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Sep 3, 2015 18:10
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Holyshoot posted:It's almost as if this dip poo poo has never followed WoW world first raiding. The same stuff happens. You class stack for the first kills then as gear gets better overall you can bring in the less optimal classes. I think however it will last a bit longer here because it's a tad harder to gear up in FF versus WoW. Either way non world first raiding paladins will get their kill as a paladin eventually once average gear levels catch up. No poo poo. It's still a problem if you can't get a clear because one of your tanks is a paladin.
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Sep 3, 2015 18:42
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kalstrams posted:I'm fresh new to the fame, but wasn't world first for ??Alex 3 Savage?? just full group of paladins? i dunno if this is a joke or a reference or an actual thing that happened but the thought of 8 paladins mashing circle of scorn all at once is making me laugh
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Sep 3, 2015 19:25
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DolphinCop posted:i dunno if this is a joke or a reference or an actual thing that happened but the thought of 8 paladins mashing circle of scorn all at once is making me laugh
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Sep 3, 2015 19:34
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DolphinCop posted:i dunno if this is a joke or a reference or an actual thing that happened but the thought of 8 paladins mashing circle of scorn all at once is making me laugh Basically an orbital ion cannon strike.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:20
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Fister Roboto posted:Basically an orbital ion cannon strike. A summoner does as much AoE damage as 8 paladins, the math checks out.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:22
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Fister Roboto posted:No poo poo. It's still a problem if you can't get a clear because one of your tanks is a paladin. You can get a clear when you have the gear. And I'm sure chyea could clear it in his group with a paladin but a warrior/drk is probably significanlty easier. And when you are significanly undergeared for a fight you min/max wherever you can and class stacking is the easiest spot to do it.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:24
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Holyshoot posted:You can get a clear when you have the gear. And I'm sure chyea could clear it in his group with a paladin but a warrior/drk is probably significanlty easier. And when you are significanly undergeared for a fight you min/max wherever you can and class stacking is the easiest spot to do it. Do you seriously not see the problem with this? Like, do you really think it's OK for some groups to clear slower than others because one of their tanks chose the wrong class? e: Warriors and black mages had issues in 2.0 and they buffed them. Dragoons and summoners had issues in 2.4 and they buffed them. Astros and monks had issues in 3.0 and they buffed them. Paladins have issues now, but why are there so many people saying "nah, paladins are totally fine, just git gud gear"? Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 20:32
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Fister Roboto posted:Do you seriously not see the problem with this? Like, do you really think it's OK for some groups to clear slower than others because one of their tanks chose the wrong class? The biggest reason some groups clear slower than others is because not every group can spend 16 hours a day for 3+ weeks trying to beat a fight.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:41
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Virulence posted:The biggest reason some groups clear slower than others is because not every group can spend 16 hours a day for 3+ weeks trying to beat a fight. No poo poo. That doesn't mean that class composition doesn't play a part as well.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:44
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Fister Roboto posted:No poo poo. That doesn't mean that class composition doesn't play a part as well. Yeah, and paladin is also fine on every encounter in the game except for A4S. There's such a tiny fraction of the playerbase even attempting that encounter right now that making changes to paladin to make it worthwhile on that fight is probably not a huge priority.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:47
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Virulence posted:Yeah, and paladin is also fine on every encounter in the game except for A4S. There's such a tiny fraction of the playerbase even attempting that encounter right now that making changes to paladin to make it worthwhile on that fight is probably not a huge priority. Paladin is actually meaningfully disadvantaged on A3S. It's also the worst offtank and the worst 4-man tank by an enormous margin. Paladin is pretty broken as a class right now, and it goes right down to the design of "I don't do anywhere near as much damage, but I also don't need my extra survivability". Like, do you have Paladin and Warrior (or Dark Knight) at 60? Paladin has to play so conservatively in 4-mans - limited or no Shield Oath against good DPS, skipping Royal Authority against DPS with a better weapon, and abysmal AoE DPS. By comparison, my Warrior - with identical gear - can spend most of the instance in Deliverance and has absolutely no problem with aggro even against Dragoons and BLMs without quelling. Niton fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 20:51
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PLD is the worst because the entire game has been built around DPS and "highest damage mitigation" doesnt matter when DRK and WAR have enough mitigation for any content and anything above that isnt really necessary and is gladly traded for more DPS. e: and as said above, WAR and DRK dont have trouble keeping aggro in DPS stance.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:55
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I for one think being limited to 10 potency per second AOE is totally fine. No problems there at all, no sir. You just need better gear.
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Sep 3, 2015 20:57
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Virulence posted:Yeah, and paladin is also fine on every encounter in the game except for A4S. There's such a tiny fraction of the playerbase even attempting that encounter right now that making changes to paladin to make it worthwhile on that fight is probably not a huge priority. If you're learning A1S the dps difference between PLD and DRK isn't meaningless, and the DRK can shrug off the tank busters easily. PLD having better general mitigation is meaningless if the DRK can be kept alive despite not blocking because DPS is king.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:08
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I think balancing a class around the top .5% player base is not good and not possible. If people are avg ilv of 205+ and still not doing a4s with a pld then there is an issue.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:09
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Holyshoot posted:I think balancing a class around the top .5% player base is not good and not possible. If people are avg ilv of 205+ and still not doing a4s with a pld then there is an issue. You're ignoring that the Paladin issues are very clear and obvious, and it affects all Paladins all the way down to Expert Roulette.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:11
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nuru posted:You're ignoring that the Paladin issues are very clear and obvious, and it affects all Paladins all the way down to Expert Roulette. I can't have my tank stance off at the start on an exdr with good dps as a drk unless I just want to be doing 123 for the first 30 seconds and using all my mana up on dark arts power slashes. I'll tank a exdr tonight on my pld and i bet I can be in tank stance for the first 30 seconds and switch to sword oath and be able to do my dps rotation.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:15
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Holyshoot posted:I can't have my tank stance off at the start on an exdr with good dps as a drk unless I just want to be doing 123 for the first 30 seconds and using all my mana up on dark arts power slashes. I'll tank a exdr tonight on my pld and i bet I can be in tank stance for the first 30 seconds and switch to sword oath and be able to do my dps rotation. You should be able to open with a single Grit power slash, then hold aggro without going back into Grit. Paladin can't even do that - If you try to swap into Sword Oath, a single Halone combo will lose out to a melee's opener right around when your second Savage Blade lands, because you're a GCD late and a modifier short. Niton fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 21:18
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Flash does a lot of damage though!
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Sep 3, 2015 21:19
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This is one of those times where you just admit you aren't very good at DRK.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:19
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Holyshoot posted:I can't have my tank stance off at the start on an exdr with good dps as a drk unless I just want to be doing 123 for the first 30 seconds and using all my mana up on dark arts power slashes. I'll tank a exdr tonight on my pld and i bet I can be in tank stance for the first 30 seconds and switch to sword oath and be able to do my dps rotation. What on Earth is your point supposed to be within this utter word salad? If I start in Grit on a DRK for 30 seconds and then switch it off, I'll still be doing more damage than a Paladin starting in Shield and then switching to Sword. I'll also have significantly fewer aggro problems as the fight goes on. What are you trying to say?
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Sep 3, 2015 21:20
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Did you know that the paladin's threat combo has less potency AND lower enmity modifiers than either of the other classes'? Rage of Halone is 2050 enmity potency, while Butcher's Block is 2390 and Power Slash is 2570 without Dark Arts. That's before you factor in damage buffs from Maim or Darkside, which have 100% uptime, compared with Fight or Flight which only has 33% uptime, making it a lower increase overall. Basically Rage of Halone was balanced around the fact that it was a paladin's only combo while a warrior would have to alternate between Butcher's Block and Storm combos. But now that paladins have two new combos that they need to use, they never bothered to buff Halone to compensate. Also both WAR and DRK have percentage-based DPS stances, which means that they increase the enmity of their threat combos. Meanwhile, Sword Oath is a flat ~25 potency per second that doesn't affect any other skills. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 21:26
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Vermain posted:What on Earth is your point supposed to be within this utter word salad? If I start in Grit on a DRK for 30 seconds and then switch it off, I'll still be doing more damage than a Paladin starting in Shield and then switching to Sword. I'll also have significantly fewer aggro problems as the fight goes on. What are you trying to say? And a warrior will do more then a drk. The gap isn't that crazy that stuff isn't doable minus the hardest of hard while being super under geared. You want paladin to take hits like a champ and dish our amazing dps but you can't have it both ways.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:28
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Holyshoot posted:I can't have my tank stance off at the start on an exdr with good dps as a drk unless I just want to be doing 123 for the first 30 seconds and using all my mana up on dark arts power slashes. I'll tank a exdr tonight on my pld and i bet I can be in tank stance for the first 30 seconds and switch to sword oath and be able to do my dps rotation. If you can't hold threat after using your mana up on Dark Arts Power Slashes then maybe you need to 
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Sep 3, 2015 21:28
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Holyshoot posted:And a warrior will do more then a drk. The gap isn't that crazy that stuff isn't doable minus the hardest of hard while being super under geared. You want paladin to take hits like a champ and dish our amazing dps but you can't have it both ways. No? I want them to have equivalent (and non-superfluous) survivability and equivalent DPS to the other tanks; or, barring that, to have an increase in utility that justifies bringing them along. None of this is currently true.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:30
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Vermain posted:No? I want them to have equivalent (and non-superfluous) survivability and equivalent DPS to the other tanks; or, barring that, to have an increase in utility that justifies bringing them along. None of this is currently true. I just don't see the point in making a whine post when trying to clear content on a sub par class before 99% of everyone else?  When you play at that level it's expected to be able to play what works best at the time for that fight. If you can't handle that then I guess you just get to kill it slower. I'm sure the next set of turns will have a ton of physical damage and DRK will be worthless.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:37
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Holyshoot posted:I just don't see the point in making a whine post when trying to clear content on a sub par class before 99% of everyone else? Because playing a class that is slower in all of the main content in the game than all of the other classes in its role and which barely exceeds them in survivability isn't loving fun!
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Sep 3, 2015 21:38
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Vermain posted:Because playing a class that is slower in all of the main content in the game than all of the other classes in its role and which barely exceeds them in survivability isn't loving fun! Since when does being 100% perfectly optimal have anything to do with whether the game's fun or not?
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Sep 3, 2015 21:49
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Holyshoot posted:I just don't see the point in making a whine post when trying to clear content on a sub par class before 99% of everyone else? What you're not getting is that paladins have problems at all levels of play, and they get magnified at higher levels. It's especially bad when esoterics gear locks you into a single class.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:50
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kafziel posted:Since when does being 100% perfectly optimal have anything to do with whether the game's fun or not? If I can't clear my EXDR in 15 mins I am not having fun!!!!!!!!!
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Sep 3, 2015 21:53
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Holyshoot posted:If you can't handle that then I guess you just get to kill it slower. I'm sure the next set of turns will have a ton of physical damage and DRK will be worthless. Fun fact: Paladin is not significantly better at survivability than the other two tanks! Outside of Hallowed Ground and Sentinel, Paladin's cooldowns are all pretty lackluster, and Sheltron/Bulwark aren't anywhere near as strong as DA + DM or Inner Beast are. e: Holyshoot posted:If I can't clear my EXDR in 15 mins I am not having fun!!!!!!!!! The difference between PLD and War in a bad group is "Clearing in 20 minutes" and "Clearing in 30". I hate the TOMESTONES PER HOUR argument, but if you think it's not an enormous difference, then there's nothing anyone can say that will make you agree with reality. Niton fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Sep 3, 2015 |
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Sep 3, 2015 21:53
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Fister Roboto posted:It's especially bad when esoterics gear locks you into a single class. I'll agree with you on that one. Locking ESO gear to one class is stupid.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:55
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kafziel posted:Since when does being 100% perfectly optimal have anything to do with whether the game's fun or not? If PLD was a class with a great deal of intricacy that required moment-to-moment decision making and a high skill ceiling, I could almost forgive it for being objectively worse than DRK or WAR, but it's not. It's a dead-simple class to play with no great complexity and a hideously low skill ceiling. It has a bunch of dead weight skills that are useful in only specific, niche circumstances, including two of the brand-new utility skills that they got in this expansion. Their rotation has no flavour beyond performing three combos in a row repeatedly. They have the worst AoE damage in the entire game. The class is straight-up not fun to play and straight-up inferior to the other two options available. I struggle to understand how anyone could actually enjoy the class in its current state of numbing repetition and subpar performance.
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Sep 3, 2015 21:58
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I can't believe we're having to spend an entire page of the thread explaining to somebody how being underpowered isn't fun and yet here we loving are. Will the wonders never cease
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Sep 3, 2015 22:01
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Captain Oblivious posted:I can't believe we're having to spend an entire page of the thread explaining to somebody how being underpowered isn't fun and yet here we loving are. Never change FFXIV thread.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:07
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Captain Oblivious posted:I can't believe we're having to spend an entire page of the thread explaining to somebody how being underpowered isn't fun and yet here we loving are. When should I use fracture as a paladin?
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Sep 3, 2015 22:21
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i had fun as a pld in fcob because i could watch netflix while i raided and still play at 100% effectiveness checkmate losers that think pld isn't fun
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Sep 3, 2015 22:23
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Captain Oblivious posted:I can't believe we're having to spend an entire page of the thread explaining to somebody how being underpowered isn't fun and yet here we loving are. I disagree.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:33
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The only people I've had tell me that paladins are fine either don't main paladin, or bought the eso chest first. I seriously want to live in the world where paladins mitigate so much damage that it's actually worth the loss of dps.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:34
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