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I find it fascinating how a lot of people in this contest seem to be so wedded to the idea that leftism is always naive or a poor strategic choice that they end up doing astonishingly stupid things. I think there's a really good essay to be written on how a lot of Blairite "pragmatism" may not in fact be pragmatic at all, and was wondering if it had already been written?
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Sep 6, 2015 19:22
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thespaceinvader posted:Why do the people writing these articles assume that all refugees will never work and just be a burden on the state? Because they are self-indulgent entitled shits and expect everyone else to be too?
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Sep 6, 2015 19:39
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That's what I really don't get about the refugee crisis attitudes. Logic suggests that it costs money to be able to move. Either you need to stockpile supplies, pay for transport, or otherwise have resources to travel. The people who can move the easiest are the people who have more money, the people who have more money are disproportionately likely to be educated and/or skilled in some way which earns money. Therefore, surely a disproportionate number of the people fleeing Syria are going to be educated or skilled tradespeople, as well as people who don't want to fight. So we have an influx of economically valuable people with a dislike of violence wanting to come live in the country. Oh my god this is utterly terrible how can we possibly manage this crisis. I get that from a political perspective it's much harder when you're unable to provide jobs for current residents and are ideologically opposed to any sort of investment on the part of the government but surely this would be an absolute goldmine for a government looking to grow the economy and with parliamentary sovereignty the way it is, because you can make a compelling argument that even workfare in the UK is better than being stuck in a camp somewhere being bombed to poo poo or freezing to death. Take people in, fund them as best you can to get them set up, get them all doing jobs building houses or working trades or whatever they're qualified for. If you can't find a use for people willing to work for the pleasure of not being shot or starving then something is direly hosed up. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 19:45
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Renaissance Robot posted:How long do you think it'll take for us to have a mainstream admission that Corbyn is nowhere near hard left? I suspect this is an Overton Window thing and thus probably won't happen until/unless it shifts even further left (which probably won't be until after they're writing history books about this period) I don't really have any objection to the 'hard left' label - it locates him within the Labour party (i.e. as a Bennite, which is accurate, as far as I know) rather than within the left as a whole (by which measure he's kind of in the middle, between the reformist and revolutionary wings). I *do* have a problem when Blairites are described as moderates, however.
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Sep 6, 2015 19:50
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OwlFancier posted:I'm imagining one of those terrible pottery abominations with them all in a bundle with princess diana in the background and they're all angels or something. This sort of thing? 
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Sep 6, 2015 20:08
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Likewise. I want hard left, but somehow the fuckers are trying to describe this as some sort of communist revolution and ignoring the fact that the labour voters seem to be a bit smarter than the bullshit soundbites offered by tossers 1, 2 and 3. e: every one except jezza is poo poo in any of the debates, they are all drones, preened and primed with bollocks, i will never vote for labour again if you fuckers elect one of them Seaside Loafer fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 20:12
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OwlFancier posted:That's what I really don't get about the refugee crisis attitudes. The people who are wealthy and well educated probably have a better route into Europe than paying smugglers to ship themselves across the Med on deathtrap boats. I would be interested to see any statistics on this but a lot of the refugees seem to be in fairly low-skilled occupations.
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Sep 6, 2015 20:16
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OwlFancier posted:That's what I really don't get about the refugee crisis attitudes. Someone said to me the other day "why aren't these people fighting for their country". I've also heard "they're middle class therefore they'll be fine". People just sometimes don't do that extra legwork that empathy or critical thinking does for you.
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Sep 6, 2015 20:18
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oxford_town posted:The people who are wealthy and well educated probably have a better route into Europe than paying smugglers to ship themselves across the Med on deathtrap boats. I would be interested to see any statistics on this but a lot of the refugees seem to be in fairly low-skilled occupations. I would assume a sort of middle ground, not completely unskilled or unable to afford to move/not fight, but equally not wealthy enough to secure conventional immigration.
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Sep 6, 2015 20:21
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oxford_town posted:The people who are wealthy and well educated probably have a better route into Europe than paying smugglers to ship themselves across the Med on deathtrap boats. I would be interested to see any statistics on this but a lot of the refugees seem to be in fairly low-skilled occupations. I don't think wealthy and well-educated people necessarily do have better options, the consistent picture is that the West aren't really taking people in via legitimate routes, didn't we only let in 216 or something? And the drowned kid's family had applied to join their relatives in Canada, who also said they would take a large number but haven't been, and were turned down. There was a story on Radio 4 earlier about a family that had worked in tourism and spoke 4 languages who had been repeatedly turned down by everyone from Austria to Qatar. e: It was Romano Prodi, not a German. quote:In an interview with the Observer, Prodi said the UK should have recognised the moral imperative – and economic benefit – of taking up its quota, which would have amounted to some 18,000 people. XMNN fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 20:25
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lmaoboy1998 posted:Imagine visiting New Zealand and thinking "This is one the world's five richest cultures." New Zealand does have a rich cultural history, although as it's not from white people I guess it doesn't count?
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Sep 6, 2015 20:50
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I don't think Peter Hitchens was thinking about the Maori in his big white power diatribe.
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Sep 6, 2015 20:59
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Undead Hippo posted:The Tories stepped away from that brink back in 2005. The biggest difference is the tories can always expect a compliant and soft media. Labour expects the opposite. Peel posted:Scotland, of course, is just down to 'emotion and identity'. As I've seen in other places, Scotland and Labour's policies weren't hugely far apart under Miliband; the big difference was the Miliband establishment was perpetually ashamed of their policies and responded to every criticism by cowering and sprinting rightward in rhetoric. OvineYeast posted:I don't really have any objection to the 'hard left' label - it locates him within the Labour party (i.e. as a Bennite, which is accurate, as far as I know) rather than within the left as a whole (by which measure he's kind of in the middle, between the reformist and revolutionary wings). Yeah, either Corbyn's far left and Blairites are far right, or one's mid left and one's centrist with a few nice sounding bits. No shenanigans.
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Sep 6, 2015 21:00
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XMNN posted:I don't think Peter Hitchens was thinking about the Maori in his big white power diatribe. Of course he wasn't, it doesn't mean we should be
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Sep 6, 2015 21:03
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oxford_town posted:The people who are wealthy and well educated probably have a better route into Europe than paying smugglers to ship themselves across the Med on deathtrap boats. I would be interested to see any statistics on this but a lot of the refugees seem to be in fairly low-skilled occupations. Wealthy as in seriously wealthy, sure. Well educated, well, maybe if they can get a reference for their postgraduate degree from their Syrian university that has been bombed to the ground or occupied by Isis, maaaaaaybe. But there are lots of people who are not unskilled or dirt poor but also don't have preferential access to Europe. I mean I'm an experienced programmer making a decent wage, but I'm not wealthy and it would still be hard for me to immigrate to the UK based on my skills or my financial resources even if I weren't trying to do so from a literal warzone, kind of thing.
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Sep 6, 2015 21:18
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the death of the papers can't come soon enough
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Sep 6, 2015 21:59
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Jose posted:the death of the papers can't come soon enough Haven't right wing Greek papers run at a loss basically forever? I doubt the papers defending the City of London Corporation will ever be shut down for not selling enough ad-space, they'll just be propped up by some nebulous trust.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:03
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its more about who reads them and that they vote in huge numbers
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Sep 6, 2015 22:07
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Jose posted:the death of the papers can't come soon enough it is happening  just not fast enough
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Sep 6, 2015 22:23
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How come the evening standard discovered the portal into the mirror universe?
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Sep 6, 2015 22:25
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OwlFancier posted:How come the evening standard discovered the portal into the mirror universe? It went to free distribution. Shame the Mail is one of the more stable arse wipes.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:26
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What happened to The Independent 2011/12? Everything other than the Evening Standard's got a fairly stable decline, but that just plummeted
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Sep 6, 2015 22:29
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The main problem with the Mail is theyre running a successful online gig.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:29
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coffeetable posted:it is happening The Evening 'you get what you pay for' Standard going full propaganda for the last 6 years suddenly makes sense.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:29
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RobotNinjaHornets posted:What happened to The Independent 2011/12? Everything other than the Evening Standard's got a fairly stable decline, but that just plummeted the i was launched late 2010
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Sep 6, 2015 22:32
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RobotNinjaHornets posted:What happened to The Independent 2011/12? Everything other than the Evening Standard's got a fairly stable decline, but that just plummeted They launched i in late 2010 so presumably a bunch of readers just switched.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:34
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Vitamin P posted:The Evening 'you get what you pay for' Standard going full propaganda for the last 6 years suddenly makes sense. The Morning Star isn't going to get many takers in the square mile, or on commuter trains. Its still marginally better than the Metro, which is like a God awful mix of Hello and the Beano.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:36
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coffeetable posted:it is happening I meant to ask last time this got posted: does it take into account their online arms? Because it seems like a bunch of papers are going great guns on the intertubes. Also *twitch* at those out-of-scale-with-one-another axes.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:38
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thespaceinvader posted:I meant to ask last time this got posted: does it take into account their online arms? Because it seems like a bunch of papers are going great guns on the intertubes. I believe last time it got posted someone complained about the axes too and I can't recall if someone changed them.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:41
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Guavanaut posted:Because they're not allowed to work under the laws relating to refugee movement. The whole idea of the international refugee laws is that they are allowed shelter for their protection from persecution, not for economic incentives (either for employers or employees), so they are usually prevented from working. They may at a later point choose to apply to become naturalized or immigrate via another channel and work, or they may return home once conditions improve, but that's beside the point, because the international treaties on refuge and safe asylum aren't there for economic reasons, they're for trying to stop incidents like the voyage of the St. Louis happening again by imposing a moral imperative on all nations. That's not quite right. You're not allowed to work while your asylum application is being processed (6 months, maybe years) or has been rejected. But once it's been accepted you get limited leave (usually 5 years) to remain and are allowed to work until that runs out, or your case can be reviewed by the Home Office early. You are able to reapply under the same conditions when it does expire if the situation you fled merits it. And you can go down another route like applying for citizenship if you're here long enough, or a spousal visa.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:43
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thespaceinvader posted:Also *twitch* at those out-of-scale-with-one-another axes. Cabinet posted:The main problem with the Mail is theyre running a successful online gig. They aren't really though.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:45
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thespaceinvader posted:Also *twitch* at those out-of-scale-with-one-another axes. They're showing changes in each paper's circulation relative to its peak during that period, they're not comparing totals
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Sep 6, 2015 22:50
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Trickjaw posted:The Morning Star isn't going to get many takers in the square mile, or on commuter trains. Its still marginally better than the Metro, which is like a God awful mix of Hello and the Beano. The Metro is alright, at least it's very neutral. It's like the Facebook feed of your 6 boringest friends printed out each morning. I'll take that over the Standard slime any day.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:53
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Gonzo McFee posted:
 Nice spoof cover right ? 
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Sep 6, 2015 22:55
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The metro is owned by the mail
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Sep 6, 2015 22:57
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thespaceinvader posted:I meant to ask last time this got posted: does it take into account their online arms? Because it seems like a bunch of papers are going great guns on the intertubes. The Daily Mail and the Guardian both have globally successful websites, neither of which make any money. Newspaper profits are all in the advertising space sold in hard copies.
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Sep 6, 2015 22:57
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Someone linked to or posted the actual quote from Corbyn that got turned into CLAUSE 4 but I can't find it now. Has anyone else got it? (the quote not the clause)
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Sep 6, 2015 22:59
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Vitamin P posted:The Metro is alright, at least it's very neutral. It's like the Facebook feed of your 6 boringest friends printed out each morning. I'll take that over the Standard slime any day. The Metro is probably even worse than the Mail because the hatefulness is done through subtext, careful word-choices and general editorial decisions (which story goes where). The Standard is blegh, although the 'younger' writers (Godwin, Unwin) have done a decent job of calling Labour's anti-Corbyn agenda out as bullshit.
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Sep 6, 2015 23:05
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Phoon posted:The metro is owned by the mail Yeah but when you actually read it it's blandly inoffensive.
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Sep 6, 2015 23:06
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thespaceinvader posted:Also *twitch* at those out-of-scale-with-one-another axes. things like 'keep axes in scale' and 'zero the axes' and 'don't use pie charts' are good rules of thumb, but there are times when it's okay to break them e: if you use a rainbow colormap though you better be plotting an actual rainbow coffeetable fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Sep 6, 2015 |
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Sep 6, 2015 23:08
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