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Durinia posted:The "xy nm" numbers have basically lost their meaning these days. The screwy design rules and the 3D elements make them essentially made-up values in many ways. Basically this. However, my comparison in density between TSMC and Intel was basically to point out exactly what you do: that node sizes can be misleading for design rule reasons (e.g. TSMC 2D vs. Intel 1D) and, as you mentioned, where the node feature size was measured.
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Sep 2, 2015 21:39
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Yudo posted:I rage their pricing, that they no longer bin but fuse,
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Sep 2, 2015 21:47
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Twerk from Home posted:What does this acronym mean? I'm assuming it means "can run at full turbo bins all the time as thermals allow", basically ignoring the TDP if you have sufficient cooling. Can this be done with a non-K CPU and and non-Z motherboard? If that's a switch I can flip on an H170 board with a 6600, then there's a value king. MCE = Multi Core Enhancement. Basically it is an alternate turbo behaviour that has every core at the max bin. And yes, it is on H series motherboards and can be used with non-K SKUs.
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Sep 2, 2015 23:25
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JawnV6 posted:l m a o you've got quite a world built up over there Remember when, say a P166 = a binned P200, so you could buy cheap and clock up? Or hell, when you didn't have to buy a "k" for a non-crippled chip? Or when you could SMP Celerons? I.e. when poo poo was cool? Guess not. Yudo fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 23:28
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Yudo posted:Remember when, say a P166 = a binned P200, so you could buy cheap and clock up? Or hell, when you didn't have to buy a "k" for a non-crippled chip?Or when you could SMP Celerons? E.g. when poo poo was cool? Guess not.
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Sep 2, 2015 23:32
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Please stop believing that you the overclocker in tyool 2015 are worth anything to Intel outside of publicity stunts tia The idea I'm getting at is that it is annoying that Intel has religiously segmented SKUs, go out of their way to enforce them and was using the silly "k" thing as an example. I don't give a poo poo about overclocking either and you are utterly missing the point. VVV Mine clocked like a dream, but I had to buy the then uncommon aftermarket heat sink. My 760 i5 did as well, but my current Haswell doesn't for poo poo (relative even to other Haswells). It's luck sometimes and there are many reasons a CPU gets binned. Edit2: Motherboards also weren't tailored in the Pentium era for l33t clockers. Some motherboards had much better power delivery than others: you chip might have been a mighty clocker, but the MB couldn't manage. Yudo fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 23:35
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Yudo posted:Remember when, say a P166 = a binned P200, so you could buy cheap and clock up? I remember doing that and it was constantly ready to crash because it was actually binned for a reason 
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Sep 2, 2015 23:36
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Nintendo Kid posted:I remember doing that and it was constantly ready to crash because it was actually binned for a reason Yeah, I thought it was a crapshoot on how stable it would be.
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Sep 2, 2015 23:37
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Yudo posted:Remember when, say a P166 = a binned P200, so you could buy cheap and clock up? Or hell, when you didn't have to buy a "k" for a non-crippled chip? Or when you could SMP Celerons? I.e. when poo poo was cool? Guess not. Intel now makes just 5 chips: Atom, low-voltage (4.5-15w mobile i5/"i7" -> mobile i3 -> desktop i3 -> desktop pentium/celeron) mobile, high-end (35-55w) mobile (mobile i7 -> desktop i7 -> desktop i5), low-end server (high leakage low end Xeon chips become -E series chips), high-end server, with maybe some eDRAM on the side for their Iris Pro series. Everything that doesn't work perfectly gets configured down to a lower, less efficient SKU. What you get for desktop chips these days are actually incredibly low quality high-leakage parts and it's often a miracle they work given how lovely they are (your K chips are actually hilariously inferior to every "desktop replacement" laptop chip). The fact that people pay premiums on them is Intel laughing to the bank. If AMD was actually competitive, i5s wouldn't go over $200 and non-enthusiast i7s won't go over $300. This was indeed the case with the first generation i-series, ie the last time where AMD had roughly equal price-performance-power parity. You may get the rare freakshow T chip but it's mostly because it doesn't actually volt downwards enough to be usable for a mobile chip but still has a low enough leakage at load to actually work at 45w.
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Sep 2, 2015 23:52
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So market segmentation had always existed but it used to be easier to do stuff you weren't supposed to so gently caress Intel?
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Sep 3, 2015 01:46
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WhyteRyce posted:So market segmentation had always existed but it used to be easier to do stuff you weren't supposed to so gently caress Intel? This, except the reality is that often it wasn't easier at all, because a ton of the time the binning downward was completely justified.
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Sep 3, 2015 01:51
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Nintendo Kid posted:This, except the reality is that often it wasn't easier at all, because a ton of the time the binning downward was completely justified. But everyone has their own special snowflake anecdote which of course trumps everything and furthermore I'm VERY MAD because I'm CPU limited all the time on every day to do thing I do on my PC and and and and if AMD still existed then by gosh we wouldn't be in this situation and back in my day you could really clock a god damned chip for free 
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Sep 3, 2015 03:51
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Computers are cheap as gently caress nowadays, and the 5820k is a gem, especially at the price.
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Sep 3, 2015 03:54
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youre not ever getting a celeron 300A again loving deal with it
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Sep 3, 2015 04:25
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Nintendo Kid posted:This, except the reality is that often it wasn't easier at all, because a ton of the time the binning downward was completely justified. Except most desktop chips are loving terrible, leaky rejects as it is and have features fused off, not binned. The extra SMT flag and state registers on an i5 work just fine, but they have been disabled, for example. An entire thread of people with Stockholm syndrome up in here. Intel has lost over $7 billion in mobile since 2012 and made $27 billion from the desktop--a contracting market. It's kind of important they give a reason for people to buy these things other than "the old one blew up". Yudo fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 06:36
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Yudo posted:Except most desktop chips are loving terrible, leaky rejects as it is and have features fused off, not binned. The extra SMT flag and state registers on an i5 work just fine, but they have been disabled, for example. There was someone with a magic i5 chip that didn't have its traces fused off properly and thus had hyperthreading at random on bootup. Anime Schoolgirl fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 06:46
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:I hope you aren't saying I have Stockholm Syndrome because I really don't like the market situation myself either, because the mid-tier is unnecessarily more expensive than it has to be. No, and thank you for pointing out that desktop chips (still a huge part of Intel's revenue stream) are $350 bottom of the barrel parts and I agree about the i5 and i7 line. Also lol that's great. Having SMT should be standard: it's a really great feature costing very little power.
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Sep 3, 2015 07:11
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So what you're saying is.... we should harvest the primo chips out of high-end laptops and re-purpose them for l33t overclocking chips! Now, how to de-solder the buggers...
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Sep 3, 2015 07:22
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DrDork posted:So what you're saying is.... we should harvest the primo chips out of high-end laptops and re-purpose them for l33t overclocking chips! Now, how to de-solder the buggers... and it is m e g a expensive
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Sep 3, 2015 07:35
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Mid tier CPUs are cheap. Hell all Intel chips are cheap. If you want high end over the top idiocy give ibm a call.
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Sep 3, 2015 07:53
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Boiled Water posted:Mid tier CPUs are cheap. Hell all Intel chips are cheap. If you want high end over the top idiocy give ibm a call. Mid-tier CPUs aren't egregious, but they're certainly padded with pretty fat margins (and far fatter than in years past) because Intel has the luxury of being a defacto monopoly on everything north of "poo poo box" in the desktop market, and everything north of "Walmart special" for laptops. IBM meanwhile operates in a segment where cost-per-chip is almost irrelevant.
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Sep 3, 2015 08:03
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:Funny you say that because Intel is coming out with an overclockable laptop SKU for Skylake :iamafag: What? Why (aside from extracting money from morons)? This sounds like a terrible idea and a good way to scorch one's groin. Yudo fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 08:40
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Yudo posted:What? Why (aside from extracting money from morons)? This sounds like a terrible idea and a good way to scorch one's groin. Though, honestly I'd like to know how well those chips would scale when overclocked, because they're the (mostly) full featured high efficiency mobile chips. I'm guessing neeeeeerds would take apart the laptop chassis and put the boards in something else entirely with wacky cooling solutions.
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Sep 3, 2015 09:18
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:Because it's a new and unexplored "loving moron" segment! No need to take apart the laptop chassis, just buy one that already has a wacky cooling solution.   http://www.theverge.com/2015/9/2/9251275/asus-gx700-water-cooled-gaming-laptop-ifa-2015-video http://www.windowscentral.com/asuss-new-rog-gx700-gaming-laptop-has-insane-liquid-cooling-dock
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Sep 3, 2015 12:50
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DrDork posted:Mid-tier CPUs aren't egregious, but they're certainly padded with pretty fat margins (and far fatter than in years past) because Intel has the luxury of being a defacto monopoly on everything north of "poo poo box" in the desktop market, and everything north of "Walmart special" for laptops. IBM meanwhile operates in a segment where cost-per-chip is almost irrelevant. Is price per IPC really that bad now? I think you'll find that prices for processing power has dropped and dropped. Before you reply with the factual data remember to factor in inflation. Edit: If you want to compile a dataset I'll be more than willing to analyze it for you. I feel pretty confident it'll show processors improving a rapid pace. champagne posting fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 13:09
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Yudo posted:Except most desktop chips are loving terrible, leaky rejects as it is and have features fused off, not binned. The extra SMT flag and state registers on an i5 work just fine, but they have been disabled, for example. It's fine if you don't like Intel's SKU game and what features they decide which one gets, it just sounded like you were upset that Intel wasn't letting you easily unlock them with a mechanical pencil or ghetto BIOS/motherboard
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Sep 3, 2015 14:48
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Rastor posted:No need to take apart the laptop chassis, just buy one that already has a wacky cooling solution. For those times when an Alienware or Razer is just too low key.
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Sep 3, 2015 14:51
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Yudo posted:Except most desktop chips are loving terrible, leaky rejects as it is and have features fused off, not binned. The extra SMT flag and state registers on an i5 work just fine, but they have been disabled, for example. Yudo posted:An entire thread of people with Stockholm syndrome up in here. Intel has lost over $7 billion in mobile since 2012 and made $27 billion from the desktop--a contracting market. It's kind of important they give a reason for people to buy these things other than "the old one blew up". Intel's making big bets on mobile, but I don't think you're anywhere near a clear enough understanding of the market to really discuss it if pissing off overclockers is why they didn't make a splash there.
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Sep 3, 2015 18:06
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Yudo posted:Except most desktop chips are loving terrible, leaky rejects as it is and have features fused off, not binned. The extra SMT flag and state registers on an i5 work just fine, but they have been disabled, for example. PC enthusiasts are a tiny proportion of that $27 billion though, most of it is corporate and people who will just buy the new Intel CPU because it's the new Intel CPU rather than because it's X% faster in benchmarks. People who actually need compute performance for professional work buy Xeons which are still seeing sizable performance increases every generation. PC enthusiasts are a niche market and Intel, seeing that they have no competition in the area, made the financial decision to not really bother trying to cater to them anymore.
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Sep 3, 2015 18:29
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It's not that you can't get more performance, you certainly can; its that a certain subset is throwing a fit that they can't get more for "free"
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Sep 3, 2015 19:27
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Rastor posted:No need to take apart the laptop chassis, just buy one that already has a wacky cooling solution. Wait, so water does actually flow through the laptop using those hydraulic-style quick disconnect ports on the back?  I suppose it is more efficient to do it that way instead of, say, a conductive contact pad that connects the laptop to the water cooling system. Still I wonder how it deals with the water left in the laptop after you disconnect it from the cooling unit because having any water left in the laptop sounds like a bad idea. The while things sounds like a bad idea.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:14
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Edward IV posted:Wait, so water does actually flow through the laptop using those hydraulic-style quick disconnect ports on the back? I believe it uses water-cooling internally as well, so it's supposed to have water left inside. But when connected to the dock, has a larger reservoir and radiator.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:25
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It's probably a hybrid ala current desktop video card hybrid coolers.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:33
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This thread brings me endless amounts of entertainment from time to time. This is one of those times.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:41
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Skandranon posted:I believe it uses water-cooling internally as well, so it's supposed to have water left inside. But when connected to the dock, has a larger reservoir and radiator. I guess that kind of makes sense. It still sounds like a bad idea. And expensive. And heavy. Really heavy. God help you when you inevitably drop it.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:03
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Edward IV posted:I guess that kind of makes sense. It still sounds like a bad idea. And expensive. And heavy. Really heavy. God help you when you inevitably drop it. If you drop it hard enough to crack an internal waterblock or line, you've already dropped it hard enough to break substantial other parts, so you're probably not substantially worse off than you would otherwise be. But yeah, who thought that was a good idea?
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Sep 3, 2015 21:08
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MaxxBot posted:PC enthusiasts are a tiny proportion of that $27 billion though, most of it is corporate and people who will just buy the new Intel CPU because it's the new Intel CPU rather than because it's X% faster in benchmarks. People who actually need compute performance for professional work buy Xeons which are still seeing sizable performance increases every generation. PC enthusiasts are a niche market and Intel, seeing that they have no competition in the area, made the financial decision to not really bother trying to cater to them anymore. Lot's of professional organizations buy i7s for workstations. Xeons are only scaling for server applications with high thread counts, though I could be quite wrong here. People used to upgrade because a) performance got substantially better which enabled new applications and b) MOAR MHZ (e.g. Intel's P4 marketing). I am not at all confining this to enthusiasts. Slightly better battery life/performance/GPU on the same mediocre desktop experience is not going to induce people to upgrade. Intel et al. need to innovate, which, judging buy this year's IDC, they are actually doing! JawnV6 posted:I'm interested in contacting your world and discussing things. We should figure out if you're made of anti-matter before first contact. I think some definition alignment would help, by what process do you believe fusing is determined if not "binning"? DO you believe your bench top setup is making that "just fine" call as well as a few million dollars in test equipment? Binning and fusing working parts off are different things. I don't care about overclocking, rather was using it as an example of silly market segmentation. Not having an LTE modem was bad for Intel, like killer. However, Intel hemorrhaged cash in mobile because of development costs, sure, but also from massive subsidies to make their Atom chips on par price wise with ARM and induce OEMs to actually use their chips. They sell mobile Atoms at a loss and do so to keep there foot in the door. Most OEMs are happy with ARM chips and don't want a have to deal with the same sort of Intel bullshit that they do in the x86 world. Also Atoms weren't very good, but that gap is closing.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:21
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Yudo posted:Binning and fusing working parts off are different things. I mean, we all know your "test" for a "working" SMT hiding behind a fuse is just a single Prime95 run that never even touched the HT core with a speedpath and cursing Intel's name because of a simplistic, shortsighted test, I'm just wondering how you make the narrative stack up. Yudo posted:I don't care about overclocking, rather was using it as an example of silly market segmentation. Not having an LTE modem was bad for Intel, like killer. Yudo posted:However, Intel hemorrhaged cash in mobile because of development costs, sure, but also from massive subsidies to make their Atom chips on par price wise with ARM and induce OEMs to actually use their chips. They sell mobile Atoms at a loss and do so to keep there foot in the door. Most OEMs are happy with ARM chips and don't want a have to deal with the same sort of Intel bullshit that they do in the x86 world. Also Atoms weren't very good, but that gap is closing.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:38
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What the gently caress does Intel not having an LTE modem have to do with loving ANY of this poo poo? I'm with Jawn on this one. You've gotta be from a parallel world. Do your Vulcans have goatees?
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Sep 4, 2015 04:06
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Let's just focus on the WiMax and McAfee stuff here people. I'll give Infineon a pass because it's not like anyone but Qualcomm knew what they were doing
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Sep 4, 2015 04:37
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