Is there a thread for Pathfinder Online?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The MMO HMO > Is there a thread for Pathfinder Online?

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Anticheese: Feb 13, 2008; $60,000,000 sexbot

Does anyone have some links to posts where Dancey has expressed a lot of goonfear?

# ? Sep 4, 2015 08:49

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 12:06

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

Anticheese posted:

Does anyone have some links to posts where Dancey has expressed a lot of goonfear?

quote:

I know exactly why the Goons came to EVE. They'll not find the laissez faire reception in Pathfinder Online that they did from CCP. We have to treat the Goons, and folks like them with the Litany Against Fear. (Or maybe the Serenity Prayer)

I play a lot of poker. There's almost nothing in the "rules of poker" about player behavior. (Well, the WSOP seems to be going down that route; maybe they'll wise up before it gets out of hand, but I digress). In poker there's all sorts of behavior that isn't pleasant, but also doesn't break the community standards for behavior. On the other hand, there are such standards and if you've been around that world for even a short period of time, you'll see them and you'll see them enforced.

This situation evolved because the people who created that world had very strict personal standards for what was and was not OK, and they used the tools at their disposal to embue poker society with those same standards. They perpetuate themselves because most people in the community prefer those standards to a "be as jerky as you want as long as you don't violate the letter of the law" society.

Some of that is enforced by the host of the game. Some is enforced by the dealer at the table. Some is enforced by other players. Some is enforced by the community as a whole. Multi-layered, multi-faceted.

And it evolves. Behavior towards women that was accepted in the past is often not today; poker society adapts. New faces show up who have little direct experience with their community except the medium of chat boxes and maybe discussion forums; yet they are swiftly mainstreamed (or the community violently rejects them and they drift away).

Poker's not the answer for MMOs but it's an example of a community where there's a lot of hard core competition and mind games and even some pain and suffering that has not allowed itself to degenerate the way some MMOs have; or walled itself off behind attempts to make rules for human behavior that anticipate every kind of wrongdoing and the process for redressing those grievances.

Only in MMOs (in my experience) is the intolerable tolerated. Like I said, it's the Original Sin of the format. It has tainted and warped the field since Ultima Online (and really, even before in some respects).

A key rule of business is that you look for need/gaps. Things people want but that they can't get. Giving folks a game where there is PvP, but not grief, seems to be to be a valuable need/gap.

Feel free to mine your own!

http://forum.rpg.net/search.php?searchid=2226109

Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Sep 4, 2015

# ? Sep 4, 2015 09:04

Hesiod: Apr 17, 2003

Ratzap posted:

Even with that all but death notice, they still won't acknowledge that the core design is garbage. They should have thrown Dancey under the bus, admitted the game is awful but it was all his fault honest and please come give us more money plebs so we can fix it.

If you follow their careers you'll find that Dancey and Lisa have a very similar company history...

# ? Sep 4, 2015 09:12

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Wasn't Lisa Stevens the lady that saved TSR though? And certainly I'd peg her a couple notches over Dancey in business acumen as far as isolating Dancey into Goblinworks assuming she couldn't dump his rear end altogether.

# ? Sep 4, 2015 09:27

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

Over time we'll make as many different kinds of career deep and interesting as we can. It's absolutely part of the plan that running a Tavern is something that people will specialize in and that some will be run better than others, etc.

We're going to take a very hard, very arbitrary line on griefing.

My opinion is that this is one of the areas of the game where we can make a significant contribution to the state of the art. Griefing is the Original Sin of sandbox MMOs (some would argue all MMOs). There's a place for active PvP, and for people to suffer unwanted consequences as a result of their actions and the actions of other players. But there's no place in Pathfinder Online for people who seek to cause others emotional distress just for the lulz.

Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Sep 4, 2015

# ? Sep 4, 2015 09:29

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

gradenko_2000 posted:

Wasn't Lisa Stevens the lady that saved TSR though? And certainly I'd peg her a couple notches over Dancey in business acumen as far as isolating Dancey into Goblinworks assuming she couldn't dump his rear end altogether.

No. Or, at least, that's not quite the case.

Lisa Stevens was heavily involved in the founding of three tabletop RPG companies: White Wolf, Wizards of the Coast, and Paizo. I think it's fair to say that none of these companies would exist without her, or at least would have been as successful. She's probably one of the key people in RPGs, having been heavily involved with creating what are probably at least three out of the five biggest companies in the "RPG industry", if you dare to call it an industry, anyway.

However, I think she - and Paizo - have a keen awareness that RPGs are a volatile industry. After all, White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast both sold out to larger companies, after all, and it's fair to say it's hard to pay the bills with RPGs alone. Paizo's been trying to diversify since the early days with magazines like Star Wars Insider or Amazing Stories. I imagine the dream with Pathfinder Online was to try and build a cash cow that would improve the long term prospects of the company beyond RPG publication. Of course, there was always the safety net of making Goblinworks its own entity. I don't think Pathfinder Online was constructed on entirely cynical grounds or as a scam per se, but by a bunch of people who had a dream for their business' future, even if it was the RPG equivalent of the Springfield monorail.

TL;DR never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

# ? Sep 4, 2015 13:25

A Catastrophe: Jun 26, 2014

It's pretty clear that they Go Back and he's part of that inner circle from the old days.
He probably capitalized on this, on his linkedin (or whatever) he notes he was a consultant for pathfinder online before Goblinworks was founded with him as ceo (or whatever).
This suggests he's been trying to set this up for a while with them, seeking to parlay his contacts with them into a paying gig.

Add to this the fact that while Paizo is overall very well run, and Lisa Stevens is probably the best person running any company in that entire odd, tiny little industry, they still have one big flaw:

They don't really know how to make games.

They're great at everything else: Art, community outreach, promotions, organized play, their relationships with freelancers and retailers are probably top notch- but their main product is a pile of garbage. It's popular garbage, but it's still garbage.
it's a very flawed, dysfunctional game, which has the advantage of a built in playbase who are used to its flaws to the point where they see them as merits and get angry when people try to fix them.

And that's fine. They sell poo poo, people buy it. But that group of people are probably not going to make good decisions when deciding to make a new game, least of all one in such a notoriously difficult, resource intensive, and risky area as mmos.

See, not only are they bad at making games, but they think (with good cause) that they're GOOD at making games. They do it for a living! They're really successful, in a really tough industry!
If you think the average group of idiots who decide to make an mmo are wading hip deep in the Dunning�Kruger effect well, they ain't got nothing on these people.

So they look at this idea, and, hey they've played mmos! They make rpgs! And their friend Ryan worked at CPP and is making such a good pitch!
(And i'm pretty sure some of the primaries loove them some mmo from the sounds of those blogs).

The result is a comical pile of arbitrary mechanics, a kitchen sink wishlist, and a stunning lack of self-awareness. Because that's what they think it takes to make a game. They sit around and do that all day, and then sell the result, and make money off of it. And their fans love it.

Now to be fair, they do have other projects- they have an adventure card game and for all i know, it might be really WELL made. Obsidian is porting it to tablets!

But it's clear that in the case of this 'MMO', they've embarked on a truly absurd quest fueled by their own poor judgement, particularly the one part of their business that they're no good at: the actual 'making games' part.

A Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Sep 4, 2015

# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:08

Hesiod: Apr 17, 2003

https://soundcloud.com/duffy-swiftshadow/keepside-chat-with-lisa-stevens-9215

There's a 60 minute sound clip of her basically bawling on the internet if you're into that sort of thing

# ? Sep 4, 2015 15:46

ImpactVector: Feb 24, 2007; HAHAHAHA FOOLS!!
I AM SO SMART!

Uh oh. What did he do now?; Nap Ghost

A Catastrophe posted:

Now to be fair, they do have other projects- they have an adventure card game and for all i know, it might be really WELL made. Obsidian is porting it to tablets!

It compares okay to most theme-first games ("experience generators" I think is the current buzzword), but no, from a design perspective it's nothing special.

I only played it the once, but I don't remember making any interesting decisions. It's usually either pretty obvious what you need to do or arbitrary enough that it doesn't matter.

# ? Sep 4, 2015 16:27

Bluddwolf: Jul 21, 2015

Hesiod posted:

https://soundcloud.com/duffy-swiftshadow/keepside-chat-with-lisa-stevens-9215

There's a 60 minute sound clip of her basically bawling on the internet if you're into that sort of thing

At least Lisa Stevens is committed to trying to turn things around. I have a long term prepaid subscription anyway, so I might as well ride it out.

I did receive the ire of one, apparently huge Ryan Dancey fan, and since he gets so upset I post things here.....

PFOFIREFIGHTER posted:

Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon posted:

And now under Lisa's leadership I'm hopeful and committed to do whatever I can to support her in moving this game forward. I've made no bones about it, I have always believed the game would be in a better place without Ryan Dancey at the helm. I've been saying that for over two years. I predicted he would never last until OE.

Yeah and you had to badmouth the game over, and over again. On any site you could find. Including the Goons. That's why nobody ever stuck with your stupid settlement. Who would want to play with a psycho that recruits you into a game and then spends all his time bad mouthing it. Then blame the game when they leave.

You're like the guy who pays to see a movie. Doesn't like it. And somehow feels entitled to stand outside the movie theater yelling how bad it is, while sneaking in every few days to watch it again. Then stepping it up by recruiting people to watch it with you, spending an hour telling them how bad the movie they are watching is, and then blaming the movie when they stand up and leave.

You and your fellow Goons are like a cancer on whatever you touch.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 03:54

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Bluddwolf posted:

You and your fellow Goons are like a cancer on whatever you touch.

Except goons never touched it, so um...

# ? Sep 5, 2015 04:23

Bluddwolf: Jul 21, 2015

dwarf74 posted:

Except goons never touched it, so um...

You may not have touched the game, but you apparently touched some of their psyche. Goon fear runs strong in some of them.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 04:45

Arrrthritis: May 31, 2007; I don't care if you're a star, the moon, or the whole damn sky, you need to come back down to earth and remember where you came from

"You're like the guy who pays to see a movie. Doesn't like it. And somehow feels entitled to stand outside the movie theater yelling how bad it is, while sneaking in every few days to watch it again. Then stepping it up by recruiting people to watch it with you, spending an hour telling them how bad the movie they are watching is, and then blaming the movie when they stand up and leave."

Does this guy even exist? Like, has anyone at all ever done this in their lives?

# ? Sep 5, 2015 05:55

Bieeanshee: Aug 21, 2000; Not keen on keening.; Grimey Drawer

I'm pretty sure he doesn't exist outside of demented arguments that wear the skins of hapless analogies in an attempt to feel desirable.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 07:05

Orv: May 4, 2011

Bieeardo posted:

I'm pretty sure he doesn't exist outside of demented arguments that wear the skins of hapless analogies in an attempt to feel desirable.

Michael Moore, is that you?

# ? Sep 5, 2015 07:59

Bieeanshee: Aug 21, 2000; Not keen on keening.; Grimey Drawer

I think I pulled something trying to out-ridiculous that guy. Ow.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 08:52

Hesiod: Apr 17, 2003

Arrrthritis posted:

"You're like the guy who pays to see a movie. Doesn't like it. And somehow feels entitled to stand outside the movie theater yelling how bad it is, while sneaking in every few days to watch it again. Then stepping it up by recruiting people to watch it with you, spending an hour telling them how bad the movie they are watching is, and then blaming the movie when they stand up and leave."

Does this guy even exist? Like, has anyone at all ever done this in their lives?

I like to call it "Sunday"

# ? Sep 5, 2015 09:09

Ratpick: Oct 9, 2012; And no one ate dinner that night.

dwarf74 posted:

Except goons never touched it, so um...

Yeah, that guy's like "How dare you have bad-mouthed this game to the goons?!" when during the earliest stages of development Ryan Dancey made it clear he didn't want goons anywhere near this game, and given how lovely the game looked most goons were more than willing to oblige him.

Then again, reading the "you and your kind ruin everything you touch" makes it almost seem like he thinks there's an insidious goon plot to destroy this game from the inside, I guess?

# ? Sep 5, 2015 09:27

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

Otisburg posted:

We're going to take a very hard, very arbitrary line on griefing.

Translation: If you're a valuable backer with more money than sense, you can grief away as much as you want, because of ~REALISM~ and ~VERISIMILITUDE~. On the slightest suspicion you might be a goon, a GM will insta-kill you as soon as you come withing 100 feet of a settlement.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 09:32

Hesiod: Apr 17, 2003

I would own all of you at pvp

# ? Sep 5, 2015 09:49

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

ImpactVector posted:

It compares okay to most theme-first games ("experience generators" I think is the current buzzword), but no, from a design perspective it's nothing special.

I only played it the once, but I don't remember making any interesting decisions. It's usually either pretty obvious what you need to do or arbitrary enough that it doesn't matter.

The ACG is really well designed, but it's strengths are in campaign play. You make interesting deck building decisions that change your capabilities for the next session and so on. It basically demands a group structure like Pathfinder itself: you need a consistent group for six months of weekly sessions, and the game mechanics get very messed up very quickly if players miss sessions.

There's no denying that Pathfinder is a horrible rules system, but I don't think that's actually an indicator of the talent of the game designers they have. They've made a lot of interesting decisions and killed a number of sacred cows over the last year to make the game better. A number of their designers have spoken on Paizo's message boards about the issues with the system and how they would change things going forward. James Jacobs, in particular, noted that they had a lot of more radical ideas for the system originally, but stuck to something less controversial because Pathfinder was essentially Paizo's lifeline after WotC cut them off at the knees by pulling the D&D magazines away and then switching to 4e.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 10:19

Freakazoid_: Jul 5, 2013; Buglord

Comrade Koba posted:

Translation: If you're a valuable backer with more money than sense, you can grief away as much as you want, because of ~REALISM~ and ~VERISIMILITUDE~. On the slightest suspicion you might be a goon, a GM will insta-kill you as soon as you come withing 100 feet of a settlement.

And now they're going to take a very, very arbitrary line on being able to push this game out the door.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 10:27

Bluddwolf: Jul 21, 2015

Here is another gem from this guy, but first here is my main problem with him. He is the kind of person who would Attack what someone would say because they have the anonymity to say anything because, you know...the Internet. This guy is an alt of an anonymous forum name that is not even connected to an in-game character. He has at least three layers of cowardice so he doesn't have to pay for his trolling.

PFOFIREFIGHTER posted:

Tyv Blodvaerd of Aragon posted:
PFOFIREFIGHTER posted:
Really Bludd? You go on MMORPG and complain that we fans caused the game to fail? Screw that and you. If griefers like you didn't try and ruin the game both inside and out we would all be better off.

Is that meant to be monolithic? I don't believe all fans are the same. I don't see your positive contribution, here or elsewhere. Dude your account name here is solely for the purpose of trolling. You mad bro!

And your positive contribution is what? Going on Something Awful to hype that the staff were let go? Going on MMORPG to claim that Ryan ruined the game? Hey, here's a clue: It was HIS game! You didn't like HIS game so you trolled 3rd party forums endlessly bashing him and the game. It's crap like that that turned new folks away. Here's another clue: If the CEO of Goblinworks has to personally call you out about the poo poo damage you are causing, you have zero standing to come here and complain about anyone.

I need to correct him, Ryan did not call me out, he didn't have the courage to do that himself. He asked players from the Goblin Works forums to call me out on the MmoRpg forums. Problem was, most of the people agreed with what I said.

PROFIREFIGHTER is hoping to be Ryan Dancy's butt plug. I'm so glad this guy reads SA and brought my fairly innocuous post up as being griefing. I would have never thought of exposing his lameness here if he didn't.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 12:23

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Is the paywall down?

... or is he actually a cancerous goon trying to destroy everything he touches?

# ? Sep 5, 2015 13:35

Ratpick: Oct 9, 2012; And no one ate dinner that night.

PROFIREFIGHTER seems like quite the character. Since you're probably monitoring this thread anyway, I suggest you register so you can set us goons straight on how this game is actually cool and good!

# ? Sep 5, 2015 13:52

Bluddwolf: Jul 21, 2015

Ratpick posted:

PROFIREFIGHTER seems like quite the character. Since you're probably monitoring this thread anyway, I suggest you register so you can set us goons straight on how this game is actually cool and good!

Oh he must be a registered viewer because he reposted my posts from this thread onto the Goblin Works forums.

You are a cancer he gladly paid $10.00 to continue to infect the gaming world.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 14:08

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Oh hey, PFOFIREFIGHTER , you got an account?

the sickness is inside you now

# ? Sep 5, 2015 14:16

30.5 Days: Nov 19, 2006

Bluddwolf posted:

Oh he must be a registered viewer because he reposted my posts from this thread onto the Goblin Works forums.

You are a cancer he gladly paid $10.00 to continue to infect the gaming world.

Congratulations, you are now the second dumbest person in this thread.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 14:41

Bluddwolf: Jul 21, 2015

30.5 Days posted:

Congratulations, you are now the second dumbest person in this thread.

It was an assumption on my part, since he posted all of my comments, figured he used the search function (only available to registered members, and at a higher registration level). But, maybe he just went through every post and cut and pasted.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 14:52

Anoia: Dec 31, 2003; "Sooner or later, every curse is a prayer."

Bluddwolf posted:

But, maybe he just went through every post and cut and pasted.

ding ding ding ding

# ? Sep 5, 2015 15:21

Shy: Mar 20, 2010

Bluddwolf posted:

He asked players from the Goblin Works forums to call me out on the MmoRpg forums.

Could you link that mess please? Thanks.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 16:07

Bluddwolf: Jul 21, 2015

Anoia posted:

ding ding ding ding

This is the way he displayed it, so you tell me if that can be done without registering here:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3697147&userid=215508

# ? Sep 5, 2015 16:11

Bluddwolf: Jul 21, 2015

Shy posted:

Could you link that mess please? Thanks.

I will dig that up if Ryan's posts on the Goblin Works forums have not been deleted.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 16:13

Anoia: Dec 31, 2003; "Sooner or later, every curse is a prayer."

Bluddwolf posted:

This is the way he displayed it, so you tell me if that can be done without registering here:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3697147&userid=215508

You can toggle it to show only one user's posts without an account.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 16:14

Red Metal: Oct 23, 2012; Let me tell you about Homestuck; Fun Shoe

Bluddwolf posted:

This is the way he displayed it, so you tell me if that can be done without registering here:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3697147&userid=215508

Anyone can click the question mark in the bottom left of your posts, no need to be registered

# ? Sep 5, 2015 16:15

Bluddwolf: Jul 21, 2015

Red Metal posted:

Anyone can click the question mark in the bottom left of your posts, no need to be registered

I did not know that, I'm pretty new here, but thanks for the info.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 16:21

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

I stand by my claim of the sickness being inside whatshisface.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 16:23

Bluddwolf: Jul 21, 2015

Shy posted:

Could you link that mess please? Thanks.

I found it, but not sure if you can read it without registering at Goblin Works, i'll also post the snippets here: https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/2562/?page=1

Ryan Dancey posted:

I wanted to make a new thread about this to keep the key points visible.

In my opinion, Settlement recruiting activities in the wider MMO community continue to be almost zero. With the exception of Fandis Goldbraid, Phyllain and Pinosaur, recruiting efforts visible to me in those venues are non-existent. Collectively we need to be raising awareness about individual Settlement AWESOME.

We need more recruiting on reddit:

/r/Games where people talk about videogames of all kinds.
/r/MMORPG where people talk about MMOs in particular.
/r/PathfinderOnline where people are talking about Pathfinder Online in particular.

We need it on the MMO news sites:

MMORPG.com - especially the Pathfinder Online section!. Also, MMORPG's "Hype" list has a lot of cache and seeing Pathfinder Online move up those rankings will be a huge boost to our efforts and yours!

Massively Overpowered is the new site from the people who used to run the Massively site in the Joystiq network. Same editorial team, same focus, now operating independently.

Ten Ton Hammer has been a successful place for us to interact with MMO fans and we had a very good response from advertising and editorial with them during our Kickstarter.

We need recruiting activity in the EVE community. I don't know what the best vehicle is for that, so any and all suggestions are welcome.

Settlements that are committed to growing should have someone delegated to be visible in these places making regular posts and talking about the cool stuff their Settlement is doing. When the wider community sees activity and fun, that is a powerful attractant.

Then he goes on to say this further down:

Ryan Dancey posted:

People are talking about us. If we don't participate, all that gets transmitted is a one-sided, usually inaccurate message. Engagement is crucial.

For example, do you want this to go unchallenged?

Bluddwulf
In order to fully participate in the Holding / Outpost aspects of the game that was just added, you will most likely have to join one of the three main settlements or their alliance. Actually getting to own and run an outpost / holding requires that you run escalations and defeat the escalation bosses.

Only the larger populated settlements can run these, and at the same time ensure that no one kill steals the escalation boss. You can actually spend hours running an escalation and by a stroke of luck, another team can spot the boss before your group and kill it (getting all of the rewards, including the resources needed to build an outpost / holding).

So the meaning of this sandbox is, the content is only if you join one of the big boys.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/430654/page/1#6634498

I don't.

But there is a difference between the CEO saying Bluddwulf is wrong, and players who represent Settlements and can offer support for their objections saying he is wrong.

When a few members came in and stated that I was technically not wrong, Ryan finished up with this...

Ryan Dancey posted:

It just is not true that the only Companies building Holdings and Outposts are in 3 Settlements. "Only larger Settlements can defeat escalations" is demonstrably false. Lisa, Bob & Mike did one last weekend, by themselves. That is not a high bar.

These are the kinds of messages that need to be challenged by the community and are EXCELLENT recruiting opportunities.

What Ryan missed in my statement were the qualifiers: "you will most likely have to" and "and at the same time ensure that no one kill steals the escalation boss."

As I have said, the game does have a second chance to maybe salvage this thing, especially with Ryan gone. They do need a new investor / developer or publisher to give it that second chance. I hope that they do, but I've learned from this, never to go near anything with Ryan Dancey associated with it (I never heard of him before PFO, even though I played EVE when he was there).

This will probably not be my last time I foolishly part with some money, I chalk that up to gaming as a hobby.

Bluddwolf fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Sep 5, 2015

# ? Sep 5, 2015 16:46

Ratpick: Oct 9, 2012; And no one ate dinner that night.

I think it's pretty weird that SA user Bludwulff and that weird guy called PROFIREFIGHTER are using this thread as some kind of weird proxy to their internet grudge on the Goblinworks forums.

# ? Sep 5, 2015 17:58

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 12:06

Hypocrisy: Oct 4, 2006; Lord of Sarcasm

Bluddwolf posted:

At least Lisa Stevens is committed to trying to turn things around. I have a long term prepaid subscription anyway, so I might as well ride it out.

Why do you have a long term prepaid subscription?

Why do you think Lisa Stevens is committed to anything but letting Pathfinder Online ignobly die?

# ? Sep 5, 2015 18:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The MMO HMO > Is there a thread for Pathfinder Online?

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