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here is another poignant philosophical quandary the phrase is called "taking a dump" but you're not taking the poop, you're leaving it behind    
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Sep 1, 2015 05:21
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:why is there a ridiculous philosophical debate itt go take that poo poo to dnd or the other argue forum jesus agreed. lets laugh at funny killmails instead like this one Autopiloting through Uedama with polarized guns and hardeners Otacon fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 05:21
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Voyager I posted:The point I was trying to raise is that even if nobody else in the universe cares, it presumably matters a lot to Mark 1, and the process doesn't get off the ground without people willing to commit literal suicide. This is probably what Infomorph Psychology is all about -- coming to terms will killing yourself as a means of furthering your goals. Maybe this is what is loving with the Jove psyche so hard. The ramifications of doing this generationally.
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Sep 1, 2015 05:23
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Why the gently caress are you guys putting one xlasb on a golem?
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Sep 1, 2015 05:25
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:why is there a ridiculous philosophical debate itt go take that poo poo to dnd or the other argue forum jesus Let the nerds continue waxing philosophical. I actually find it really neat to listen to. 
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Sep 1, 2015 05:32
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Kiryen posted:True. Bubbles are fine, they're one of the few things that can create a fight. Except against interceptors trollolol. Use a scout. Complain about something that's actually broken.
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Sep 1, 2015 05:35
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Wolfy posted:Why the gently caress are you guys putting one xlasb on a golem? just to test one rep cycle in EFT
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Sep 1, 2015 05:51
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I'd rather have food chat than philosophy chat
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Sep 1, 2015 06:28
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nullEntityRNG posted:Let the nerds continue waxing philosophical. I actually find it really neat to listen to. http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=162
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Sep 1, 2015 07:13
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Chili talk just started in the Star Citizen thread. Literally always getting your leftovers, thanks thread.
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Sep 1, 2015 07:44
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CashEnsign posted:Chili talk just started in the Star Citizen thread. Literally always getting your leftovers, thanks thread. You're welcome.
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Sep 1, 2015 08:06
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CashEnsign posted:Chili talk just started in the Star Citizen thread. Literally always getting your leftovers, thanks thread. I don't see how that could be off topic. Surely a chili cooking stretch goal has already been added. $300.000 and you can now cook chili while flying your space ship.
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Sep 1, 2015 08:38
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Hexel posted:Who wants to tear down the absurd amount of towers in deklein BUSA would.
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Sep 1, 2015 08:38
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Hexel posted:CCP's dream and balancing goal is small alliances living in constellations next to each other and fighting for ~reasons~ in small gangs of fast kitey ships and living the pvp dream. Reminder that CCP has also talked about the terrible patchwork in provi as their vision for sov null.
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Sep 1, 2015 09:07
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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quote:In a way, a capsuleer travels from body to body like a ghost. And I can say this and contradict you because we're talking about science in the year 10000, so I don't have to be restrained by what we think we know today about how this works. EVE-lore doesn't contradict me here, so from my view point, there's no problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infomorph
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Sep 1, 2015 10:26
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blowfish posted:Reminder that CCP has also talked about the terrible patchwork in provi as their vision for sov null. Ironic that while small alliances do live in their own constellations there, none of them fight each other and they only really get to fight people who are coming far from "home".
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Sep 1, 2015 11:20
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Sunber posted:Ironic that while small alliances do live in their own constellations there, none of them fight each other and they only really get to fight people who are coming far from "home". I'm sure most people in CCP don't understand this. They barely understand how players actually play in the sandbox; politics are beyond them. Please, someone on the CSM correct me.
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Sep 1, 2015 11:33
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Voyager I posted:You're still not quite getting it. Mark 1 doesn't get immortality. Neither does Mark 2 or any of the other Marks that come to follow. They each get a single life, starting from the moment they are created (presumably birth for Mark 1, clone activation for Marks 2+) and ending when they eventually die. An infinite series of Marks is not the same thing as one Mark living forever. You are correct in that there is a distinction between the physical form of the person--but it is still technically 'you' by nature of having your consciousness. Depending on your philosophical beliefs of what defines a 'person' as well as if there are any physical or psychological distinguishing factors: if you adhere to philosophers such as Descartes, Plato, and Dualism you'll see that you are very much so still Mark 1 despite not being in the original Mark 1 body. In EVE for capsuleers, suicide is only bodily and thus has no real importance since the act of suicide no longer destroys the capability for your conscious thought to endure in a bodily vessel.
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Sep 1, 2015 12:18
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Hazdoc posted:There's a reason why the skill for jump clones is called "Informorph Psychology". Capsuleers are basically baby level infomorphs, while its implied that Sleepers and Drifters are more advanced infomorphs. I like the ending especially, noting that an internet footprint / informorphic footprint could be left after someone dies, so : Hello!.jpg is immortal. Just as an aside, as these capuslers have no free will, they are, after all, controlled by outside agents : computers or us, without us interacting with them, they are just meat puppets. so meat puppet mark one is zapped to make mark 0 meat puppet. as neither mark has any consciousness other than what we instill in them, or write in their bio. the question of observable difference both to the marks or to the onlooker is indeed, negligible. Jim Bob. staberind fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 12:43
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ullerrm posted:*infomorph psychology theory* Voyager I posted:*death-related sophistry* What I took away from this discourse: yes, jump clones are single-use only and all our brains turn to mush. It helps if you think of your character's mind and memories as the contents of a hard disk. If one computer ceases to function and you have an identical model available, you can simply transfer the contents of the disk - operating system and all - onto the other machine and boot it up. Technically you do 'die' when podded in the sense that you physically cease to be a living organism, your broken body with its busted implants left drifting near your shattered pod waiting for someone to scoop it up and do distasteful things to it. However, the patterns of synaptic activity and fractal neuronal architecture that make you 'you' are preserved as a computerized pattern, easily replicable with the Jovian-derived technology of the 201st century. All you need is a fresh medical or jump clone out of the wrapper and you can stumble back out into the big, bad galaxy and count your losses. If absolutely everything about you is replicated in this process, then yes, your soul comes along for the ride regardless of what the Amarrian scriptures have to say about it.
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Sep 1, 2015 13:03
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Unfunny Poster posted:BUSA would. i don't think you have any idea how many towers there are in deklein, theres a reactor farm in nearly every station system i think tower killmails would get old after the first thousand and then you'd probably have a lot more to go evilweasel fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 14:01
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Kiryen posted:True. You are dumb and bad and everything you have said on this topic is terrible. Bubbles are a good thing that does not need to be changed. There is skill involved in using them, and there is skilled counterplay involved in evading them. I legitimately don't remember the last time I didn't manage to run a gatecamp. I've run a gatecamp in a goddamn panther before. Nullification is a bad thing that does need to be changed (to a lesser extent on t3s). There is no skill involved in using it, and there is no skilled counterplay involved in evading it. I have never caught an interceptor on a gate. I've never seen someone catch an interceptor on a gate. I have never spoken with someone who has shared an anecdote about their pal who caught an interceptor on a gate. I can count the number of nullified t3s I've caught on a gate or seen caught on a gate on one hand.
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Sep 1, 2015 14:35
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evilweasel posted:i don't think you have any idea how many towers there are in deklein, theres a reactor farm in nearly every station system Yep, even with them all offline and using a giant pile of supers it would still take you FOREVER to clear them.
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Sep 1, 2015 14:35
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ullerrm posted:
This might be an aside, but how the hell does a language like Icelandic - which is so old-fashioned you can literally plug Old Norse texts into Google Translate with Icelandic as the selected language and end up with somewhat intelligible translations - handle futuristic technical concepts? I keep imagining it would sound like Uncleftish Beholding. "And lo! The brain-stuff did get filled with the mind-ghost of the pod-man!"
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Sep 1, 2015 14:38
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Voyager I posted:You're still not quite getting it. Mark 1 doesn't get immortality. Neither does Mark 2 or any of the other Marks that come to follow. They each get a single life, starting from the moment they are created (presumably birth for Mark 1, clone activation for Marks 2+) and ending when they eventually die. An infinite series of Marks is not the same thing as one Mark living forever. Mark 1 doesnt get immortality, sure. Mark, however, does, whether it be in mark 1, mark 2, or mark (arbitrarily large integer). Basically, this: dialhforhero posted:You are correct in that there is a distinction between the physical form of the person--but it is still technically 'you' by nature of having your consciousness. Depending on your philosophical beliefs of what defines a 'person' as well as if there are any physical or psychological distinguishing factors: if you adhere to philosophers such as Descartes, Plato, and Dualism you'll see that you are very much so still Mark 1 despite not being in the original Mark 1 body. In EVE for capsuleers, suicide is only bodily and thus has no real importance since the act of suicide no longer destroys the capability for your conscious thought to endure in a bodily vessel. You are your identity. There is nothing else. A body without a functional brain is just a big unpiloted bio-mech while a consciousness running even without a body would still have the recognizable personality of that person. The consciousness is what makes the person. So as long as that consciousness lives, so does the person (bonus points if that consciousness is living in a genetically identical body). Basically, the entire thing is a reworking of the ship of theseus. For me the consciousness is what makes a human a human, and you seem to think that the body is somehow vital.
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Sep 1, 2015 14:50
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HappyKitty posted:This might be an aside, but how the hell does a language like Icelandic - which is so old-fashioned you can literally plug Old Norse texts into Google Translate with Icelandic as the selected language and end up with somewhat intelligible translations - handle futuristic technical concepts? I keep imagining it would sound like Uncleftish Beholding. The same way it handles modern concepts: some languages simply borrow from other languages (loanwords/calques), other languages cobble words together from existing adjectives, adverbs and nouns which most accurately describe the object or concept (German is notorious for this, it's how modern German ended up with all those impossibly long words). Uncleftish Beholding was an amazing read, thanks for that. It's like reading King Ethelred's attempt at explaining nuclear fission to his subjects.
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Sep 1, 2015 14:57
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ChickenWing posted:You are dumb and bad and everything you have said on this topic is terrible. Thank you for writing this. I saw Kiryen's post and was just  .
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Sep 1, 2015 15:15
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evilweasel posted:i don't think you have any idea how many towers there are in deklein, theres a reactor farm in nearly every station system I think you're underestimating the pure joy those guys get from taking and operating POS/money moons.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:20
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Unfunny Poster posted:I think you're underestimating the pure joy those guys get from taking and operating POS/money moons. most of the pos in deklein aren't on money moons
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Sep 1, 2015 15:20
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Glory of Arioch posted:most of the pos in deklein aren't on money moons I still don't think BUSA would care. Like I said, they have a hard on for owning/setting up POS', it's a problem.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:21
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Unfunny Poster posted:I still don't think BUSA would care. Like I said, they have a hard on for owning/setting up POS', it's a problem. how is that a problem, setting up infrastructure where you live and investing in your space is cool + good 
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Sep 1, 2015 15:49
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I don't know why  just hasn't gone the route of treating your pod as a type of ship, and the implants would be modules for the pod. It presents the neat solution of being able to now have implants that are still destructible upon death, but tidies up the whole medical vs jump clone debate. Have high grade snakes installed in pod (x) in YA0, have a pod of learning implants installed in pod (y) in Jita, have cheap combat focused implants in pod (z) wherever you the current warzone is. That way if you die in a pod with implants those implants go poof, but if you are in a pod with no implants nothing is destroyed. Now you have an actual (plausible) explanation of why implants get destroyed. Bonus points if could then actually make implants a potential loot item.Also since I'm rambling I might as well also chime in on interdiction nullification. I also favor the mechanic that hics get a special bubble script that makes their bubble cancel any and all forms of nullification. That leaves the slightest risk that a gate camp might actually catch people that have previously traveled with impunity. Bonus, it actually makes hics useful again outside of capital fights.
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Sep 1, 2015 16:04
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Glory of Arioch posted:here is another poignant philosophical quandary Why do we add the letter "D" when we abbreviate refrigerator?
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Sep 1, 2015 16:20
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grumplestiltzkin posted:You are your identity. There is nothing else. A body without a functional brain is just a big unpiloted bio-mech while a consciousness running even without a body would still have the recognizable personality of that person. The consciousness is what makes the person. So as long as that consciousness lives, so does the person (bonus points if that consciousness is living in a genetically identical body). Basically, the entire thing is a reworking of the ship of theseus. For me the consciousness is what makes a human a human, and you seem to think that the body is somehow vital. Right. I'm down with dualism too, but multiple copies of the same consciousness are still distinct individuals, without regard to their physical forms. The EVE process doesn't preserve consciousness. It terminates one consciousness, which I would identify as death, and then produces a replica of the brain that consciousness emerged from with sufficient detail to create a new consciousness that is functionally identical, but still not the same individual. It's also worth noting that pure dualism has flaws in that the physical condition of our brains very much affects the mind that emerges from them. ScreamingLlama posted:If absolutely everything about you is replicated in this process, then yes, your soul comes along for the ride regardless of what the Amarrian scriptures have to say about it. It's important to keep in mind that death is not actually a necessary part of the cloning process in EVE; it's simply a technological limitation of their scanning technology. It doesn't matter to the output if you live or die, because they're not putting you in the new body. If they could perform non-invasive live scans, you could easily make a copy of a person and have them both running around. Even with EVE scanning, capsuleers can and have created multiple clones that functioned simultaneously. What happens to the soul then, if you think souls exist? There is an important distinction between a person, as defined by their memories, personality traits, etc, and an individual, which is a distinct entity with a unique perspective. You can create multiple copies of the same person, but each of them will be their own individuals.
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Sep 1, 2015 16:26
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grumplestiltzkin posted:Mark 1 doesnt get immortality, sure. Mark, however, does, whether it be in mark 1, mark 2, or mark (arbitrarily large integer). Basically, this: While I agree your consciousness is your identity, that is still something that is destroyed and then copied. It is a copy of your consciousness and not you. Your consciousness is just a product of your neural pathways anyway. It does have a direct link to your body. You don't think your physical body has had an effect on who you are ?
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Sep 1, 2015 16:35
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ChickenWing posted:Nullification is a bad thing that does need to be changed (to a lesser extent on t3s). There is no skill involved in using it, and there is no skilled counterplay involved in evading it. I have never caught an interceptor on a gate. I've never seen someone catch an interceptor on a gate. I have never spoken with someone who has shared an anecdote about their pal who caught an interceptor on a gate. I can count the number of nullified t3s I've caught on a gate or seen caught on a gate on one hand. I can't comprehend why warp core stabilizers have such a heavy penalty for use, while at the same time there's this super WCS-like effect built into hulls that costs no module slots or fitting ability, doesn't penalize combat ability, doesn't prevent fast align times, doesn't preclude covert cloaks and is altogether far more flexible in every way. While I don't necessarily think interdiction nullification should be removed, it should at least be an optional module with very significant drawbacks for those who choose to equip it.
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Sep 1, 2015 16:36
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Metaphysics in spaceships games is srs bsnsVoyager I posted:Right. I'm down with dualism too, but multiple copies of the same consciousness are still distinct individuals, without regard to their physical forms. The EVE process doesn't preserve consciousness. It terminates one consciousness, which I would identify as death, and then produces a replica of the brain that consciousness emerged from with sufficient detail to create a new consciousness that is functionally identical, but still not the same individual. It's also worth noting that pure dualism has flaws in that the physical condition of our brains very much affects the mind that emerges from them. Upon the moment of cloning all the clones are, in every meaningful way, the same person. As those clones live their lives and gain different experiences their personalities will nessecarily differ as a result of those experiences, creating different people. But in the first moment of cloning, they are all starting from the same place and are the same person. The particular chunks of meat they happen to inhabit are not important. Voyager I posted:It's important to keep in mind that death is not actually a necessary part of the cloning process in EVE; it's simply a technological limitation of their scanning technology. It doesn't matter to the output if you live or die, because they're not putting you in the new body. If they could perform non-invasive live scans, you could easily make a copy of a person and have them both running around. Even with EVE scanning, capsuleers can and have created multiple clones that functioned simultaneously. What happens to the soul then, if you think souls exist? Didn't  just post that the process necessarily destroys the brain in the process? Sure there's the "we could make multiple copies" thing, but each of those copies would have an equal and valid claim to being the person who was cloned. They are literally identical in every meaningful way. It would create messy legal situations to be sure, but that's a separate issue.Voyager I posted:There is an important distinction between a person, as defined by their memories, personality traits, etc, and an individual, which is a distinct entity with a unique perspective. You can create multiple copies of the same person, but each of them will be their own individuals. Until you quantify what the distinction between a person and an individual is it will, to me, continue to be a meaningless distinction that smacks of ~but muh soul~. If you're just trying to say that the same person cannot inhabit multiple bodies, then feel free to explain why, because I don't see any reason why that couldn't be the case (especially given that they will become distinct over time as their experiences vary). Again, it would create weird legal scenarios, but thats a separate issue. goodness posted:While I agree your consciousness is your identity, that is still something that is destroyed and then copied. It is a copy of your consciousness and not you. From the capsuleers perspective when being podded, they black out then wake up in a station. If that counts as death, then you die every time to go to sleep or are anesthetized. When you understand why that doesn't make sense, you'll understand why your position doesn't make sense. The only way your position makes sense is if personhood is somehow inextricably tied to the pile of flesh and bones that carries around your brain.
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Sep 1, 2015 17:26
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"We can't figure out the chemical imbalance problem in your brain that causes jump fatigue, but we can totally scan a brain in two seconds and recreate it almost* identically."
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Sep 1, 2015 17:28
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Hey globby is this you? https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3j8lkl/eve_news_exploit_notification_delaying_concord/
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Sep 1, 2015 17:47
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grumplestiltzkin posted:
Uh what: when you go to sleep and wake up you are still the same body, same brain, same neurons making your consciousness. When you get cloned it is a copy of them. And you missed that I explained that your physical body makes up a part of your consciousness. It is a major contributor to who you are today mentally , has influenced a lot of your actions. You would not be the same person if your thoughts had come about in a different body. Being the same in "every meaningful way" is not equal to being the same actually. goodness fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 17:59
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