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Green Intern posted:Gregory Indeed, Shas'ui, this name is appropriate because it stands for Greatergoodry.
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Sep 2, 2015 11:50
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On Thousand Sons = Blood Ravens being a thing, a huge hint is that the Chapter Master during both this game and I believe most of DoW 2 is Azriah Kyras who is also the Chief Librarian, in no other first founding chapter, nor any other chapter since have both positions been held by the same person, except in the case of the Thousand Sons where as mentioned the Chief Librarian was also the First Captain. Which whilst not quite the same is close enough that I could totally believe that the habit of putting powerful psykers into positions of power within the main chapter instead of just within the ranks of the librarians is something they kept from being loyalist Thousand Sons. It helps that there is a book where metaphorical representations of the various loyalist offshoots of the traitor legions and one of them is a raven made of blood. Also as far as I remember the colours of the Blood Ravens are pretty suspiciously close to the colours of the Thousand Sons minus blue so yeah. Weirdly I don't think any of the Blood Ravens who fall to chaos become servants of Tzeentch, they tend to choose Khorne probably because he's the most easily recognisable chaos god and has a pretty memorable set of quotes and chants that sound very much big bad murder god. Also of note is Slaanesh basically never shows up anywhere in the Dawn of War games, the closest is in number 2 where some Noise Marines show up but that's about it, it's unfortunate but also understandable as any of the big name Slaanesh stuff would either have to be way off lore or the ratings of the games would have to be bumped up and neither is conducive to selling as much product as possible.
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Sep 2, 2015 12:59
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Lord_Magmar posted:thousand sons = blood raven I don't place a lot of stock in games that had a fairly power psyker dedicate himself to Khorne and not have Khorne immediately smite his rear end for such a arrogant act. 
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Sep 2, 2015 14:37
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Klaus88 posted:I don't place a lot of stock in games that had a fairly power psyker dedicate himself to Khorne and not have Khorne immediately smite his rear end for such a arrogant act. Never said any of it made sense in regards to the greater lore, just thought I'd share my knowledge on that particular topic. As I said these games focus a whole lot on Khorne even when it makes no sense, see Khornate Sorcerors in one of the games. As I mentioned Khorne is an easy god to have Chaos follow as then you just need everyone yelling KILL, MAIM, BURN. Honestly Kyras should have been falling to Tzeentch in Retribution not Khorne and it would've made a much better game, just a harder one to justify him wanting the Exterminatus to go through.
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Sep 2, 2015 14:59
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Kyras' problem was nihilism. Nurlge can help you accept it, Tzeentch and Slaanesh can give you the illusion of purpose, but only Khorne will let you forget it all. He promises war without end, and he delivers.
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Sep 2, 2015 16:25
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My point was assuming that this theoretical Tzeentchian Kyras would've fallen in the pursuit of knowledge or weaponry which would also match the most likely flaw a Blood Raven would have anyway.
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Sep 2, 2015 16:46
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President Ark posted:We want to conquer the planet, not destroy it! This is a cave, it's different. The Space Marin Orbital Bombardment is like the equivalent of some corvette popping off one 3" cannon against the surface. The gunner got real good aim.
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Sep 2, 2015 16:48
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Lord_Magmar posted:My point was assuming that this theoretical Tzeentchian Kyras would've fallen in the pursuit of knowledge or weaponry which would also match the most likely flaw a Blood Raven would have anyway.
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Sep 2, 2015 16:50
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If you consider greed a subset of lust probably Slaanesh, if you consider it a subset of gaining knowledge/power probably Tzeentch. Greed is wierd because I actually don't think it feeds any Chaos God because it's not an emotion that a large enough group of people have to produce a Chaos God, all of them were made either by a large consistent accumulation of their base emotion, the oldest being Khorne but Nurgle being the first conscious one, or a singular massive emotional event, see birth of Slaanesh.
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Sep 2, 2015 16:55
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Lord_Magmar posted:If you consider greed a subset of lust probably Slaanesh, if you consider it a subset of gaining knowledge/power probably Tzeentch. Greed is wierd because I actually don't think it feeds any Chaos God because it's not an emotion that a large enough group of people have to produce a Chaos God, all of them were made either by a large consistent accumulation of their base emotion, the oldest being Khorne but Nurgle being the first conscious one, or a singular massive emotional event, see birth of Slaanesh. Slaanesh would probably cover it in most cases. He's not simply the god of lust, but of desire and excess. Slaanesh wants more. More intense, more exhilarating, always chasing a new emotional high as what used to be pleasurable becomes staid and boring. Greed certainly fits that method.
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Sep 2, 2015 17:07
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Honestly, the dude was in the process of sacrificing an entire SECTOR to Khorne. if that ain't enough to make the guy overlook being a psyker, I don't know what is.
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Sep 2, 2015 17:22
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As long as we're talking chaos gods I might as well give a bit more info on each. Starting with the general statement that they aren't actually evil, they're gods of emotion not morality. Unfortunately the warp is a really hosed up place after the war in heaven so they are also really hosed up. Let's start with good old Papa Nurgle. First to gain consciousness he wakes up during the Black Plague I believe. Nurgle is the Chaos God of Despair, but also acceptance. He loves all life equally from the smallest bacteria to the largest plant. Also equally means he has an equal amount of love for each single organism, which means the most numerous organisms get the most love hence he cares most about bacteria and diseases. He is also the nicest Chaos God and is very much like Santa, if santa was a giant pus sack who left you diseases instead of presents and visited every day instead of once a year. Next is Tzeentch. Second youngest of the bunch it's hard to tell when exactly Tzeentch got his act together, considering his modus operandi and base emotion it's entirely possible he's actually the oldest and has just been hiding the entire time. Tzeentch is the Chaos God of Hope, but also intrigue. Tzeentch is interesting because by his very nature he loses the moment he wins, if Tzeentch dominates the Galaxy there will be no more hope, no more scheming there will only be raw chaos, and in that moment of victory Tzeentch will have destroyed himself entirely. Due to this Tzeentch is the worst Chaos God to actually follow as he's just as likely to screw you over as he is to help you out, just ask Magnus. Also by their nature Tzeentch and Nurgle are diametrically opposed, as such they fight more vehemently against each other than they do against either Slaanesh or Khorne. Next we come to Khorne himself. When the first man looked upon another and felt hatred for what he saw Khorne was born, but it would not be until 2 consecutive global wars that Khorne would find himself awake and active amongst the warp as more than a feeling. Khorne is the Chaos God of Hatred, but also martial honour. Currently the strongest of the Chaos Gods for obvious reasons Khorne is arguably a nice guy to worship, as long as you don't piss him off with poor offerings such as the blood of the weak and helpless, civilians for example. Khorne respects martial prowess so much that he cannot abide sorcery and considers it a form of cheating in warfare. Khorne is arguably in a victory state along the lines of the orcs because constant warfare means constant anger, hatred and bloodshed which means a constant source of power. The youngest of the Chaos gods and the only one directly born from a single act is Slaanesh. The Chaos God/dess of Love and Sensation. Slaanesh was born when nearly the entire Eldar empire devolved into a sensual orgy of constantly reaching for that next high, and subsequently ate all but 2 of their gods, abducted their goddess of life to a sex dungeon and became the most disturbing part of the entire Warhammer 40k mythos. Slaanesh is probably the worst God/dess to follow in the long term because as you become acclimated to new sensations they stop working and so you start reaching ever further for more and more absurd sensations until eventually you stop feeling anything at all. At which point you're worthless to Slaanesh and they throw you away like a used rag. Slaanesh and Khorne are also diametrically opposed, although they tend to fight more often than Tzeentch and Nurgle who can at least pretend to work together, Khornate forces will attack Slaaneshi forces on sight more often than not. There is one last major player for the Chaos Gods, often forgotten because Games Workshop don't technically own him is Malal, Chaos God of Discipline and Order. Malal hates all the other Chaos Gods equally and prefers to empower a single mortal champion of extraordinary faith to become an unstoppable juggernaut of battle and then aim him at the other forces of Chaos. Malal is a very interesting Chaos God because he's probably intrinsically linked with the Emperor at this point seeing as they get power from the same set of emotions within the warp. If he isn't intrinsically linked than all the discipline of the space marines and the preaching of the imperium is going to one day backfire when he decides to strike at them instead of his fellow Chaos Gods, although that day is probably far off. Basically the God of Hope is a dick, the God of Despair is your jolly old Grandfather, the God of Hatred wants a good clean war, the God of Love is a rapist and the God of Order has deep identity issues because by nature he is self defeating.
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Sep 2, 2015 17:44
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Lord_Magmar posted:Let's start with good old Papa Nurgle. First to gain consciousness he wakes up during the Black Plague I believe.
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Sep 2, 2015 17:47
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anilEhilated posted:So they're connected to humans? All living things with souls, it's just the Eldar and Orks already had warp constructs feeding on their emotions and humans didn't so Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch are all primarily human creations, that's why Khorne is very obviously Metal satan, Nurgle is a very fat man and Tzeentch is an ever-changing bird freak. Also why Slaanesh looks kind of like an Eldar, it basically is an Eldar deity. I think Tzeentch might also be part Eldar but if he is he's got a deal going on with Cegorach because they have very similar divine profiles.
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Sep 2, 2015 17:51
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Klaus88 posted:I don't place a lot of stock in games that had a fairly power psyker dedicate himself to Khorne and not have Khorne immediately smite his rear end for such a arrogant act. Also of note, Khorne hates sorcerers not psykers. And there is a difference. To Khorne sorcerers work by studying and writing poncy words and beating your opponent with a math equation like a NERD. This is unmanly. Psykers on the other hand just use mind bullets, while not as manly as real bullets or a sword, is still manlier than math. Also yeah, humanity created Khorne and Nurgle. Probably Tzeentch too but I'm not 100% on that. Khorne gained sentience in the Mongol Invasion. Nurgle was created by the Black Death but he 'woke up' later. Doombreed, Khorne's favored daemon prince is Genghis Khan. 
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Sep 2, 2015 17:52
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Thanks Eimi I thought I was getting timings wrong on who woke up when.
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Sep 2, 2015 17:54
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I'll have to ask for citations on the "humanity created chaos gods" stuff, it smells too much of "humans are the most unique snowflakes, humanity gently caress yeah  " lovely fanfics. (No, Goto is not a valid source)So it took the degeneration and devastation of a multi-system civilization to create Slaanesh, but some disease and a few wars, on a single planet in the most rear end-backwards region of the galaxy, is enough to create others? Rrrrright. 
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Sep 2, 2015 17:56
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Pierzak posted:I'll have to ask for citations on the "humanity created chaos gods" stuff, it smells too much of "humans are the most unique snowflakes, humanity gently caress yeah Humanity gently caress Yeah is pretty drat integral to the setting. Just look at the Big E. At some point in prehistory all the psykers on Earth merged their spirits to create the Emperor, who at his prime could bitch slap any of the other civilizations gods. Granted in the case of Nurgle and Khorne its more that those events in humanity finalized their creation. Slaanesh was created very fast, hence the Eye of Terror. Nothing like that happened for the other three, they came into existence very slowly. Also it is said as a quirk of humantiy that our emotions are more volatile and changing and cast a bigger shadow in the warp than the other races. Again why the forces of Chaos love humans. You almost never see them trying to corrupt other races. Oh also Tzeentch's first daemon prince is M'kachan, otherwise known as Sir Isaac Newton. Nurgle and Slaaneshes come much later and from the same planet so they aren't based on real people sadly.
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Sep 2, 2015 18:01
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To be fair Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were all sort of small fry until the birth of Slaanesh which due to killing a whole bunch of Eldar Gods and ripping a hole through time and space gave a huge boost of power to them. Even then it still took them a while to really do anything. It's important to note that when they first started out most of them were weaker than the average daemon, it's just they also tended to be the first and then just kept gaining power over the next 30 000 - 40 000 years. Slaanesh is actually really weird for being born as strong as it was. Also all the warp energy of the Orks goes into Gork and Mork so none of their warfare feeds Khorne and as I said the Eldar had gods to empower with their belief and emotions so they didn't make any new warp beings until Slaanesh which really did a number on reality and sort of explains why letting the single most powerful race of psykers produce warp beings is a bad idea and has actively been avoided ever since, Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 18:01
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So, wait, if Khorne gets off on slaughter, why not develop non-lethal weapons to use on Khornate warriors, if possible?
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Sep 2, 2015 18:05
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bunnyofdoom posted:So, wait, if Khorne gets off on slaughter, why not develop non-lethal weapons to use on Khornate warriors, if possible? Still honorable battle, still empowers him. The real way to beat Khorne is to just not fight him, no war means he loses a poo poo-ton of his current strength. Of course if Khorne gets too weak Slaanesh best to run wild so yeah.
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Sep 2, 2015 18:07
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Pierzak posted:I'll have to ask for citations on the "humanity created chaos gods" stuff, it smells too much of "humans are the most unique snowflakes, humanity gently caress yeah The Eldar already had gods of their own, just as Orks do. Humanity was behind is all, but then they became so populous that their gods overpowered the Eldar competition and the Ork gods are just as, uh.. Unfocused as their followers.
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Sep 2, 2015 18:08
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Yeah ultimately it was the Age of Strife that really fattened up the Chaos gods, when humanity spread amongst the stars and the Eldar hosed a new rear end in a top hat for the universe into existence. The Age of Strife was the period of humanities expansion from Terra, as we conquered most of the galaxy, cept the Eldar's bits. It is known at this time the Warp was sailable /without/ Gellar fields and daemons were virtually nonexistent. Over time the Warp started to become harder and harder to navigate as more human psykers were born, until some daemon was able to corrupt the Men of Iron, true ai's that served humanity. This led to a massive series of wars that nearly destroyed humanity, as colonies were cut off from one another, killer robits going around killing, and generally lots of horrible poo poo. To cap it off Slaanesh was born and the resulting Warp storms rendered Warp travel impossible for several millennia. Also more Emprah fun facts. He was Hammurabi, Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammed. Also Saint George. (The dragon George killed being the Void Dragon.) Eimi fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 18:09
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Some fluff suggests he was also Hitler, although I cannot for the life of me remember where, it may be one of those /tg/ jokes that I remember overly well.
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Sep 2, 2015 18:12
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 We have a tie, War Council, between fortifying for a full turn to stock up on requisition, attacking the Vandean Coast, or attacking the Eldar. Somebody break this tie so we can continue.
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Sep 2, 2015 18:18
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Pierzak posted:I'll have to ask for citations on the "humanity created chaos gods" stuff, it smells too much of "humans are the most unique snowflakes, humanity gently caress yeah The Khorne one I know is from really old fluff, the gist is that humanity's medieval period (read: europe's medieval period) was so brutal on the one hand yet so honorable on the other that chaos had to adapt a new form to understand it or something. I can't send you to the exact edition for citiation but I'm guessing Rogue Trader or 2nd. Not only is there contradictory stuff now, like Khorne being involved somehow when the very first human brained another with a rock, but I don't think humanity is even responsible anymore. When Nurgle was fully born he was heralded by the black plague on earth, and probably plagues elsewhere, but not caused by it. I imagine the same goes for Khorne too - the whole galaxy must've heralded his birth by taking up jousting simultaneously or something.
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Sep 2, 2015 18:19
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The Eldar have mocked the greater good for the last time, show them their empire is long gone and they must let new ways of thinking rule the Galaxy.
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Sep 2, 2015 18:21
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The Chaos Gods except Slaanesh were created by humanity because Chaos is supposed to be a reflection of humankind, for the most part, because 40k came out of Fantasy where that's pretty much the case. Like, it's just an old snargle from the fact that 40k started out as a parody of Fantasy. Though it is really funny to think: Since these guys have only existed for a couple dozen millennia, they're pretty pathetic as Gods go.
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Sep 2, 2015 18:31
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Where do you guys get this kind of information? M'kachan is Newton? Where can I read that? Oh, and go kill the Eldar.
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Sep 2, 2015 18:47
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Lord_Magmar posted:Some fluff suggests he was also Hitler, although I cannot for the life of me remember where, it may be one of those /tg/ jokes that I remember overly well. There's fluff stating that Doombreed was an ancient human warlord from before the imperium whose slaughter and genocide won the favor of Khorne. Doombreed could be any number of historical dudes, maybe even a future dude relative to us, but draw your own conclusions
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Sep 2, 2015 19:03
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Doombreed being Ghengis is lended a lot of weight because, iirc official art has him with a fu manchu.
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Sep 2, 2015 19:07
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hard counter posted:There's fluff stating that Doombreed was an ancient human warlord from before the imperium whose slaughter and genocide won the favor of Khorne. Doombreed could be any number of historical dudes, maybe even a future dude relative to us, but draw your own conclusions Was talking about the Emperor there. Not Doombreed.
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Sep 2, 2015 19:08
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ProZocK posted:Where do you guys get this kind of information? M'kachan is Newton? Where can I read that? Well it's been ruined and retconned to M'kachan just being a super powerful Lord of Change because GW hates everything awesome. Just like they ruined Ollanius Pius the most badass motherfucker in the entire setting. 
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Sep 2, 2015 19:17
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Eimi posted:Well it's been ruined and retconned to M'kachan just being a super powerful Lord of Change because GW hates everything awesome. Just like they ruined Ollanius Pius the most badass motherfucker in the entire setting. A general rule of thumb for the setting is the longer time goes on, the more likely it is GW will resolve a thing in the most boring and pointless way possible. For proof, see the End Times.
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Sep 2, 2015 19:36
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Night10194 posted:A general rule of thumb for the setting is the longer time goes on, the more likely it is GW will resolve a thing in the most boring and pointless way possible. Yeah, it's pretty infuriating. Also to expand on who Ollanius Pius is, for those who don't know... So during the Siege of Terra, when Horus, former space marine Primarch and favored son of the Emperor and now vessel of all four Chaos gods, has pierced the sanctum of the Emperor. Sanguinius, the first and best Primarch, who actually had angel wings and just before had battled an army of Bloodthirsters (Khorne's greater daemons) by himself, swooped in to defend the Emperor, but Horus, to everyone's shock, cut down Sanguinius. Everyone is stunned, the Emperor doesn't believe one of his sons would kill the other, the Custodes and Space Marines around him too shocked to act. Ollanius was just a simple Guardsmen, Flak Jacket and Lazgun and all, and he steps between Horus and the Emperor. Just one tiny insignificant human, trying to defend the Emperor from a 10 foot tall literal god of war. Horus kills him with a glance. But it was that simple sacrifice that lifts the haze from the Emperor, and he sees that Horus is beyond redemption, laying a galactic can of rear end whoopin til he eventually removes Horus from existence. (Big E completely destroys Horus's soul which is why he cannot be brought back by any means) Ollanius showed that in the end for all the badass super humans, it was just the little tiny normal guy who made the difference in the end. An act of colossal bravery to step into what he knew was his death, but doing it anyway. He's just such an amazing character. GW in their colossal idiocy, retconned all of this. First he's Custodes, then a Space Marine in Terminator armor, and then something stupid called a Perpetual that is really loving dumb. To me he shall always be a Guardsmen with balls bigger than Terra. 
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Sep 2, 2015 19:45
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I love the new thread title. 
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Sep 2, 2015 19:50
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Kill the eldar, they are meddling morons and like any elves or elf wannabes they need a big boot to the face.
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Sep 2, 2015 20:02
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Eimi posted:Ollanius showed that in the end for all the badass super humans, it was just the little tiny normal guy who made the difference in the end. An act of colossal bravery to step into what he knew was his death, but doing it anyway. He's just such an amazing character. GW in their colossal idiocy, retconned all of this. First he's Custodes, then a Space Marine in Terminator armor, and then something stupid called a Perpetual that is really loving dumb. To me he shall always be a Guardsmen with balls bigger than Terra. The whole Perpetual thing is all on Dan Abnett, isn't it?
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Sep 2, 2015 20:25
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Night10194 posted:The whole Perpetual thing is all on Dan Abnett, isn't it? Yeah, a very rare miss from the guy. I'm not sure if it was something he came up with or was GW mandated, but it was in his novels so yeah...
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Sep 2, 2015 20:34
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Night10194 posted:The whole Perpetual thing is all on Dan Abnett, isn't it? Yes. Abnett introduced the idea with a spy character in a book about the Alpha Legion, and in my opinion the idea worked well enough in that particular book as part of that character. Then writers took the idea and used it in cases where I feel it really didn't belong.
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Sep 2, 2015 20:35
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