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mandatory lesbian posted:did y'all miss the Markov generator part of that post? the dudes point was off-color alternate costs are cool, the actual card doesn't matter The Markov generator made up this incredibly better version of levelers one time edit: Better like more cleanly designed, not power level wise. I think it gave a permanent an ability to unsummon itself after spending six mana over two turns or something incredibly useless.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:02
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2MB posted:It'd be an interesting design challenge to make a cycle of cards that gave you enemy colored effects by exiling a card of those colors. Example: A red/black instant that could be terminate for it's normal casting cost or it could be giant growth/cantrip if you exile a Green/Blue card instead of paying its mana cost. It'd be similar to hybrid mana by allowing decks to get effects outside their colors. Seems really clunky in practice since it essentially forces you into 4 colors. You're reinventing split cards only worse.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:03
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mandatory lesbian posted:did y'all miss the Markov generator part of that post? the dudes point was off-color alternate costs are cool, the actual card doesn't matter If that were a real card, I would not care at all what the upper right said, I'd play it in infect with just the text.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:03
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Cards that can be cast for free is design space they will likely never move back in to again, mostly because of broken eternal interactions but also free cards have kind of proven time and again to be busted, generally because the limiting factor in most Magic design is turn economy.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:05
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Entropic posted:You're reinventing split cards only worse. But if they're worse then there's a chance we could see them again.  (i miss split cards)
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Sep 4, 2015 22:06
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Yeah it turns out making cards that ignore the whole mana thing tend to be busted tho i do hope they make the mistake of thinking they can fix Phyrexian Mana one day
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Sep 4, 2015 22:07
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rabidsquid posted:Cards that can be cast for free is design space they will likely never move back in to again, mostly because of broken eternal interactions but also free cards have kind of proven time and again to be busted, generally because the limiting factor in most Magic design is turn economy. Cost Reduction mechanics are always something they will say "yeah, that's dangerous, we messed up in that space before so we'll probably be super careful about doing it ever again" and then keep doing it again every so often anyway. I mean how busted could an overpriced Ancestral Recall with Affinity For Graveyards be?
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Sep 4, 2015 22:15
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Veyrall posted:Looks like MTGSalvation is calling the bofangolands "latelands" What does bofango mean?
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Sep 4, 2015 22:16
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mandatory lesbian posted:Yeah it turns out making cards that ignore the whole mana thing tend to be busted It's pretty easy to fix at least part of the problem by just always including one non-phyrexian colored mana symbol in the cost so the cards aren't castable in literally every deck. I mean Dismember would have been a very different card at (B/P)(B/P)B instead of 1(B/P)(B/P)
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Sep 4, 2015 22:17
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I actually think Dismember was a totally okay card, the major issue with it is that it's more punishing to newer players.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:18
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The double-pitching from Coldsnap and the land pitching from Nemesis and Prophecy are the worst free spell mechanics, and even they've managed to appear in tournaments.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:20
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Kurtofan posted:What does bofango mean? Its a combination of bofalands and tangolands Ask me what bofa is
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Sep 4, 2015 22:21
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David Price for one of his Invitational card submissions had something remarkably similar in design to that, I think it was something like Goblin Infiltrator UW Creature - Merfolk Goblin Rogue 2/1 Protection from red You may discard a mountain rather than play ~'s mana cost. It might have had flash too or I might be confusing that with Vine Dryad.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:21
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What were the real mistakes with Phyrexian mana? Mental Misstep? I think the underlying mistake there was forgetting that Legacy existed. Mutagenic Growth?
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Sep 4, 2015 22:24
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I think Phyrexian mana as an addition to normal mana costs it fine. Like, a card that costed one black and one phyrexian black would probably be fine, as long as it was in line with a creature that would normally cost BB
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Sep 4, 2015 22:28
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I liked the cycle of common Phyrexian Mana artifact creatures. Porcelain Legionnaire was my jam.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:29
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Entropic posted:What were the real mistakes with Phyrexian mana? Mental Misstep? I think the underlying mistake there was forgetting that Legacy existed. Mutagenic Growth? Gut Shot was a huge mistake for Standard, quite a bit worse than Dismember.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:30
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rabidsquid posted:Gut Shot was a huge mistake for Standard, quite a bit worse than Dismember. Gut Shot was only a card in Standard because of Delver of Secrets, which was a way bigger mistake.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:33
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I hate Mutagenic Growth because it was printed alongside Infect. For a 0-mana spell, it has a ridiculously high power level when you pair it with creatures that only have to do 10 damage.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:36
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I like that "pitch a X-colored card, get a X-colored effect" idea as more of a variant on traditional Kicker costs. Something like Grow Large 1G Instant Kicker- Discard a blue card. Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn. If the kicker cost was paid, draw a card. Obviously that sub-mechanic alone couldn't support an entire block or set's worth of design, but if they do Kicker again (which they should) it would be interesting to see. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 22:40
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Entropic posted:Gut Shot was only a card in Standard because of Delver of Secrets, which was a way bigger mistake. Being able to turn 0 kill a thing is extremely powerful for negating a play advantage.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:41
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Angry Grimace posted:Its a combination of bofalands and tangolands what's bofa.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:44
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rabidsquid posted:Being able to turn 0 kill a thing is extremely powerful for negating a play advantage.
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Sep 4, 2015 22:51
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Entropic posted:And that's a bad thing? It disproportionately affected the Delver decks so it kind of was. Accomplishing the right thing the wrong way skewed results in unpredictable fashion
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Sep 4, 2015 22:55
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Those free Phrexian mana spells were almost all powerful and playable, except for the ones that were so narrow as to be unplayable maindeck or at all, Marrow Shards and Surgical Extraction. The good Phyrexian spells are strong but I don't think they are too strong. You don't just toss them all into a deck and win the game. Each one provides a powerful unique effect that is utilized by a variety of decks. Gut Shot is not playable in eternal formats, but was good against Delver decks for a while in standard. Gitaxian Probe doesn't actually win you the game, it just helps you dig and gives you information, so it fits right into every blue eternal deck ever. I think if they printed another free card like that it would be too many. Mutagenic Growth is a key combo piece in Infect decks. Apostle's Blessing provides a similar service. Dismember is a nice piece of removal that nonwhite decks can use to actually deal with threats. It lets you kill things like Tasigur, Tarmogoyf, and Gurmag Angler without losing mana advantage. It's not something you usually want 4 of, because the life loss does add up after a while. Mental Misstep was a huge mistake, but they don't test for Eternal formats.  The "untap X lands" effect is too good with lands that tap for more than one mana, or effects that make your lands tap for more than one mana. If they want to make a "fixed" version of free spells they should just have you get the mana you paid for it on the spells resolution, and also make the spell overcosted up front. Like 3UU: Draw 2 cards, add 3UU to your mana pool. Dark petition and Liturgy of Blood are good examples of this, though they don't give you back all your mana and are mostly not constructed playable. But really the issue is introducing "free" spells to an environment with cost reduction effects, so you get more mana than you paid. Or Storm. The original Urza free spells got broken first because of Tolarian Academy, then because of Storm. Lets Pickle fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 23:01
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Slash Panther in Vintage is true but a little urban legendy.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:06
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slash panther only saw play bc you can cast it off workshop and it can kill jace hastily well also i saw a dude playing rage extractor in vintage shops so it did that too
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Sep 4, 2015 23:11
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Slash Panther got played for like 1 weekend during a Jace-dominated meta because he was the only card that Shops could run at 4 mana that killed a Jace. With the exception of mental misstep, I don't think any of the phyrexian mana spells were overly powered. They were certainly powerful and format defining, but outside of mental misstep I don't think any of them have broken the game. Honestly I think MM would have been fine at UU, too, but at U it is too strong. Delve is a much bigger offender because they didn't understand how to cost it effectively and printed it with known-to-be-broken high level costs. All the pitch spells are pretty fairly balanced too, with the exception of the one shoal that got broken by infect in modern 10 years after it was printed. The untap mechanic from Urza's block was loving terrible, though. The thing about "free spells" is that "free" really just needs a different cost. Paying life or paying additional cards is pretty effective at balancing the cost.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:17
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Kurtofan posted:what's bofa. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMY45JO1ZNA
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Sep 4, 2015 23:20
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Kurtofan posted:what's bofa. BOFA DEEZ NUTZ YEAH BOI
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Sep 4, 2015 23:22
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There were 26 cards with phyrexian mana in the casting cost. That includes such powerhouses as Cathedral Membrane. Two of those are banned in modern, four others are format staples, two others have seen substantial play and another two have seen some play. For perspective, the entire Theros block has no bans and three staples (not counting reprints). RTR block: One ban, two staples. The mechanic was absurdly busted, and hopefully will never be revisited.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:22
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Sigma-X posted:The thing about "free spells" is that "free" really just needs a different cost. Paying life or paying additional cards is pretty effective at balancing the cost. I think that this is dependent upon where on curve an ability is typically costed at. Some abilities utility or power level can't be accounted for with card cost at all, and realistically you could make Dismember cost 5 phyrexian symbols and it would still be amazing for killing Spellskite before you combo off.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:29
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rabidsquid posted:I think that this is dependent upon where on curve an ability is typically costed at. Some abilities utility or power level can't be accounted for with card cost at all, and realistically you could make Dismember cost 5 phyrexian symbols and it would still be amazing for killing Spellskite before you combo off. 10 life versus 1 mana on a murderous cut or nature's claim or whatever is really bad, though. Dismember costing 4 life to kill a creature is one of those things where it's very worth it sometimes and not worth it others (like, you don't play it against burn), it is fairly balanced. Force of Will is a great example of a card that costs 2 cards and is largely uncastable otherwise in the metagame and as metas shift and slow towards more fair decks it gets cut down to 3, because it's actually a really bad counterspell except for the no-mana hard counter bit. Overall I guess my point is that I think there are a lot more bad free spells than playable free spells, and there are only a few broken free spells. The thing that breaks the free spells tends to be when they don't have a reasonable cost associated with them outside of the mana cost (ie, Delve, which trades largely worthless 'resources' / has the upside of improving tasigur/selectively shrinking goyfs into Ancestral Recall and Draw Your Answer and a WinCon for UU, and Urza's untap X lands which makes it completely free / ramps). I mean, even Dream Halls and Show and Tell / Eureka as "free/cheap" spells have pretty strong drawbacks that make them fair. Omniscience can get hosed, on the otherhand
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Sep 5, 2015 00:23
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I really wonder what would have happened with Mental Misstep if it had just been a force spike, or maybe force spike for instants/sorceries like a lovely flusterstorm. As I understand it, the main reason Misstep chapped so many asses was that it disproportionately warped the format by preying specifically on 1cc spells (that in turn get disproportionately played in the high-octane eternal formats), so maybe changing it so it trolled everyone equally and was simultaneously more feasible to play around?Sigma-X posted:Force of Will is a great example of a card that costs 2 cards and is largely uncastable otherwise in the metagame and as metas shift and slow towards more fair decks it gets cut down to 3, because it's actually a really bad counterspell except for the no-mana hard counter bit. This is what I always find hilarious about the people who poo poo their pants at the thought of FoW in Standard/Modern--they don't understand that it's actually a subpar card when it's being used to counter your Siege Rhino or whatever, so it's not really the bogeyman that it seems like. But a lot of people seem to just think "The blue mage can counter my spell even when he's tapped out? SO UNFAIR!" I mean, I hate blue sometimes but if it's a choice between FoW and Snapcaster in the format, give me FoW every time. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Sep 5, 2015 |
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Sep 5, 2015 00:33
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JerryLee posted:I really wonder what would have happened with Mental Misstep if it had just been a force spike, or maybe force spike for instants/sorceries like a lovely flusterstorm. As I understand it, the main reason Misstep chapped so many asses was that it disproportionately warped the format by preying specifically on 1cc spells (that in turn get disproportionately played in the high-octane eternal formats), so maybe changing it so it trolled everyone equally and was simultaneously more feasible to play around? It would have been daze, except it doesn't actually set back your mana development in the games where that is relevant or require you to play blue
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Sep 5, 2015 00:44
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The Phyrexian mana mechanic was powerful not just because some of the spells were free, but also because they were sortof colorless. Apostle's Blessing is not an exciting effect in a white deck, but it allows you to get it in colours that normally don't have it. Dismember is in a similar position. Also Mental Misstep as Force Spike would be insane
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Sep 5, 2015 00:47
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JerryLee posted:I mean, I hate blue sometimes but if it's a choice between FoW and Snapcaster in the format, give me FoW every time. correct, this is why FoW should be in the next set
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Sep 5, 2015 00:49
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Misstep got so bad that Manaless Dredge won a legacy open in July of 2011. Why cast spells? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-04-24&end_date=2011-07-17&event_ID=20&city=Cincinnati http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22335_Finals_Caleb_Durward_vs_Nicholas_Rausch.html I think the video coverage is lost or in the process of getting converted over to youtube as scg doesnt have much from 2011 on there yet. Personally I think fow would be fine in standard, but do not want it in modern at all. Twin does not deserve force of will.
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Sep 5, 2015 00:56
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C-Euro posted:if they do Kicker again (which they should) it would be interesting to see.
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Sep 5, 2015 01:04
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Bugsy posted:Misstep got so bad that Manaless Dredge won a legacy open in July of 2011. Why cast spells? Honestly more sickened that Wild Nacatl used to be played in legacy
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Sep 5, 2015 01:24
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