Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Mr. Wookums posted:

"Effectronica", You seem to be attributing premises to me that I never made. Please, with education as is in this country do you feel those who are in the lower rungs of socioeconomic status tend towards your serfdom or being intellectually enlightened? How would putting more funding and resources into those schools result in a further emphasis on unskilled labor and anti intellectualism? If your contention is those in power will change education post reform to be more labor focused while simultaneously making criminal reform to make habits of the labor class criminal, it's a bit difficult to argue against self fulfilling premises.

Well, amigo, you didn't read the post I was responding to, so blinding was your fury. So I'm afraid that you have rendered yourself irrelevant.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 17:50

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 30, 2024 19:25

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

Don't amigo me buddy.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 17:53

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

ActusRhesus posted:

Pretty sure I've said on multiple occasions that willful prosecutorial misconduct should be a felony. However I object to things like "said the word victim during closing argument when he wasn't supposed to" or "didn't turn over a police report he didn't know existed" as "misconduct". However, because they are analyzed on appeal as "misconduct" or "impropriety" cases, the stats are misleading. Hell, I've been in a position where I didn't know some dumb gently caress navy cop didn't know that "turn over your file" means all of it, including the scribble notes you took writing down numbers on screencaps that were turned over. Is that withheld evidence? Technically. When I found out it existed, did I turn it over? Yes. Should someone be disbarred for that? No. The cops didn't even know it was wrong because in their mind "we turned over the screencap already...who cares about our scribbles that we wrote down as we were taking the screencaps?" A reasonable, albeit incorrect thought.

Hate to reply to you when probated, but:
What sanction did the cop get? I mean this is loving POST 101 (I know because I've been reviewing police training).
I've had cases hosed where the cop didn't turn over video because he thought he edited copy was fine, even after the DA asked directly. He is still a cop and saw no sanctions.
A detective completely hosed a highish profile murder case. He failed to turn over BOXES of evidence to the DA. The DA only found out about it after jury selection when a cop from another agency started mentioning evidence she'd never seen. The detective then tried to throw her under the bus (the DA in question was quite ethical). The DA was livid, and I'm sure this incident made it pretty high.
He's still a detective ruining murder cases.
I have never, not once, seen a cop get punished for what even the DA sees as a grevious discovery violation. Even when cases get dismissed, the cops continue, unimpeded by ethics. And they keep doing the same poo poo.
Now the reason I think that it is "misconduct" is that if these DAs had been more interested in discovery, they might have gotten it. They were not being unethical, but they used standard forms and trust rather than picking up a loving phone. If the consequences on DAs were harsher, they might have acted. Also, if DAs officea had to fear attorneys being sanctioned, they might push departments harder to do something about problem cops and lazy evidence pratices.
Disbarment, no? But some fine for wasting the court and defense's time? Yes. Though I'd prefer it laid on the cop responsible, it would be harder to do that.
Or, they could just start outright dismissing (with no refile) cases when they happen. Couple murders go away a cops might actually pay attention to brady.

Late discovery is commonplace here. It is rarely fully on the DA, in many cases they may have requested the stuff for weeks, but it is still 100% bullshit and hurts our ability to defend a case (and hurts the DA's ability to prosecute it).

# ? Aug 28, 2015 18:27

Gunshow Poophole: Sep 14, 2008; OMBUDSMAN
POSTERS LOCAL 42069; Clapping Larry

A dude posted this up in the USPol thread but it definitely belongs here because holy poo poo

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/28/jamycheal-mitchell-virginia-jail-found-dead

A young black man steals a candy bar and a soda, is held without bond for four months, left to die in cell at 24 years old. Was severely mentally ill. I hate this poo poo so much.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 18:34

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

ActusRhesus posted:

Before we can address solutions, we need to agree on the scope of the problem. That's where we have an impasse.

Which problem though? We've been talking about wrongful convictions lately, but it's likely impossible to pin down how many innocent people are in prison. We know when the FBI started testing DNA evidence, more than 25% of the prime suspects got exonerated in each case. But that's only cases where DNA can help. And it doesn't necessarily follow that all of them would have been railroaded to a conviction. And that's only the one's eliminated by DNA, there's surely some innocent people in the other 75%. We're just never gonna figure it out.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 18:42

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

nm posted:

Hey, I understand if it's not something you should talk about, but how many of your clients do you think are innocent?

# ? Aug 28, 2015 18:49

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

PostNouveau posted:

Hey, I understand if it's not something you should talk about, but how many of your clients do you think are innocent?

I don't like the word innocent, per say because that almost requires a level of being there to know.
Not guilty on the meaning that I had serious doubts about guilt?

Misdemeanor level? Maybe 5-10%. Note that most of these get dismissed before trial, but still an arrest and a huge waste of time.
Most of these cases are domestic violence and resisting cases with low level DUIs.
Of those pobably 20% go to trial, 30% plea because they are scared of losing a job or something, 50% get dismissals or plea to something they "did do" (like if they were stopped for speeding for the DUI, the dui gets dismissed and they plea to speeding)
Another 10-30% are completely overcharged (DV with injury with no injury is common. Resisting with force charged when no force used)

Felonies, probably 1% (if there were doubts, they'd reduce to a misdo), but much more overcharging than in misdo land.
Those cases almost always go to trial unless the guy has a long sheet or gets a misdo offer.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 19:08

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

nm posted:

I don't like the word innocent, per say because that almost requires a level of being there to know.
Not guilty on the meaning that I had serious doubts about guilt?

Misdemeanor level? Maybe 5-10%. Note that most of these get dismissed before trial, but still an arrest and a huge waste of time.
Most of these cases are domestic violence and resisting cases with low level DUIs.
Of those pobably 20% go to trial, 30% plea because they are scared of losing a job or something, 50% get dismissals or plea to something they "did do" (like if they were stopped for speeding for the DUI, the dui gets dismissed and they plea to speeding)
Another 10-30% are completely overcharged (DV with injury with no injury is common. Resisting with force charged when no force used)

Felonies, probably 1% (if there were doubts, they'd reduce to a misdo), but much more overcharging than in misdo land.
Those cases almost always go to trial unless the guy has a long sheet or gets a misdo offer.

And what's the occurrence of each? Like 70-30 misdemeanors to felonies?

# ? Aug 28, 2015 19:16

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

PostNouveau posted:

And what's the occurrence of each? Like 70-30 misdemeanors to felonies?

In the court I most recently worked in 2014 about 5000 felonies were filed a year.
8000 misdos were filed by the DA (generally the more serious cases like DV or DUI). I have no numbers on direct files (less serious cases filed by the cop themselves like trespass, drunk in public, pipe cases, driving while suspended), but my gut says at twice as many, so 24,000 misdos.

Fake edit: the one charge 99% of people in CA are not guilty when charged is drunk in public. Here you must be too intoxicated to care for yourself. This means passed out, running into traffic, making GBS threads yourself. Maybe 1 of 1000 were guilty (guy who went to bed behind the drivethrough speed bump, for example) while most were either homeless or failed the attitude test. In every single one of these cases, these people are arrested. Really hosed up. Then they get charged, have to go to court at least 3 times in a month to get the case dismissed.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 19:34

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

nm posted:

In the court I most recently worked in 2014 about 5000 felonies were filed a year.
8000 misdos were filed by the DA (generally the more serious cases like DV or DUI). I have no numbers on direct files (less serious cases filed by the cop themselves like trespass, drunk in public, pipe cases, driving while suspended), but my gut says at twice as many, so 24,000 misdos.

Fake edit: the one charge 99% of people in CA are not guilty when charged is drunk in public. Here you must be too intoxicated to care for yourself. This means passed out, running into traffic, making GBS threads yourself. Maybe 1 of 1000 were guilty (guy who went to bed behind the drivethrough speed bump, for example) while most were either homeless or failed the attitude test. In every single one of these cases, these people are arrested. Really hosed up. Then they get charged, have to go to court at least 3 times in a month to get the case dismissed.

OK, and I think the last necessary piece would be how does innocence affect a person's odds of being found not guilty or getting charges dismissed. I got work, but it should be easy enough to extrapolate from there, at least as far as wrongful convictions (nothing to do with any other problems with the system, just wrongful convictions).

PostNouveau fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Aug 28, 2015

# ? Aug 28, 2015 19:40

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

Mr. Wookums posted:

Don't amigo me buddy.

Don't buddy me, chief.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 21:55

Toasticle: Jul 18, 2003; Hay guys, out this Rape

Zarkov Cortez posted:

Society kind of has a pressing interest in the police speaking to people to investigate crime.

And the police have a pressing interest in finding someone guilty, the DA's an interest in their nu,her of 'wins', and the system is supposed to afford even the most guilty the full protections including the advice of an attorney. You'd be hard pressed to find a single defense attorney and even a good number of prosecutors would agree speaking to a cop or DA without an attorney is moronic.

Cops get to lie legally. You don't. They get away with concealing evidence and will lie to a suspect that if they just confess they'll get a lighter punishment when they have zero say in any of it. Having your lawyer present during any interaction with any part of the justice system is a right that not nearly enough people realize or even know the importance of.

One of the biggest problems is basing the performance of cops and DAs on their number of 'wins' instead of how often justice was actually served. A DA given 10 cases with 9 innocent people would be viewed as a bad DA if he/she only got one conviction. I honestly have no idea how you fix this, direct voting is broken since poeple want prosecutors to make those fuckers pay and appointed ones the burden just gets shifted to the official appointing them. The public needs to get out of this bloodlust mindset and be more interested in actual justice not win/loss records.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 23:27

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Ohio Cop Pulls Over Black Man Who 'Made Direct Eye Contact' With Him

quote:

Earlier this month, a police officer in Dayton, Ohio, tailed a man by the name of John Felton for two miles, then pulled him over for failing to use a turn signal 100 feet prior to making his turn. To be clear: Felton used a turn signal, but he apparently didn't put it on early enough.

Only after handing over a written warning did the officer acknowledge the real reason he'd pulled over Felton, a black man who was driving a car with out-of-state plates: He had "made direct eye contact" with the officer.

The Dayton Police Department confirmed the incident in a statement emailed to The Huffington Post on Friday, and acknowledged that "making direct eye contact with an officer" is not a legitimate reason to be stopped.

"The Dayton Police Department is a true partner in the community and enjoys a positive community-police relationship," the statement said. "The Dayton Police Department is in contact with Mr. Felton. He has agreed to a conversation with the officer, facilitated by the Dayton Mediation Center. This will allow Mr. Felton and the Officer to discuss the specifics of the incident."

Video of the incident

quote:

The officer walks away, then returns a short time later with a written warning for the infraction.

"No disrespect, I don't have anything against police officers," Felton tells the officer, "but all the poo poo that's going on now, that's some scary poo poo to have a police officer just trailing you. ... Why were you trailing me?"

"Because you made direct eye contact with me and held onto it while I was passing you," he replies. "If you want to keep talking about it, I'll just give you a citation for the violation and we can take it to court. I'm not going to argue about it anymore."

# ? Aug 29, 2015 00:20

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

The proper way to deal with a police officer is to avert your eyes from their magnificence, apologize for bothering to sully their presence, and beg for forgiveness.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 00:31

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

chitoryu12 posted:

The proper way to deal with a police officer is to avert your eyes from their magnificence, apologize for bothering to sully their presence, and beg for forgiveness.

Averting your eyes with also likely be PC for this guy.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 00:37

Devor: Nov 30, 2004; Lurking more.

nm posted:

Averting your eyes with also likely be PC for this guy.

The police officer didn't say "Because you're black". Social progress!

I mean, that's still the reason. But at least they don't come out and say it.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 00:40

FlapYoJacks: Feb 12, 2009

Devor posted:

The police officer didn't say "Because you're black". Social progress!

I mean, that's still the reason. But at least they don't come out and say it.

Well you can't say friend of the family friend of the family friend of the family anymore; that hurts you.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 00:45

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

FourLeaf posted:

Ohio Cop Pulls Over Black Man Who 'Made Direct Eye Contact' With Him

Video of the incident

I still haven't seen where the rules for dealing with bears don't apply directly to police officers.

e: http://www.centerforwildlifeinformation.org/BeBearAware/BearEncounters/bearencounters.html

quote:

Avoid direct eye contact as bears may perceive this as a challenge or threat.

FAUXTON posted:

Because we don't give bears badges?

To be fair, this would probably result in fewer racial disparities in policing.

AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Aug 29, 2015

# ? Aug 29, 2015 04:35

FAUXTON: Jun 2, 2005; spero che tu stia bene

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

I still haven't seen where the rules for dealing with bears don't apply directly to police officers.

Because we don't give bears badges?

# ? Aug 29, 2015 04:39

Woof Blitzer: Dec 29, 2012; [-]

FAUXTON posted:

Because we don't give bears badges?

And yet we have the right to bear arms, makes you think

# ? Aug 29, 2015 04:45

The Aardvark: Aug 19, 2013

Trial by bear, please.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 05:50

Boywhiz88: Sep 11, 2005; floating 26" off da ground. BURR!

The loving balls on that cop to say that when he's already been told that he's being recorded.

Just wow.

On a good note: http://www.twincities.com/crime/ci_28721237/st-paul-police-chief-witnesses-stabbing-green-line

The former Chief of Police in St. Paul did some more good today. I grew up with him a few houses down from me. Always seemed like a nice guy.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 05:55

Pohl: Jan 28, 2005; In the future, please post shit with the sole purpose of antagonizing the person running this site. Thank you.

This is old but I think it applies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8SK_Hpdjuo

Cop stops an ambulance, and then tells them that they didn't move out of the way for an emergency vehicle. Everything goes to hell. Emergency vehicle, :lol:

I don't know what happened before the video started, but it appears they pull over and if he was in such a drat hurry, he could have gone around.

That cop should be fired.

:dogbutton:

Haha, the ambulance couldn't pull over, there was a car on the side of the road: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=28&v=T4G37Ouy164

And the cop did pass him, and then go back to get the ambulance.

The cop got away with it, after choking the EMT no less; because cops are never wrong.

Edit: They tell him they have a patient that needs to get to the hospital, he doesn't care.
Real humanitarian. He's just mad because the ambulance driver likely flipped him off.

Pohl fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Aug 29, 2015

# ? Aug 29, 2015 05:58

chitoryu12: Apr 24, 2014

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

I still haven't seen where the rules for dealing with bears don't apply directly to police officers.

e: http://www.centerforwildlifeinformation.org/BeBearAware/BearEncounters/bearencounters.html

It's kind of scary how many of these rules can apply to police. Let's do some edits:

quote:

If contact is made, or about to be made, drop to the ground and play dead. Lay on your stomach, clasp your hands behind your neck, and use your elbows and toes to avoid being rolled over. If the cop does roll you over, keep rolling until you land back on your stomach. Remain still and try not to struggle or scream. A defensive cop will stop attacking once it feels the threat has been removed. Do not move until you are absolutely sure the cop has left the area.

Do not run or make sudden movements, it may instinctively cause the cop to charge you.

Give cops a chance to identify you as human, and not a threat. If the cop stands up, it is trying to see, hear and smell you better. Talk firmly in a low-pitched voice while backing away. Avoid direct eye contact as cops may perceive this as a challenge or threat.

Many people mistakenly believe that there are specific gestures and warning signals cops make that will give people time to retreat to safety. Cops are individualistic and unpredictable. Cops that ignore you, look calm, or appear friendly may suddenly and without warning charge or strike out.

Human injury often occurs when any cop responds to a perceived threat with instinctive "fight or flight behavior". People get injured simply because they are too close and in the cop's way. A car horn, barking dog or excited child can trigger a cop into fight or flight behavior.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 06:08

Grundulum: Feb 28, 2006

chitoryu12 posted:

It's kind of scary how many of these rules can apply to police. Let's do some edits:

I sometimes wish SA had a "like" button for posts. That's really funny.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 12:20

Pohl: Jan 28, 2005; In the future, please post shit with the sole purpose of antagonizing the person running this site. Thank you.

Grundulum posted:

I sometimes wish SA had a "like" button for posts. That's really funny.

No, that would be horrible.
In fact, cheerleading gets you probation.
This is a good thing.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 14:18

Dahn: Sep 4, 2004

Cop executed in TX

It's just going to get worse.

http://abc13.com/news/suspect-arrested-in-deadly-ambush-on-deputy/961336/

# ? Aug 29, 2015 15:17

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

Dahn posted:

It's just going to get worse.

In what sense?

quote:

This shooting marks the first time a Texas law enforcement officer was fatally shot this year. This is the first officer slaying in the Houston-area since 2012.

Meanwhile,

http://killedbypolice.net/

code:

(779) August 27, 2015	TX	[url]http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/08/dallas-police-investigating-possible-officer-involved-shooting-near-fair-park.html/[/url]
(744) August 17, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.chron.com/houston/article/Officer-involved-shooting-in-Northeast-Houston-6449062.php[/url]
(742) August 17, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kens5.com/story/news/2015/08/17/kerrville-police-shooting/31840003/[/url]
(733) August 14, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.ksat.com/news/man-killed-in-officer-involved-shooting-in-boerne[/url]
(726) August 11, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.oaoa.com/news/crime_justice/article_0d1cc546-4094-11e5-b2c0-67fa1d7ef932.html[/url]
(725) August 11, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wacotrib.com/news/police/brisket-theft-suspect-shot-by-police-at-h-e-b/article_e7433377-88e1-5f9e-b7c7-fae0ceb8958c.html[/url]
(716) August 8, 2015	TX	[url]http://abc13.com/news/one-dead-following-officer-involved-shooting-in-brookshire/914021/[/url]
(707) August 7, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kvia.com/news/officer-involved-shooting-in-central-el-paso/34590254[/url]
(706) August 7, 2015	TX	[url]http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/08/07/one-man-dead-after-officer-involved-shooting-inside-arlington-car-dealership/[/url]
(690) August 2, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.click2houston.com/news/driver-shot-killed-after-leading-police-on-chase-across-sw-houston/34492804[/url]
(688) August 1, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/2015/08/01/man-unresponsive-after-dallas-jail-scuffle/30986151/[/url]
(685) July 31, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article29627467.html[/url]
(649) July 20, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.12newsnow.com/story/29588216/chambers-county-deputy-involved-shooting-near-winnie[/url]
(646) July 20, 2015	TX	[url]http://abc13.com/news/one-dead-following-deputy-involved-shooting-at-nightclub/865562/[/url]
(643) July 19, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.click2houston.com/news/hpd-investigating-after-possible-incustody-death-in-southeast-houston/34238632[/url]
(637) July 17, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/local/article_bb0a2d58-2c88-11e5-aac9-0b53da6d72ca.html[/url]
(611) July 12, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/austin-police-shoot-kill-1-person-in-southwest-aus/nmxZy/[/url]
(601) July 9, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Man-Who-Attacked-Texas-Police-Chief-Dies-In-Custody-312926931.html[/url]
(594) July 7, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.themonitor.com/news/local/authorities-armed-man-in-edinburg-standoff-killed-in-officer-involved/article_62b2b456-24f2-11e5-b79b-6b2f14f63dc2.html[/url]
(591) July 7, 2015	TX	[url]http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/07/dallas-police-involved-in-shooting-in-north-oak-cliff.html/[/url]
(589) July 7, 2015	TX	[url]http://abc13.com/news/hpd-officer-opens-fire-one-suspect-killed-two-others-injured/832832/[/url]
(579) July 5, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local/apd-officers-kill-two-overnight-including-man-who-/nmrsr/[/url]
(578) July 5, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local/apd-officers-kill-two-overnight-including-man-who-/nmrsr/[/url]
(556) June 26, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kens5.com/story/news/2015/06/26/fatal-shooting-involving-officer-in-far-west-sa/29348871/[/url]
(549) June 23, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.weatherforddemocrat.com/news/police-shoot-man-who-pulled-knife-on-paramedics/article_48d8d826-19cb-11e5-959b-f3ef0c69cada.html[/url]
(540) June 21, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Deputy-fatally-shoots-man-after-he-charges-6340675.php[/url]
(520) June 13, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2015/06/13/updates-gunfire-reported-at-dallas-police-headquarters/71165792/[/url]
(518) June 11, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kens5.com/story/news/2015/06/11/bexar-co-sheriffs-respond-to-deputy-involved-shooting/71098486/[/url]
(510) June 9, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.click2houston.com/news/hcso-man-shot-after-chase-in-tomball/33493698[/url]
(509) June 9, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/dallas-county/2015/06/09/man-dies-after-dallas-police-deploy-taser/28726075/[/url]
(499) June 6, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wboy.com/story/29256189/monongalia-county-deputies-shoot-suspect-after-vehicle-pursuit[/url]
(488) June 3, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.khou.com/story/news/crime/2015/06/03/chase-ends--shooting-southeast-houston/28402107/[/url]
(487) June 3, 2015	TX	[url]http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/06/two-men-dead-i-35e-shut-down-in-ellis-county-after-three-hour-chase.html/[/url]
(486) June 2, 2015	TX	[url]http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/06/tarrant-county-sheriffs-deputy-fatally-shoots-azle-man-who-stabbed-three-relatives.html/[/url]
(482) June 1, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kplctv.com/story/29203366/palestine-police-id-victim-in-officer-involved-shooting[/url]
(475) May 29, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.weatherforddemocrat.com/news/sheriff-man-dies-after-struggle-with-deputies-rangers-investigating/article_0517ff1a-065a-11e5-bce1-1f62957193fb.html[/url]
(456) May 25, 2015	TX	[url]http://kxan.com/2015/05/25/woman-shot-dead-after-five-hour-standoff-with-apd-swat-officers/[/url]
(449) May 21, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.elpasotimes.com/latestnews/ci_28159979/officer-involved-shooting-northeast-el-paso[/url]
(422) May 11, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2015/05/11/fort-worth-police-report-officer-involved-shooting/27141917/[/url]
(400, 399) May 3, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/2015/05/03/garland-curtis-culwell-center-swat/26848435/[/url]
(396) April 30, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_28023272/el-paso-police-officer-shot-and-killed-burglary[/url]
(381) April 26, 2015	TX	[url]https://www.victoriaadvocate.com/news/2015/apr/26/victoria-police-respond-shooting-apartment/[/url]
(368) April 23, 2015	TX	[url]http://abc13.com/news/hpd-officer-hits-kills-bicyclist-in-southeast-houston/677753/[/url]
(361) April 22, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article19208262.html[/url]
(356) April 20, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.krgv.com/news/local-news/sheriffs-office-confirms-officer-involved-shooting/32473638[/url]
(353) April 19, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat/news/2015/04/19/man-dies-in-police-custody0.html[/url]
(336) April 15, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.chron.com/houston/article/Shots-fired-at-end-of-police-chase-6201525.php[/url]
(332) April 14, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.katu.com/news/local/colby-robinson-se-portland-murder-wanted-299780361.html[/url]
(330) April 13, 2015	TX	[url]http://abc13.com/news/hpd-off-duty-officer-fatally-shoots-suspect/656854/[/url]
(316) April 8, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Northeast-Side-chase-ends-in-man-s-death-in-6188042.php[/url]
(291) March 31, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.click2houston.com/news/pd-man-with-pellet-gun-shot-dead-by-baytown-police-officer/32108156[/url]
(233) March 17, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.ktre.com/story/28544196/law-enforcement-confirms-officer-involved-shooting-at-gas-station-in-onalaska[/url]
(224) March 14, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kens5.com/story/news/crime/2015/03/14/officer-involved-shooting-leaves-suspect-dead/24754547/[/url]
(219) March 12, 2015	TX	[url]http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/03/man-in-arlington-police-custody-hospitazlied.html/[/url]
(196) March 6, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.ksstradio.com/2015/03/09/texas-rangers-investigate-death-of-inmate/[/url]
(153) February 20, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/One-Shot-During-Police-Stop-in-Grapevine-293089811.html[/url]
(152) February 20, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/2015/02/20/officer-involved-shooting-reported-in-n-harris-county/23751883/[/url]
(146) February 17, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kens5.com/story/news/crime/2015/02/17/mayor-machete-wielding-man-shot-killed-by-police-in-del-rio/23586269/[/url]
(139) February 15, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kgns.tv/news/local/headlines/Police-Answer-Questions-On-Fatal-Officer-Involved-Shooting--292033591.html[/url]
(118) February 9, 2015	TX	[url]http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/02/live-video-dallas-police-on-the-scene-of-officer-involved-shooting-at-bonnie-view-and-i-20.html/[/url]
(117) February 9, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.fox4news.com/story/28058762/montague-county-sheriffs-deputy-shot[/url]
(114) February 8, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.statesman.com/news/news/crime-law/acevedo-austin-police-kill-man-who-fired-at-office/nj6tX/[/url]
(109) February 5, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.texomashomepage.com/story/d/story/update-man-tased-by-deputies-on-287-has-died/12327/-Cbzo4k8DE6GANb1my21Yw[/url]
(104) February 4, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wacotrib.com/news/traffic/officers-shoot-kill-suspected-waco-area-robber-after-high-speed/article_0ad98762-1641-5888-80b2-3797f0b5c9f6.html[/url]
(93) February 2, 2015	TX	[url]http://abc13.com/news/armed-man-shot-killed-at-restaurant/500743/[/url]
(92) January 31, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.click2houston.com/news/hcso-deputy-kills-gunman-after-he-flees-shooting-scene/31024278[/url]
(88) January 29, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article8605565.html[/url]
(85) January 28, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2015/01/28/suspect-shot-in-rural-wise-county/22487953/[/url]
(83) January 28, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.click2houston.com/news/rosenberg-police-shoot-kill-suspect-wanted-in-deadly-shooting/30960552[/url]
(77) January 26, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.everythinglubbock.com/story/d/story/lynn-co-chase-ends-in-crash-officer-involved-shoot/19449/g8Lzux4P5E64-schXceQtQ[/url]
(70) January 24, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_27384771/border-patrol-shoots-kills-man-who-drove-through[/url]
(69) January 23, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.everythinglubbock.com/story/d/story/levelland-police-release-name-after-deadly-officer/13185/r_D6-mz1GE2tY0Frp8HpVg[/url]
(67) January 23, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.kvue.com/story/news/local/2015/01/23/man-dead-in-south-austin-officer-involved-shooting/22207709/[/url]
(66) January 22, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.news-journal.com/news/police/longview-officers-fatally-shoot-woman-who-threatened-them-at-station/article_8688d7d8-a29e-11e4-b7c9-d7ce5c9ad4b6.html[/url]
(63) January 21, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.krgv.com/news/local-news/Border-Patrol-Agent-on-Leave-after-Deadly-Shooting/30850386[/url]
(53) January 17, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article7169225.html[/url]
(50) January 16, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/2015/01/16/one-shot-3-in-custody-after-kaufman-co-police-chase/21880631/[/url]
(47) January 16, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.chron.com/houston/article/HPD-shoots-kills-armed-man-outside-SE-Houston-bar-6019879.php[/url]
(38) January 14, 2015	TX	[url]http://abc13.com/news/man-dead-in-lake-jackson-officer-involved-shooting/474795/[/url]
(33) January 13, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat/news/2015/01/13/police-investigate-officer-involved-shooting-in-jourdanton.html[/url]
(28) January 9, 2015	TX	[url]http://www.elpasotimes.com/latestnews/ci_27293972/police-investigate-possible-shooting-northeast-el-paso[/url]
(19) January 7, 2015	TX	[url]http://abc13.com/news/suspect-killed-in-officer-involved-shooting-in-freeport/465806/[/url]
Total	TX	82

AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Aug 29, 2015

# ? Aug 29, 2015 15:22

Pohl: Jan 28, 2005; In the future, please post shit with the sole purpose of antagonizing the person running this site. Thank you.

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

In what sense?

In the sense of how the public views it and the idea that policing is really scary and dangerous. (which allows cops to get away with the poo poo they do). The cop shot this unarmed person because the cop was scared!

I appreciate you posting the reality of the situation, but no one is going to care about that.

This guy got ambushed killed by one lone nut, police harder!

Should we talk about guns or mental health, or systemic violence by the police against the community they are sworn to serve? Nope. Police harder!

Pohl fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Aug 29, 2015

# ? Aug 29, 2015 20:07

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Dahn posted:

Cop executed in TX

It's just going to get worse.

http://abc13.com/news/suspect-arrested-in-deadly-ambush-on-deputy/961336/

I'm not digging the comments, it destroys their cause. Guy will be found, and I hope the police continue to get the collective PR boot up its rear end from the nation as a whole.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 21:08

pro starcraft loser: Jan 23, 2006; Stand back, this could get messy.

Pohl posted:

In the sense of how the public views it and the idea that policing is really scary and dangerous.

I'm sorry are you really saying having to deal with criminals and crazies on a day to day basis isn't dangerous?

# ? Aug 30, 2015 14:55

Pohl: Jan 28, 2005; In the future, please post shit with the sole purpose of antagonizing the person running this site. Thank you.

Just The Facts posted:

I'm sorry are you really saying having to deal with criminals and crazies on a day to day basis isn't dangerous?

Most police deal with normal people on a day to day basis.
They randomly run into crazy people, which is indeed dangerous as hell.

The problem is, they treat everyone like they are violent and crazy to protect themselves from those random encounters. They can't treat everyone like a normal person, because the next person they may end talking to is crazy or violent.

This makes no sense.

# ? Aug 30, 2015 15:04

MattD1zzl3: Oct 26, 2007; Can't post for 4 years!

quote:

Earlier this month, a police officer in Dayton, Ohio, tailed a man by the name of John Felton for two miles, then pulled him over for failing to use a turn signal 100 feet prior to making his turn. To be clear: Felton used a turn signal, but he apparently didn't put it on early enough.

gently caress yes, they need to continue pulling people over for this. I see this in person and think "Yes, i can see that you intend to turn, you're already moving into the other lane. Why are you bothering to signal?".

*Signal*

*wait 2-3 seconds*

*Begin lane change maneuver*

Can pullovers for "Didnt signal", "Cut a car off" or "Headlights not working" ever not be racism? They always seem to end up on the news.

VvV I know that is what the article said, doesnt change anything for me. I wasnt going to bother to talk about subjects you've made your mind up about. VvV

MattD1zzl3 fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Aug 30, 2015

# ? Aug 30, 2015 16:01

Eugene V. Deadlift: Apr 8, 2013

MattD1zzl3 posted:

gently caress yes, they need to continue pulling people over for this. I see this and think "Yes i can see that you intend to turn, you're already moving into the other lane".

*Signal*

*wait 2-3 seconds*

*Begin lane change maneuver*

Can pullovers for "Didnt signal", "Cut a car off" or "Headlights not working" ever not be racism? They always seem to end up on the news.

Did you watch the video, or even read any of the thread's comments on it?

The officer out and out admits to pulling him over for making eye contact. I mean come on, man.

# ? Aug 30, 2015 16:06

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

MattD1zzl3 posted:

Can pullovers for "Didnt signal", "Cut a car off" or "Headlights not working" ever not be racism? They always seem to end up on the news.

They can, but with police significantly more likely to pull over minorities for the same behavior it becomes complicated to disentangle an individual stop from a clear systemic problem. In most cases ( not this one, see next paragraph) it's going to be impossible to say that a particular stop is motivated by racism - but then how are the overall patterns emerging? How can we have racism without racists?

In this case though, the officer specifically said that he had a problem with a black man not averting his eyes. So yeah...

# ? Aug 30, 2015 16:20

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

Just The Facts posted:

I'm sorry are you really saying having to deal with criminals and crazies on a day to day basis isn't dangerous?

It's dangerous, but not to the level of active duty deployed infantry like they pretend it is. Plenty of professions are more dangerous, from fishing, to logging, and even mundane stuff like driving a taxi. The most dangerous part of being a cop is actually being in a car all day, and the fact remains that there are far, far more instances of police officers intentionally killing members of the public they're supposed to protect and serve than instances of police officers being intentionally killed.

e: Just a thought exercise - if a change in police tactics resulted in a 20% increase in the number of police officers killed per year (that would be about 10 more cops) and this hypothetically resulted in a 10% reduction in deaths of the general public at police hands (this would be more than 100 fewer people), wouldn't that be well worth it?

AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Aug 30, 2015

# ? Aug 30, 2015 16:26

Toasticle: Jul 18, 2003; Hay guys, out this Rape

ActusRhesus posted:

Do you really believe the people most likely to be in the system don't know they have a right to counsel?

I hate quoting people on probation but this has been bugging me and the threads died down so

Career criminals probably know them drat well if they are for lack of a better term high end criminals. High end drug smugglers, organized crime, etc. The younger street level drug sellers and breaking into a house to steal TVs and iPads or stealing cars not a chance that they actually understand what "you have the right to an attorney" actually means. Being told you get a lawyer and anything you say will be used against you is by the legal definition informing them of their rights but in no way explains the importance of excercsing that right or things like if you aren't under arrest or being legally detained you can just say no and leave. A teen is going to be scared shitless and even if it was taught to them are probably not the type to get an A in civics class. Even the ones that did do we really want to base knowledge of your rights on something you learned whe you were 17? Most kids are just going to be memorizing what they need to pass a test and forget it the minute they pass the class. They aren't going to know a cop has zero say in what charges will be filed or what the punishment will be and will likely fall for the "we know you did it just admit it and the judge will go easy on you". Older high school dropouts like the neighborhood smack supplier aren't going to be any better.

I would hope that especially a DA would want to ensure every suspect was properly represented by someone who does know the law, be more interested in making sure justice is being served and that the person being charged is the right person . It depresses the hell out of me to hear someone in your position think if someone is stupid enough to not fully exercise their rights is a 'tough poo poo' situation. I doubt even most adults who get the 'You're not under arrest we just want to get some information' would grasp that telling a cop "Yes I was at [crime scene] but earlier that day and yes I have a CCW permit and a gun in my glovebox" the cop can legally testify "When interviewing X he confirmed he had been the scene of the crime that day and had a gun in his posession".

We should not be basing people knowing their rights on something they were told as a teenager or think that they grasp the importance of those rights or even how to exercise them. "You have the right to an attorney" does not inform them "You do not have to answer any question beyond identifying yourself without your attorney present". As is pointed out repeatedly few people understand the law, making sure they have someone present who does understand that law should be considered vital and not even be allowed to waive that right until a lawyer gets to at least make sure they fully grasp what that means. First timers aren't going to be thinking clearly and could easily believe if they just explain to clear things up they can get this over with and go home once they tell the truth. The cops are not on your side, they aren't there to protect you, that's your attorneys job.

# ? Aug 30, 2015 18:02

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

If you think it is just the poor and uneducated who don't lawyer up, look at Zachary Warren.
His father was a retired notable criminal court jdge, his mother a law professor. He clerked in the 6th circuit.
He had worked for the failed firm dewey years ago before he went to law school. as basically a bill collector. He assumed that they just wanted information and he wasn't a suspect because I assume he didn't think he'd done anything illegal (still not sure he did). He got time off from the 6th circuit appeals judge he worked for who didn't tell him to lawyer up. I assume he also talked to his parents.
Went into the interview alone, flubbed it, ended up charged. Life likely ruined.

# ? Aug 30, 2015 19:36

Toasticle: Jul 18, 2003; Hay guys, out this Rape

nm posted:

If you think it is just the poor and uneducated who don't lawyer up, look at Zachary Warren.
His father was a retired notable criminal court jdge, his mother a law professor. He clerked in the 6th circuit.
He had worked for the failed firm dewey years ago before he went to law school. as basically a bill collector. He assumed that they just wanted information and he wasn't a suspect because I assume he didn't think he'd done anything illegal (still not sure he did). He got time off from the 6th circuit appeals judge he worked for who didn't tell him to lawyer up. I assume he also talked to his parents.
Went into the interview alone, flubbed it, ended up charged. Life likely ruined.

Oh I agree it's a problem all across the spectrum' I was just responding to the claim that people who end up in the system repeatedly is going to somehow make them more knowledgable. Hell the fact that keep getting into the system is likely because they know jack poo poo about their rights.

# ? Aug 30, 2015 21:46

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 30, 2024 19:25

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

MattD1zzl3 posted:

Can pullovers for "Didnt signal", "Cut a car off" or "Headlights not working" ever not be racism? They always seem to end up on the news.

Yeah they can be sure, but this is a pretty weird question to ask about a case where a cop explicitly said he decided to pull the guy over for looking at him and was only using the turn signal as an excuse.

# ? Aug 31, 2015 04:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

«‹›378 »