm glad that Nekota at least gets a close-to-normal life back together, and live to old age, but that doesn't soften the blow of seeing his downfall. Also the fact that all three of the geezers had their careers ended by the same American (who is even more cartoonishly evil than Hawk was) is kind of funny in its own way. The Kamogawa parts of the arc were a bit too "willpower willpower WILLPOWER", for my taste, but that's a taste I'm learning to just accept for what it is, even if it does get tiring. Speaking of tiring, Ippo isn't going to bother with anything past the Dempsey Roll, is he. He's just going to keep working with that same thing forever, and we're never going to get to see him develop a new tool in his arsenal. Or ask out Kumi-chan (seriously she's waiting for you this goddamn long, pull the goddamn trigger you spineless fuckweasel, she's clearly going to say yes).
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Aug 25, 2015 06:38
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Wait...they didn't get around to animating the Take Keichi fight? That's depressing..
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Aug 25, 2015 07:33
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The Lord of Hats posted:Aaaand the Kamogawa Arc, or as I would prefer to think of it, the "Nekota Ginpachi's life is fuckin' sad" arc. Because seriously, that was really sad to watch the guy's body just kind of stop on him because brain damage. I complain about Ippo trucking on fine despite eating a billion punches, but that's more because I want to see Ippo use more strategy, and less because I actually want to see those consequences, because man are they tragic. I'm glad that Nekota at least gets a close-to-normal life back together, and live to old age, but that doesn't soften the blow of seeing his downfall. Also the fact that all three of the geezers had their careers ended by the same American (who is even more cartoonishly evil than Hawk was) is kind of funny in its own way. The Kamogawa parts of the arc were a bit too "willpower willpower WILLPOWER", for my taste, but that's a taste I'm learning to just accept for what it is, even if it does get tiring. Which after the Kamogawa Arc (which is a good arc) keeps getting more and more ridiculous. Like, there is a whole arc dedicated to the consequences of getting punch drunk and it is really loving sad, and in the end nothing is learned from it.
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Aug 25, 2015 11:43
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Aug 25, 2015 13:14
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Fabricated posted:As someone mentioned it was Karasawa. Karasawa was an orthodox outboxer and specifically trained himself physically until he was built like a brick shithouse for the purpose of being able to outbox Ippo without wilting after one hit. Karasawa was an amazing fight. The knockout punch was so over-the-top that it conveyed some of the brutality you see in actual boxing knockouts in static form.
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Aug 25, 2015 18:40
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So, I'm through Fisherman and Aoki's title shot. Up next is... Sawamura, it looks like? Been a while since Ippo's faced a counterpuncher. We have a return to the cyanosis thing from Ippo's first title defense. The bottom of the ocean imagery is pretty neat and well delivered, (the knee-deep, up to his neck, underwater, drag him down progression is a nice comparison) and like that first title defense, I appreciate an opponent with a clear game plan that plays out over the course of the match, even if they ultimately lose. Ippo's response to a shorter opponent was nice to see, and watching him try some outboxing was nice even if it ultimately didn't pan out. I kind of wish there was a little more distance from the previous cyanosis match, but that's probably just because I'm marathoning it. As a side note, I'm guessing "man of the sea" flows a lot better and has more connotations in the original Japanese. And Aoki's match. I've realized that I've really come to appreciate Aoki. At first he felt like a complete joke character--and he does carry a lot of the comic relief role, while Kimura gets to be the relatively cool one of the pair. But unlike anyone else at the gym, it feels like Aoki actually has his life together. He has a job that pays the bills, he seems to have his own apartment that he keeps clean, he has a long-term girlfriend (and they clearly love each other a lot), and he has a passion that he pursues in boxing. Dude's living a satisfying life. Also, he has been the most dedicated wingman ever in terms of trying to get Ippo to actually get with Kumi-chan. He's a great guy. He's also a deceptively good boxer and he deserved that title goddammit. He loving works for his matches, and not in that mindless MUST TRUST COACH way that Ippo does. He's not amazing and he knows it, so he's always looking for that edge on his own. Seriously, his primary trainer is Shinoda who you hardly ever see (I was weirded out when Shinoda was actually acknowledged as a character, I thought he was some weird boxing phantasm). Kamogawa doesn't seem to give much of a poo poo about him. So he just disrupts the hell out of his opponents and feints them into the dirt. Kimura losing to Mashiba I can accept but Aoki's draw with a no-name was frustrating, especially with how much he controlled the fight. I get that you have to keep him and Kimura roughly equal, but you could have let him win and then immediately lose the belt badly. Now I'll probably never get a good fight out of him again.
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Aug 26, 2015 06:39
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Shinoda being a weird boxing phantasm makes me laugh. Basically yeah if you're not trained by "THROW YOUR FACE INTO THE OTHER MANS GLOVE. SHOW ME YOUR SPIRIT" Kamogawa you can't seem to catch a break at Ippo's gym. Aoki and Kimura rule.
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Aug 26, 2015 11:41
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The Lord of Hats posted:So, I'm through Fisherman and Aoki's title shot. Up next is... Sawamura, it looks like? Been a while since Ippo's faced a counterpuncher. Did you get to the Yagi fisherman story yet?
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Aug 26, 2015 12:06
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That Works posted:Did you get to the Yagi fisherman story yet? i think thats still a few hundred chaps away
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Aug 26, 2015 19:51
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I don't know if it's exactly the Yagi fisherman story, but it has come out that Yagi fuckin' owns at fishing, and is banned from fishing in various places because he catches all the fish. Nice bit of characterization for someone who otherwise hasn't had a ton (Shinoda status: still a boxing phantasm). I'm in the lead-up to Itagaki's match versus Foulmachine McFlicker, who is clearly going to lose because nobody gets to successfully steal Mashiba's style. Actually, regarding the hitman style, people always refer to it as an ultra-aggressive style, and just taking the stance myself I can see why, your guard is utter poo poo in that pose. But isn't it kind of super-defensive too, because the whole point is your opponent is never going to close in on you if you do it right? I'd rather keep them at arm's length than take a bunch of hits on the arms I am trying to punch with. Anyways, getting to where I am means that I've read the Sawamura and David Eagle fights! So you get to read words about those! Sawamura was a really great fight, honestly. Ippo gets to open with a very clean couple of rounds, in which he dodges pretty much everything, and gets some good hits in. Granted, this is because Sawamura is an outboxer, and needs to take some time to get his sense of range and timing down so he can take control of the match, but it gives some dimensionality to Ippo's boxing that he can be very elusive when he's in his rhythm. And because Ippo looks so good starting out, it makes Sawamura look even better when he suddenly turns it on. While the Bullet isn't the sexiest punch out there (that goes to the flicker jab, I fuckin' love the way that gets drawn), I do like the way it pressures Ippo to charge in and eat a counter. This is a match that really makes Ippo's schtick of being really tough work, because it's not so much that he kept punching longer here, but it was more a statement of "You can take rounds of Ippo, but you better hope whatever you're using to hit him is really loving hard for him to beat, because he's going to stay standing for a long-rear end time and that's a lot of time to figure out the weakness in what you're doing". I wasn't the biggest fan of the evolved Dempsey Roll, I have to say. It's valid that he improves the technique, and being able to change up the rhythm would help cover its weakness to counters, but I'm kind of wondering if Ippo has any body parts that haven't been strengthened to absurd degrees at this point. How does he always stay super comfortably featherweight if he's adding all this muscle everywhere? But that's not a problem with the Sawamura fight it and of itself; it's still one of my favorites in the series. Sawamura gets a good character arc, too. There's three nonfights in here--Miyata versus "nonentity sandbag", which is a throwaway to setup that evil coach some more, and the Eleki and Papaya fights which... I guess I wish they'd been a little easier to take seriously, because while they are national champs, their giant glaring weaknesses kind of make Kimura and Aoki look bad for not being able to notice them. You really didn't land a body blow until super late, Kimura? What are you even doing in these fights? (actually, I feel like Kimura's fighting style has been super-poorly defined. He's meant to be an outboxer, but it feels like all his matches are against people he can't outbox). Aoki's fight was fun and cornbally, I have to admit, but I kinda wish that Papaya went another round of solid body blows on Aoki before gassing out, because as it was it made Aoki look super-low endurance as well. Still, they were fun for what they were, and my complaints aren't really worth talking about that much. The David Eagle fight... first of all, David Eagle is great. A nice contrast to Bryan Hawk's super-evil American persona, and a polar opposite in style as well. Also great is how the match illustrates that going into a match with just the goal of "have a good match" is kind of silly and disrespectful. Sure, on the one hand, when your opponent got an accidental cut, it is *nice* of you not to target, and it is probably going to make for a more skill-intensive boxing match on the whole. But at the same time you are deliberately handicapping yourself, which shows that you don't really take your opponent "that" seriously. You have to go into the match with the intent to win using every scrap of advantage you can get. "I did not come here to box against David Eagle, I came here to win the belt". The positioning battles at the start of the fight? Great. Both fighters trying to work around a blind spot? Great. Takamura landing solid hits against an opponent he can barely see even part of, because he's Just That Good? Great. The part where "it's turned into a punching match!" and Kamogawa talks about how it's turned into a battle of willpower, "the basis of boxing"? Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck! We've seen this set piece so many times! At least don't loving spell it out every single time. We get it, at this point, George. We get it. Also, I'd like to talk about how weird the 'detached retina' thing is in retrospect. Miyata and Ippo notice a couple things that lead them to be concerned about Takamura's health. We get the description from the book, Ippo goes and talks to a doctor, we hear a lot about the risks involved... and he goes to Takamura who's like "dude, no, I'm okay, seriously". And then Miyata's all "BUT HE MIGHT NOT ACTUALLY BE OKAY", and this continues into the match, and Ippo and Miyata are still concerned, until suddenly they're like "okay no I guess he's fine after all". And you realize there was never any serious tension--Takamura always knew he was fine, it's just Miyata and Ippo being a couple of hypochondriacs (for other people. They don't care about their own bodies, naturally). There was just a misunderstanding, and the worst that could have happened was Takamura would have to go to a doctor, have his eye checked and get told "nope, it's fine!". It's just... nothing. In any case, I finally get to see a full Itagaki match. Here's hoping he lives up to how much others have hyped hiim.
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Aug 28, 2015 06:31
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The Lord of Hats posted:In any case, I finally get to see a full Itagaki match. Here's hoping he lives up to how much others have hyped hiim. I'm so sorry...
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Aug 28, 2015 07:21
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The Lord of Hats posted:How does he always stay super comfortably featherweight if he's adding all this muscle everywhere? Also the detached retina thing is sort of a weird thing that seems to be set up for a tragic payoff far down the road but I think Morikawa gave up or forgot about it. When Takamura "proves" he's fine by reading that magazine from far away he actually cheated because he memorized that page earlier for some reason. Also I hate Itagaki a lot less than a lot of people here but he has some of the most eye rolling matches in this manga. He's literally Boxing Neo. Fabricated fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Aug 28, 2015 |
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Aug 28, 2015 11:33
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There are a startling number of psychopathic feral children who are raised into boxing geniuses in this manga.
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Aug 28, 2015 13:04
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Conversely Itagaki's comeuppance is one of the greatest thing in the recent past of this manga.
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Aug 28, 2015 16:22
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Boogaleeboo posted:Conversely Itagaki's comeuppance is one of the greatest thing in the recent past of this manga. Yeah I kinda liked the whole way it went. He's all superawesome at times but when it gets to his head he gets trucked.
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Aug 28, 2015 18:00
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Saeki truly was the hero in their match. He got absolutely bullshitted from start to finish.
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Aug 28, 2015 18:35
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Fabricated posted:That's kinda my question because even if Ippo's natural weight at reasonably healthy bodyfat percentages puts him at the bottom of the class you can't add muscle the way he does and not have to do weight management. He probably does do an amount of weight management now, just not enough to make a big deal of it. If we consider that he's at the top of the featherweight limit now and he started at the bottom. It also depends on Ippo world's weight classes, and if they have some variation, or if the 4 pounds is what he's got to work with. Depending on how much fat was in him to start with, that could be a decent difference. Also depends on his actual height. He's under 5'6", but don't know exactly how short he is, and the smaller you are, the less muscles weigh even if they look impressive. Also, manga exaggerating everything.
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Aug 28, 2015 18:38
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Mori's art slips a bit later and everyone starts getting a grappler baki look to them too.
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Aug 28, 2015 19:20
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Fabricated posted:Mori's art slips a bit later and everyone starts getting a grappler baki look to them too. Implying there's anything wrong with Baki the grappler
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Aug 28, 2015 20:38
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