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There's literally a charm that creates water, and conjuration is an advanced form of transfiguration. Yud can get hosed on his "don't transfigure into liquid" rule. Also, this is my favorite part:quote:You will never Transfigure anything that could conceivably go inside anyone's body by any means. A quote, from Sorceror's Stone, page 100 American Edition: quote:On Harry's other side, Percy Weasley and Hermione were talking about lessons ("I do hope they start right away, there's so much to learn, I'm particularly interested in Transfiguration, you know, turning something into something else, of course, it's supposed to be very difficult-"; "You'll be starting small, just matches into needles and that sort of thing -- "). Literally first year material is transfiguring small things into other small things. e - Also the entire thing makes no sense in general, especially with the smoke thing. If you burn wood or metal, the tiny little metal/wood particles aren't going to hurt you; similarly to any other burnable or non-burnable substance. There is literally no way that transfiguring something into a burnable material could hurt you in any way, shape, or form outside of you beating someone over the head with a burning thing. Mazzletoff fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 11:46
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Mazzletoff posted:
It really doesn't. It seems that Yud thinks that if you transfigure something metal/wood into something else, when it turns back it'll somehow all clump together instead of being harmlessly dispersed throughout the body?
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Sep 4, 2015 12:12
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The one thing that comes to mind is to ask whether transfiguration preserves mass or not. Let's handwave away preservation of energy for a moment and just assume it's magically possible for transfiguration to alter the mass of things as they are transfigured, as it appears to be from the Potter canon. Even leaving aside humans turning into much smaller animals, there are plenty of examples of things turning into teacups and chairs and things - either implying a change in mass or a change in density. If that's the case, then it's possible to transfigure, say, ten pounds of wood into a pound of water. When the transfiguration reverses, you aren't talking about a bit of water sloshing around in your stomach suddenly turning into an equal or near-equal volume of wood fiber or loose bits of carbon or whatever... I mean, worst case you end up with a giant chunk of wood where your intestines used to be. Any transfigured water that's diffused into cells is at the very least going to rupture those cells, probably causing a lot of internal hemorrhaging if it's in your bloodstream, or maybe a bunch of embolisms, I don't know. The canon doesn't care about any of this, and why should it? It's a kids'/young adults series about wizards and witches having adventures. But if you're going to pick apart magic, I think it's not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that transfiguration *should* be mortally terrifying even if you ignore the question of where all that energy is coming from, unless you can devise some other failsafe or something.
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Sep 4, 2015 12:28
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Ok but you also have to take into account that if the water molecules that were transfigured from wood got absorbed by cells, they won't turn back into bits of wood, they'll turn back into whatever organic molecule they were originally, assuming you don't have to take the conservation of mass into account. Maybe this will lead to you getting poisoned but I don't think you'll die by having bits of wood sprouting out of you as Yud implies.
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Sep 4, 2015 12:44
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Maybe? I mean, it's not like the books talk about it. It's all pure Wood cells are complicated arrangements of cellulose, lignin, saccharides, water... a lot of stuff. The fact that transfiguration is reversible at all suggests that it's possible to turn a complex cell into, say, a puddle of elemental water molecules, and then have that puddle of molecules reform itself into complex cells again. What does that mean if you split the puddle up? Is there a 1:1 mapping between water molecule and plant cell? Water molecule and a cellulose polymer chain? Or just a single glucose unit? Regardless, one way or another magic seems capable of figuring out how to piece plant cells back together, and even reform the superstructure - you expect to get a block of wood back, not a pile of wood pulp. Given all of that, I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate that even diffused water molecules could end up turning into actual splinters of wood upon un-transfiguration, especially if mass-changing shenanigans are involved. Hyper Crab Tank fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 13:02
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If you feed something burnt to someone, he'll die of phlogiston poisoning. Duh.
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Sep 4, 2015 13:11
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Well I guess in that case the worst thing to happen to you is that you'll have a block of wood in your stomach or wherever most of the transfigured water at the time, since it sounds like as part of it turning back into a block of wood, all the molecules will have to go back to the places they originally took before turning back into whatever it was they were originally. Eh. I'm overthinking this, v  v
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Sep 4, 2015 13:16
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JosephWongKS posted:
No? That's not how it works in the books. I distinctly remember in the fourth book that Moody (actually not Moody but Crouch Jr. posing as him, but that's beside the point) Transfigured Malfoy into a ferret to teach him a lesson about assaulting fellow students, and when McGonagall found out she turned Malfoy back and her only objection was "We do not use Transfiguration on students as a punishment." Also at several points in the books Transfiguration is used on living subjects to no apparent ill effect (Hermione's teeth, for instance). Has Yud even read the books?
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Sep 4, 2015 13:57
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Mikl posted:Has Yud even read the books? No, actually.
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Sep 4, 2015 14:08
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my dad posted:No, actually.
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Sep 4, 2015 14:11
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No? That's not how it works in the books. I distinctly remember in the fourth book that Moody (actually not Moody but Crouch Jr. posing as him, but that's beside the point) Transfigured Malfoy into a ferret to teach him a lesson about assaulting fellow students, and when McGonagall found out she turned Malfoy back and her only objection was "We do not use Transfiguration on students as a punishment." Also at several points in the books Transfiguration is used on living subjects to no apparent ill effect (Hermione's teeth, for instance). Has Yud even read the books? [/quote] The main difference between the canon and this in terms of Transfiguration is that in the canon, Transfiguration is permanent. So it is as potentially dangerous as Yud's version because if you get transfigured into an animal, you end up with that animal's intelligence and you have to hope that someone will undo the spell for you. The exception being Animagus, which retain human intelligence in animal form. But that seems to be the only real big danger. In Yud's version, Transfiguration is temporary which leads to a whole lot of different dangers. Whether he made this change intentionally or because he never bothered reading all the books is another question. But chances are, no he didn't read all the books and forgot the details of the ones he did read in favour of fanfics. Eighties ZomCom fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 14:13
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It's because he read a ton of fanfiction, then read some of the books either before or after he decided to write his own. It's not some misunderstanding or deliberate change, it's just what he read on fanfiction.net with some sciencey words thrown in.
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Sep 4, 2015 14:16
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Cingulate posted:Only think about him I respect. Grown-ups shouldn't read books for kids. I think reading a ton of fanfiction about the books to be able to write a cult tract is actually notably worse than just reading some fantasy novels for fun.
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Sep 4, 2015 17:35
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Night10194 posted:I think reading a ton of fanfiction about the books to be able to write a cult tract is actually notably worse than just reading some fantasy novels for fun. 
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Sep 4, 2015 17:42
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EvilTaytoMan posted:The main difference between the canon and this in terms of Transfiguration is that in the canon, Transfiguration is permanent. So it is as potentially dangerous as Yud's version because if you get transfigured into an animal, you end up with that animal's intelligence and you have to hope that someone will undo the spell for you. The exception being Animagus, which retain human intelligence in animal form. But that seems to be the only real big danger. In Yud's version, Transfiguration is temporary which leads to a whole lot of different dangers. Whether he made this change intentionally or because he never bothered reading all the books is another question. And hell, even partial self-transfiguration made an appearance in the books. Viktor Krum turned himself halfway into a shark during the second task of the Triwizard Tournament. Not sure how he untransfigured himself out of that one, but I'm sure one of the many teachers present could put him right if he couldn't.
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Sep 4, 2015 18:19
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Cingulate posted:Only think about him I respect. Grown-ups shouldn't read books for kids. If reading children's books is bad, surely writing them is infinitely worse. Poor JK Rowling. If only she took your advice and realized what a huge failure she really is.
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Sep 4, 2015 18:43
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Curvature of Earth posted:If reading children's books is bad, surely writing them is infinitely worse.
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Sep 4, 2015 18:52
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Cingulate posted:This does not follow. Neither does your magnificent "I'm an adult" → "I'm obligated to enjoy only certain kinds of art" logic, but that didn't stop you.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:37
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Cingulate posted:This does not follow. I mean I'd think someone who was reading kiddie Scholastic books as an adult, and was neither learning English nor reading to their children nor working in the industry, would be kind of strange. However the Potter books seem to be on the same level as other elftomes, perhaps even more complex to follow than murder mysteries or literary hits.
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Sep 4, 2015 21:03
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JosephWongKS posted:Chapter 15: Conscientiousness Transfiguration examined in detail is always going to be problematic. If it's effects are permanent, then a whole bunch of rules need to be made up for the economy to make sense. If transfiguration is NOT permanent, anything you eat or drink is a potential deadly poison and wizards should be paranoid murderers. quote:McGonagall has just doomed one or more of her students. Chekov’s Gun all but demands that one of them will transfigure himself or herself. Like Yud has the attention for foreshadowing. Or remembering plot points.
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Sep 4, 2015 21:12
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i81icu812 posted:Transfiguration examined in detail is always going to be problematic. If it's effects are permanent, then a whole bunch of rules need to be made up for the economy to make sense. If transfiguration is NOT permanent, anything you eat or drink is a potential deadly poison and wizards should be paranoid murderers. There's clearly hefty limitations on it, and its possible to spot transfigured objects just by looking at them (Dumbledore could tell magic had been used to hide Voldemort's locket cave by the traces of magic in the cave) so counterfeit objects would be obvious to those who knew what to look for. Goblins have a good eye for that sort of thing, making them the natural choice for bankers - they could tell that a well made replica of Gryffindor's sword was fake just by glancing at it, and that skill extends to gold. Potion brewing would be a useless skillset if a skilled wizard could turn a vial of water into whatever substance he wanted, so that's probably something that can't be done. Plus there's the aforementioned limitations on food.
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Sep 4, 2015 21:51
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"Transfiguration" isn't a single thing, it's a collection of a bunch of different charms with different effects that are all related to changing things. Some are temporary, some are permanent.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:48
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Curvature of Earth posted:Neither does your magnificent "I'm an adult" → "I'm obligated to enjoy only certain kinds of art" logic, but that didn't stop you. Nessus posted:Why not? Grownups shouldn't be reading books for kids, right? Presumably this means the adult authors of those books are whatever terms of abuse you want to heap on 'em.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:48
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Interesting fact: besides the "for kids" edition, some publishers also put out an edition of the Harry Potter books "for adults", which had a single solid colour and discreet lettering on the cover as opposed to a colourful drawing. This was purportedly so grown ups could read the books in public (commuting on public transit, for example) without giving away the fact that they were reading a children's book.
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Sep 5, 2015 00:06
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The Shortest Path posted:"Transfiguration" isn't a single thing, it's a collection of a bunch of different charms with different effects that are all related to changing things. Some are temporary, some are permanent. Literally a wizard does it for whatever Rowling needed. That's as much thought that was put into it because the intricacies of how magic works had nothing to do with the story being told.
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Sep 5, 2015 00:28
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Magic was used exclusively for world building and plot devices. Lots of things in the series don't make any sense or aren't explained because of this. Basic questions like "what makes a wizard good at wizarding" just aren't addressed because it doesn't really matter
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Sep 5, 2015 00:51
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Death Bot posted:Magic was used exclusively for world building and plot devices. Lots of things in the series don't make any sense or aren't explained because of this. Basic questions like "what makes a wizard good at wizarding" just aren't addressed because it doesn't really matter The main thing I noticed about magic in my last reading of the books was that the more advanced spells required the user to be feeling a certain emotion (happiness for the Patronus, killing intent for Avada Kedavra, sadistic glee for Crucio, etc) so one of the things a wizard must definitely master is their emotions so they can feel the correct one on command no matter what might be distracting them. Even the unintentional magic children do is fueled by this - Harry's anger at his aunt caused him to blow her up, and his desire to free the snake/punish Dudley made the glass vanish at the zoo. Harry manages to use Sectumsempra perfectly on the first try despite not knowing what it does simply because he was in the correct state of mind when he used it against Malfoy. It's one of the reasons Yud gets HP's magic so wrong - he tries to treat it like science, which doesn't care about emotion or the mindstate of the person performing it.
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Sep 5, 2015 01:08
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Even the big accidental magic that set the whole thing off was caused by Lily's love for her son and desperate desire to protect him.
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Sep 5, 2015 01:16
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i81icu812 posted:Transfiguration examined in detail is always going to be problematic. If it's effects are permanent, then a whole bunch of rules need to be made up for the economy to make sense. If transfiguration is NOT permanent, anything you eat or drink is a potential deadly poison and wizards should be paranoid murderers. Wizards are inherently magical. They are to muggles what dragons are to lizards. Neville Longbottom is dropped out a window as a child and, despite being bad at deliberate magic, is still "magic enough" that he bounces harmlessly off the floor. Harry regrows his hair overnight when he gets a forced haircut as a child. There's (legal) rules and a system in place for the handling of unconscious/accidental magic. There's no reason not to think that a witch or wizard, on consuming something that's been transfigured, would not have their body magically expel it once the transfiguration wears off -- the same way eating spoiled food might get you sick, or might give you food poisoning, but very rarely kills you (especially if you have access to medical care or in this analogy, a more experienced magical adult). No one's going to suggest drinking a cup of milk left out for a week isn't dangerous and bad, but I doubt it's fatal.
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Sep 5, 2015 02:31
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I think Yud's system (and in fairness, Rowling is not the best at keeping things consistent, so harry potter fanfic that looks at all beyond the scope of exactly what happens in the books pretty much HAS to involve coming up with your own system that maps as close as you can to what happens in the books) is that there are individual charms that do specific transformations, but aren't strictly speaking transfigurations, which is a general method of turning any given thing into any other thing.
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Sep 5, 2015 09:45
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:But if you're going to pick apart magic, I think it's not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that transfiguration *should* be mortally terrifying even if you ignore the question of where all that energy is coming from, unless you can devise some other failsafe or something. OK, but if you're making that change, how can you possibly justify teaching it to children (or anyone)?
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Sep 5, 2015 13:15
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Mikl posted:Interesting fact: besides the "for kids" edition, some publishers also put out an edition of the Harry Potter books "for adults", which had a single solid colour and discreet lettering on the cover as opposed to a colourful drawing. This was purportedly so grown ups could read the books in public (commuting on public transit, for example) without giving away the fact that they were reading a children's book.  
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Sep 5, 2015 13:38
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That's what I was talking about, thanks for finding it for me. I misremembered the "solid colour" part, but contrast the cover above with the following first UK edition: 
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Sep 5, 2015 14:10
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The book collections are kind of hilarious to look at, because you've got three kinda thin novels, one that seems about "normal" width, and then three goddamn doorstoppers. Come to think of it, I should read those again. I haven't read the last two since they were released.
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Sep 5, 2015 14:23
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Tiggum posted:OK, but if you're making that change, how can you possibly justify teaching it to children (or anyone)? You really can't. It's screwed up no matter how you look at it, one way or the other. I mean, canon is for obvious reasons not really concerned with the question. Would it have been better for the fanfic writer (any writer, not necessarily Yudkowsky) to go full hog and just not mention transfiguration at all with the reasoning that children wouldn't be hearing about it other than saying "for the love of gently caress don't get involved in this poo poo"?
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Sep 5, 2015 15:33
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YggiDee posted:The book collections are kind of hilarious to look at, because you've got three kinda thin novels, one that seems about "normal" width, and then three goddamn doorstoppers. Come to think of it, I should read those again. I haven't read the last two since they were released. The 6th book is actually really interesting if you like Voldemort backstory. It's probably the most changed when it went to film too. Also it's shorter than the 4th book actually. The 5th book is by far the longest.
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Sep 5, 2015 15:37
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Mikl posted:Interesting fact: besides the "for kids" edition, some publishers also put out an edition of the Harry Potter books "for adults", which had a single solid colour and discreet lettering on the cover as opposed to a colourful drawing. This was purportedly so grown ups could read the books in public (commuting on public transit, for example) without giving away the fact that they were reading a children's book. 
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Sep 5, 2015 19:13
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The real problem is that Yud's examples suck. If he just picked something clearly poisonous like a block of lead for his example, the point would have been made and the victim would be clearly dead regardless of how transfiguration works. There's plenty of interesting ideas that non-permanent transfiguration bring up for a competent author to explore. Treating transfiguration and magic in general rigorously, instead of as a plot device like Rowling, did could be fun. Yud explaining how the hell transfiguration transformations map would be nice, but I guess exploring the details of magic as science is not in the cards for this fanfic. i81icu812 fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Sep 5, 2015 |
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Sep 5, 2015 19:43
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It's what I expected going into it in the first place, back when I had no idea who the author was and how seriously he took some of the things in this.  There are a few attempts later on at trying to analyze some actual magic and figure out what the rules are, but they're not very good either.
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Sep 5, 2015 20:54
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Darth Walrus posted:Well, except for Hagrid, although he's kind of a special case. And then there were some of the plants they encountered in Herbology, which I seem to recall ranging from 'incapacitating' to 'ludicrously deadly'. Some of the failed experiments in the Potions class got pretty spectacular, too - melting cauldrons were something of a running gag. I think it's less that and more that magical healing is a panacea. It works well enough that pretty much anything that doesn't instantly kill you can be recovered from.
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Sep 6, 2015 06:21
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