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What hot hatch do you own? This poll is closed. |
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| Golf GTI / R / R32 |
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196 | 0.02% |
| Impreza WRX / STi |
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133 | 0.01% |
| Mazdaspeed 3 |
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92 | 0.01% |
| Veloster Turbo |
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20 | 0.00% |
| Focus ST |
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149 | 0.01% |
| Other Hot Hatch |
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230 | 0.02% |
| Elantra GT |
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1000001 | 99.92% |
| Total: | 1000821 votes | ||
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Ehud posted:I mean, it's just a fact of life that you get what you pay for. Of course a cheap hot hatch is going to be of worse quality than a luxury sports car. Is it reasonable to expect my 20K econobox to have been built with all the parts it was supposed to have? Because mine wasn't. Again, I'm not saying the car is lovely in comparison to my old Porsche. I'm not saying the car is lovely in comparison to my old BMW, or my old Miata. Y'all keep trying to apologize for the lovely condition Ford's delivered the car to me in by trying to say I'm comparing it to *x car costing so much more get over it*, but there's no excuse for the car to be delivered to the owner misaligned and missing parts from the factory. The Prong Song fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 18:01
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I mean, only one of your litany of complaints was actually about missing parts and pretty much all cars get delivered misaligned from the factory due to transport. The missing parts are on Ford, the alignment is on the dealer. The other complaints are either emissions controls, or $15k econobox build quality complaints.
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Sep 1, 2015 18:07
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veedubfreak posted:Should have waited for the R or the RS. Naw man, you're missing the point. I'm being told to expect that regardless of the price, the components shared with the base car will be poo poo. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I mean, only one of your litany of complaints was actually about missing parts and pretty much all cars get delivered misaligned from the factory due to transport. The missing parts are on Ford, the alignment is on the dealer. Things that were a problem I've fixed on my own? Weak rear motor mount making the engine knock into the firewall on hard shifting and wonky shifting under lateral g-load, and a too-small intercooler for sustained hard driving. Things that are annoying but expected: The keyless entry system doesn't automatically lock the car when you walk off, stalling after a fill-up unless you give it throttle, the body panels are poorly QC'd, the sunroof slat lets in light even when clo There's no point in trying to defend my statements because you're asserting that buying a cheap car means that I can't expect it to be well-put-together. Whoops, I expected my factory-new car to have been put together better than it apparently was. Cheap materials, sure. Not a huge set of features? Alright. Design compromises to save money? Fine. Missing and misaligned parts? No, that should have been caught by QC before it left the factory. Software "features" that increase wear on parts? No thanks. I'm sure I'd find it perfectly amazing and high-quality if all I'd driven was other ~$20K econoboxes before. Sure.
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Sep 1, 2015 18:34
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Sigma X posted:Naw man, you're missing the point. I'm being told to expect that regardless of the price, the components shared with the base car will be poo poo. The level of QC you get is directly related to base price. Better panel alignment requires personal attention, which means more people and/or a slower production line. Focus is a high volume inexpensive car. The level of personal attention each car (including STs) gets is a product of that. If you want Porsche levels of QC and component selection, buy a Porsche. You can get 2-10 STs (depending on which Porsche) for what one of them costs. Edit: hot hatches are awesome, but this is a good portion of why I went Mustang (designed around an average transaction price of 28k or so) instead of a FoST (atp of 18k or so) ilkhan fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 19:04
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No no no no. You poors don't understand. My Porsche didn't have these problems, so they are unacceptable.
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Sep 1, 2015 19:17
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LeeMajors posted:No no no no. You poors don't understand. My Porsche didn't have these problems, so they are unacceptable. Man, you are really butthurt over the cars I've owned in the past, aren't you?
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Sep 1, 2015 19:19
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Sigma X posted:Man, you are really butthurt over the cars I've owned in the past, aren't you? No, I just think you're really silly. Silly enough to bring me out of lurking to mention it. Anyways...i'm done making GBS threads up the thread. Carry on.
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Sep 1, 2015 19:24
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I can't drive my Focus ST knowing I have a door panel slightly out of alignment. Who am I kidding, I drive the poo poo out of my car. Its a collection of metal and plastic, it will take you to your therapist just as well as a Porsche. But someone might point and laugh at that panel.
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Sep 1, 2015 20:46
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RIP Paul Walker posted:I also went from a "lifetime" of European cars to a Ford hatchback and I agree with your observations (tho my dealer is ok-ish and give me loaners). I think they were going after our market demographic but underestimated how much of a drat we give about "fit" and not tolerating lazy halfass poo poo on a brand new mass-production car made in TYOOL 2015. The things is the Fiesta is essentially a European car. It certainly isn't any worse built compared to it's contemporaries (maybe the Polo is a little better, but nothing out of France or Italy is).
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Sep 1, 2015 21:51
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My European hatch doesn't have any of these problems. 
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Sep 1, 2015 22:21
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ilkhan posted:Yes, that's exactly what you are being told. You are paying extra for the turbo and suspension components and different (not necessarily better, just different) body/interior panels. The base those components are being upgraded from is still a $15k Focus. Paying extra for high grade mustard doesn't make a cheap hot dog less of a hot dog. Which isn't to disparage the Focus. It's a great little car for what it is. But don't expect more than a Focus simply because you paid $25k instead of $15k. Exactly. I paid about 20% less for the FoST than I did for my 128i. The FoST is way, way, way, way shittier - because every component that isn't especially ST-ified is partsbin poo poo from a $15k car, and everything not specific to the 1-series was partsbin poo poo from a $35k car. There's a big difference there. I understand being mad about quite a few things, especially around missing parts and the lovely motor mount, but about half the complaints are patently absurd at the price point. Sigma X posted:I'm sure I'd find it perfectly amazing and high-quality if all I'd driven was other ~$20K econoboxes before. Sure. Nobody is saying that the ST is amazing and high-quality. Everyone is trying to tell you that it is put together like the $15k car that it is.
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Sep 1, 2015 22:31
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veedubfreak posted:My European hatch doesn't have any of these problems. Maybe not, but poor/inconsistent build quality isn't exactly unheard of in Volkswagen group products either.
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Sep 1, 2015 22:39
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Sigma X posted:Software "features" that increase wear on parts? No thanks. I'm still pretty confused by this. I've been driving my Fiesta since February 2014 and I still don't have this problem. It's apparently a thing since it pops up in google searches, but I don't see any proof that it exists. Can you film the rev hang while you shift for me or something? My Fiesta revs and shifts like every other manual car I've owned.
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Sep 1, 2015 23:43
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BoostCreep posted:I'm still pretty confused by this. I've been driving my Fiesta since February 2014 and I still don't have this problem. It's apparently a thing since it pops up in google searches, but I don't see any proof that it exists. Can you film the rev hang while you shift for me or something? My Fiesta revs and shifts like every other manual car I've owned. I can corroborate the infuriating rev hang; basically, it feels like the flywheel in my 2015 FiST is 20 pounds. When you depress the clutch, regardless of the speed you disengage the clutch or the current engine RPM, there's a noticeable ~.5-1 second lag where the revs hang absolutely flat. No other manual I've driven, even the very similar drivetrain base model 2015 Fiesta and 2014 Focus, have this pronounced of a delay before the revs start to drop. It basically means you're 100-200 RPM higher than you anticipate when upshifting, and I have bounced the limiter uncomfortably hard on a few downshifts because I expect the revs to drop like normal. I've also experienced frustration with the lowered redline/fuel cutoff in the 2015, although that was much easier to learn to compensate for. Fortunately a Cobb AP fixes both of these issues, so that's the first mod on my list. I'm tempted to go full Cobb 'stage 1' for the RMM and drop-in air filter, the $150 over bare AP price is really tempting.
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Sep 2, 2015 02:56
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I already want a louder exhaust  Wish they would just put a proper exhaust on the car instead of making it quiet then adding the stupid soundaktor junk.
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Sep 2, 2015 17:48
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veedubfreak posted:I already want a louder exhaust I very much enjoy the turbo noise over exhaust. I don't need loud blaps, all I need is the wooOOOOSH tss and all is right in the world. That said I'm sure there are all sorts of things you can do for your exhaust. I've got about 7k miles left on the factory warranty and then it's off to APR.
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Sep 2, 2015 20:02
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BoostCreep posted:I'm still pretty confused by this. I've been driving my Fiesta since February 2014 and I still don't have this problem. It's apparently a thing since it pops up in google searches, but I don't see any proof that it exists. Can you film the rev hang while you shift for me or something? My Fiesta revs and shifts like every other manual car I've owned. There are two "rev hangs". The first I've already experienced in many other DBWT cars, which is that the revs stay still for a split second, or even jump up, when the clutch is disengaged. The one I'm bothered by is the "hang" at the proper RPM if I was going into the next gear up, IE if I was shifting from 3rd-4th rather than 3rd-6th. EDIT: It's in the video description, but in this video I'm shifting to 3rd, accelerating, declutching, shifting to sixth, and leaving the clutch out as the revs hang at 4K-ish RPM, and then re-engaging the clutch when the revs drop to correct for the gear I'm in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCGfJP5SVwk
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Sep 3, 2015 01:42
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That doesn't happen in mine at all, But I have an early 2014 with a higher redline. Car is loving awesome so far though, just cracked 24k miles and it still feels showroom fresh and I beat the absolute piss out of it every single day.
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Sep 3, 2015 19:04
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Mine does the same thing as in the video and I hate it when trying to go 2->6 after having a bit of fun off the line but staying under the speed limit. January 2015 build date with the weird redline.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:56
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Sigma X posted:There are two "rev hangs". The first I've already experienced in many other DBWT cars, which is that the revs stay still for a split second, or even jump up, when the clutch is disengaged. The one I'm bothered by is the "hang" at the proper RPM if I was going into the next gear up, IE if I was shifting from 3rd-4th rather than 3rd-6th. Ok, so I do have the lower redline and the rev hang. I guess I never noticed or worried about it as it doesn't affect my driving style. Is there physical proof that it wears the clutch disc faster?
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Sep 3, 2015 23:30
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The only time I ever see people complain about it is in relation to skipping gears while upshifting. There's going to be a completely negligible amount of clutch wear because the revs are higher than expected for how fast you're moving but it's such a small difference that people who complain about it just seen like they are looking for something to complain about. I don't skip gears, it doesn't affect me any.
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Sep 3, 2015 23:52
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I just went on a 1500 mile road trip and averaged 34 MPG in my Focus ST. I thought the drat thing was lying to me.
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Sep 4, 2015 03:26
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Bob A Feet posted:I just went on a 1500 mile road trip and averaged 34 MPG in my Focus ST. I thought the drat thing was lying to me. Nice, never topped 31 in mine.
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Sep 4, 2015 03:44
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My gauge tells me 26mpg pretty much constant. I haven't tracked it manually yet.
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Sep 4, 2015 04:13
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GutBomb posted:The only time I ever see people complain about it is in relation to skipping gears while upshifting. The amount of clutch wear experienced due to the rev hang is equivalent to doing 3.5K clutch drop launches from stoplights everytime I accelerate to get on a highway, that's not negligible, hth. The Ferret King posted:My gauge tells me 26mpg pretty much constant. I haven't tracked it manually yet. Now that I'm past the break-in period, I'm averaging right on 28 MPG in the FiST. I just wish it didn't have such a small tank.
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Sep 4, 2015 12:53
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Sigma X posted:The amount of clutch wear experienced due to the rev hang is equivalent to doing 3.5K clutch drop launches from stoplights everytime I accelerate to get on a highway, that's not negligible, hth. Except for the fact that it's really not. We can test it out. You actually do a bunch of 3.5k clutch drop launches, and I drive normally and we'll see who's clutch lasts longer.
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Sep 4, 2015 14:25
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GutBomb posted:Except for the fact that it's really not. We can test it out. You actually do a bunch of 3.5k clutch drop launches, and I drive normally and we'll see who's clutch lasts longer. That's a pretty brute-force method. Let's try using our heads. Calculating a figure for the "wear rate" means determining the difference in RPM, and that means we need the amount of time it takes the car's wheels' speed to match the engine's spinning rate. Since I don't have actual kinetic friction coefficient figures on hand, let's just call that figure "x". The end result will be arbitrary, but we can compare figures using this method to themselves for a relative value. That x accounts for how much grip the clutch disc has against the flywheel while it's slipping. We'll ignore the "fully gripping" scenario, because static friction between the clutch and flywheel won't be achieved until RPMs match. Multiply the inverse of the drive gear ratio plus final gear ratio by x to find out how much the wheels will increase their turning speed to match the turning speed of the engine before matching RPM. The FiST "normally"drops 1000 RPM per second. 1st gear is 3.72:1 2nd gear is 2.05:1 3rd gear is 1.36:1 4th gear is 1.03:1 5th gear is 0.82:1 6th gear is 0.69:1 Final drive is 3.82:1 Clutch-dropping from a stop at 3500 RPM generates wear of 3500*(x(1/(3.72+3.82))) = 464x Clutch-dropping from a stop at 1100 RPM generates wear of 1100*(x(1/(3.72+3.82))) = 145x So the difference in clutch dropping from a stop at a normal start-off RPM and clutch-dropping from a stop at 3500 RPM is 319x "wear". As a baseline: Shifting out of 3rd and into 4th takes .5 second, and would generate wear of ((5500-4100)-(1000*0.5))*(x(1/(1.03+3.82))) = 185x Shifting out of 3rd and into 6th takes 1.0 second, and would generate wear of ((5500-2600)-(1000*1.0)*(x(1/(0.69+3.82))) = 421x ; but this assumes we're only waiting for the RPM to drop for as long as it physically takes us to move the gearshift from 3rd to 6th. So the difference in shifting between 3rd and 4th and 3rd and 6th would be 236x "wear". The amount of time it would "normally" take RPMs to drop from the 3rd gear shifting point of 5500 RPM to the proper no-slip engagement point of 6th at 2600 RPM is 2.9 seconds. The rev hang occurs for 1.9 seconds. The difference between rev-hang shifting after 2.9 seconds and no-hang shifting at 2.9 seconds is 1000 RPM. So, the clutch experiences an additional 1000*(x(1/0.69+382)) = 221x extra "wear" due to the rev hang. 2/3rds as bad as clutch-dropping at 3500 RPM, but not harmless - unless you're willing to wait 4.8 seconds in neutral between 3rd and 6th.
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Sep 4, 2015 15:55
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Sigma X posted:That's a pretty brute-force method. Let's try using our heads. Or you could, you know, shift to 4th, then to 5th, then to 6th.
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Sep 4, 2015 15:56
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GutBomb posted:The only time I ever see people complain about it is in relation to skipping gears while upshifting. I skip gears all the time in my GTI. It's just too much fun going from 0-60 (1st > 2nd > 6th for cruise at speed limits) Is this bad? My car even tells me to skip gears (3>5) sometimes.
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Sep 4, 2015 16:03
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GutBomb posted:Or you could, you know, shift to 4th, then to 5th, then to 6th. Shhh. Let him create issues.
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Sep 4, 2015 16:03
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lol seriously why are you shifting from 3rd to 6th lmao
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Sep 4, 2015 16:06
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AnimalChin posted:I skip gears all the time in my GTI. It's just too much fun going from 0-60 (1st > 2nd > 6th for cruise at speed limits) I skip second to sixth all the time and my car is fine and therefore it will always be fine. Just do what you want bros. Its a car.
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Sep 4, 2015 16:30
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Long as you give the engine time to spin down before releasing the clutch pedal again there's no extra wear. Double clutching will reduce wear on the synchros, but it's not a huge deal in the big picture.
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Sep 4, 2015 16:50
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ilkhan posted:Long as you give the engine time to spin down before releasing the clutch pedal again there's no extra wear. Double clutching will reduce wear on the synchros, but it's not a huge deal in the big picture. The point of this discussion is that the Fiesta ST does "something" to keep the revs up longer while the clutch pedal is down, it's in the ECU and it's colloquially known as rev hang. It exists to make shifts smoother. It causes a very negligible amount of extra wear on a clutch when shifting normally, but from the perspective of "feel" it's barely (if at all) noticeable while shifting normally. It's really only noticeable when skipping gears while upshifting. Some cars (most) you can skip gears when upshifting with no issue, like the VW mentioned previously. Some cars you're not supposed to skip gears. This would be one of them, along with others like the S2000. I was always told it's better not to skip gears, probably old advice from years before synchros. But it's just stuck with me and I don't skip gears. It's good advice for this particular car since it has a rev hang feature. If you hate it, you can tune it out with a Cobb AP, but the only time it ever presents a problem it's in edge cases like this. It's not a fatal flaw of the car and it's not a big deal.
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Sep 4, 2015 17:00
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GutBomb posted:The point of this discussion is that the Fiesta ST does "something" to keep the revs up longer while the clutch pedal is down, it's in the ECU and it's colloquially known as rev hang. It exists to make shifts smoother. It causes a very negligible amount of extra wear on a clutch when shifting normally, but from the perspective of "feel" it's barely (if at all) noticeable while shifting normally. It's really only noticeable when skipping gears while upshifting. Some cars (most) you can skip gears when upshifting with no issue, like the VW mentioned previously. Some cars you're not supposed to skip gears. This would be one of them, along with others like the S2000. I was always told it's better not to skip gears, probably old advice from years before synchros. But it's just stuck with me and I don't skip gears. It's good advice for this particular car since it has a rev hang feature. If you hate it, you can tune it out with a Cobb AP, but the only time it ever presents a problem it's in edge cases like this. It's not a fatal flaw of the car and it's not a big deal.
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Sep 4, 2015 17:30
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fyodor posted:lol seriously why are you shifting from 3rd to 6th lmao Because you're done accelerating and see no purpose in pointlessly shifting two more times to get to the gear you want to be in? It's not a sequential gearbox, why shouldn't I want to skip gears? Second gear is enough for any legal speed on a surface street and third will get you well in to ticket territory on most highways in the world. If you're bored and screwing around flooring it off from a light or up an onramp you'd run hard through first, second, and maybe third, then you're at the speed you want to be at and are going plenty fast for sixth gear. Why not go right there rather than popping in to fourth and fifth just to pop right back out?
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Sep 4, 2015 18:11
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wolrah posted:Why not go right there rather than popping in to fourth and fifth just to pop right back out? Because: ilkhan posted:Long as you give the engine time to spin down before releasing the clutch pedal again there's no extra wear. Double clutching will reduce wear on the synchros, but it's not a huge deal in the big picture. The fifth-gear synchro on my NB Miata eventually got a bit unhappy because I did 1-2-5 too many times without giving it enough time to slow down. Not enough to make shifting 3-5 or 4-5 any sort of a problem, but enough that (when I last drove it a few years ago) you had to wait to do a 2-5 shift. This was over the course of, say, 50-60k miles, but not something I'd intentionally do anymore.
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Sep 4, 2015 18:21
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IOwnCalculus posted:Because: Your first quote explains the problem. It's not like I'm trying to slam the car in to 6th, I know how a manual transmission works and try to slip it in to gear when the revs are at the appropriate point. This stupid "feature" makes that a lot harder to do because you have to wait out the computer. If it didn't do the rev hold it'd be down to a matching speed in around a second.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:41
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read a fiesta st review on jalopnik that said the fiesta st is better than the focus st: all the fun but for less money and less bulky. also said that if you want the extra room you should be buying a wrx anyways  can someone validate these statements as i was looking at the focus st but maybe i want the fiesta st?
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Sep 4, 2015 22:58
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fyodor posted:read a fiesta st review on jalopnik that said the fiesta st is better than the focus st: all the fun but for less money and less bulky. also said that if you want the extra room you should be buying a wrx anyways We wish we would have gotten the Focus. At the time, the Focus was barely anymore money and any handling or dynamics benefit the Fiesta has over the Focus is not apparent during the normal commute. We mostly miss the benefit of having more space.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:09
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