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Wah I have missed the Arena Keys. They really seem like something I wouldn enjoy over WoT, as I am now in WoW.
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Sep 6, 2015 05:10
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Stephen9001 posted:Hey Shalcar! Your great Shogun 2 Let's play (which last I checked still isn't finished...) is why I got Shogun 2 (which is also my first ever total war game) and I have to agree (from what I've played) that Shogun 2 is a great game! Considering what I've heard about other total war games, I think I'll hold off on getting another one until Total War: Warhammer. Thanks! As with everything LP ever, real life happened and I simply didn't have the time to finish it and had to let it go. I do still plan to finish the LP, but I've changed tack to finishing the entire thing and then posting it out weekly once it's done so that no matter what actually happens in real life, I'll be able to finish it since we are close enough to the end that it's feasible. Probably won't be ready to go for another few months though and I have no idea how to restart the thread, since just reposting all my updates would basically kill every browser ever but throwing in a whole bunch of bump posts seems like a really bad idea. I'll have a chat to the LP mods about the best way to do it, but I'm not too worried because as I said, won't be for a few months yet anyway. Koramei posted:Huh I've been wondering about this actually, how often do you guys dismount your generals? 'Cause I do quite a lot. Most of the time after the start of the game it feels too risky to be sending one of them off doing normal cavalry things 'cause they might get tied up and cut off, whereas they're pretty effective on foot too. Pretty rarely actually, since the -4 morale debuff from being engaged with a cavalry unit is huge, especially if I can hammer and anvil. If you can trap an ashigaru unit with one of your own and then general charge into the rear, you will pretty much rout them before they can do any real damage to your general. Don't try that against naginata or yari samurai though. Monks too, for that matter. I personally find dismounting the general is useful when you have to hold a position against yari units and have no other options, but the vast majority of the time I find the flexibility and speed of the general mounted is worth the cost of being weak to spears. It does depend on their skills though, a melee skilled general can be an absolute beast when dismounted. canyoneer posted:If you want an enemy general dead-dead, Yari Cavalry are your boys. Fast enough to get in there quickly, and with spears and an anti-cav bonus Don't overlook Light Cavalry! Cheap and easy to make, they also have a decent boost against cavalry and will tear up General units. Of course, Light Cavalry should be considered one shot units, as their poor defence and low unit count (which means slow replenishment) means that you can really only use a given unit once or twice before needing replacement. The ability to have general killing and early access to the brutal morale damage that cavalry provide at a bargain price shouldn't be underestimated. Once you can though, you are correct you should move up to Yari Cavalry, although Light Cavalry can carry you a lot further than their poor stats would indicate. Keksen posted:So I'd use No-Dachi in a similar way to cavalry (minus the weak to spears part)? Also, are the generals in Shogun 2 more like the death machines they were in Medieval 2 or more like the ones from NTW that you had to keep away from anything that looked at them sternly. No-Dachi as foot cavalry is absolutely the best way to think of them as mentioned earlier in the thread. Where cavalry rely on their innate morale shock penalty (-4 morale for any infantry unit engaged with enemy cav), No-Dachi rely on the large numbers of troops in the unit, so use appropriately. Their low armour and relatively poor defence means they will get mulched in a stand up fight, although their high attack basically means it will be an even trade with the enemy against even units like monks, but you really want to get a good charge to make the most of them. Unlike cavalry where you can still pull out and try for another charge, if you mess up your No-Dachi charge, that's it, no second chances. Nothing like them for punching through naginata samurai though, they are the only unit that will make a real impact and then trade evenly (especially once relative cost is factored in).
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Sep 6, 2015 08:49
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Nickiepoo posted:It's a game based on history, how the gently caress did someone not go 'lets let the players advance through history'. You know, like WoT. the problem is that Arena actually offers a very varied and interesting array of options but your stuck for five or six tiers with generic hoplites, javelin mans and basic sword mans. Later on you have phalanxes, hoplites, light medium and heavy infantry with unique skills, spartan hoplites which are weird as hell but still super strong, loads of cavalry types, dogs of war and various kinds of artillery. it doesn't help that you depend more on your team-mates here than in WoT\War Thunder\Dota, and pubbies are always pubbies.
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Sep 6, 2015 13:03
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shalcar posted:Thanks! As with everything LP ever, real life happened and I simply didn't have the time to finish it and had to let it go. I do still plan to finish the LP, but I've changed tack to finishing the entire thing and then posting it out weekly once it's done so that no matter what actually happens in real life, I'll be able to finish it since we are close enough to the end that it's feasible. Probably won't be ready to go for another few months though and I have no idea how to restart the thread, since just reposting all my updates would basically kill every browser ever but throwing in a whole bunch of bump posts seems like a really bad idea. I'll have a chat to the LP mods about the best way to do it, but I'm not too worried because as I said, won't be for a few months yet anyway. Good to know, and sorry for bugging you about it. Oh, whilst your here though, might I ask what you think about the upcoming Total War: Warhammer? What do you think about what you've heard so far? Think it has the potential to be good? Personally, I imagine an LP of it (from someone who had the time, obviously) would have the potential to be amazing, depending on how good the game is, of course. I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.
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Sep 6, 2015 15:16
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Mans posted:it doesn't help that you depend more on your team-mates here than in WoT\War Thunder\Dota, and pubbies are always pubbies. I cannot trust any pubbie named after a historical figure
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Sep 6, 2015 19:52
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I cannot trust any pubbie named after a historical figure Not even Winston Churchill? I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.
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Sep 6, 2015 19:53
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So if No-Dachi Samurai are your shock infantry, Naginatas would be your line anchors? In a straight up fight, how well do Naginatas fare against the main infantry cutter Katana units?
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Sep 6, 2015 22:39
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Arcsquad12 posted:So if No-Dachi Samurai are your shock infantry, Naginatas would be your line anchors? In a straight up fight, how well do Naginatas fare against the main infantry cutter Katana units? Naginata vs. Katana on equal terms will result in the Naginatas slowly but inevitably losing the fight. However when not on equal terms (every battle ever) their bonus versus cavalry and significantly more protective armor can win the day. Basically Katanas are the ultimate troop when it comes to a melee slug match, but the lack they flexibility of other melee troops. They fill their role better than anything else but it's the only role they fill. Naginatas might not be able to beat them head to head but they can ward of cavalry and much less vulnerable to arrows.
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Sep 6, 2015 23:34
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Arcsquad12 posted:So if No-Dachi Samurai are your shock infantry, Naginatas would be your line anchors? In a straight up fight, how well do Naginatas fare against the main infantry cutter Katana units? Naginatas and Katanas would probably trade pretty evenly on cost, with the Naginatas having a slight edge on the field. But I'll be honest and say that I rarely rely on Naginata units specifically because they seem too specialized of a unit to me. Katana Samurais or Yari Ashigaru can generally do the defensive job 90% as effectively, and will be more effective on the attack. I really don't have that many times where I intend to let an expensive unit hold a position unaided by cavalry or archers. Multiplayer might be a different matter since you don't have to choose between building a Naginata Dojo or a Katana Dojo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02CLp7Gj1mE
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Sep 7, 2015 04:20
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I prefer to use Naginatas as my main line mostly because they're a straight upgrade from the Yari Dojo. When coupled with a monk and spear heavy army like the Uesugi, it makes for a potent combination.
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Sep 7, 2015 05:29
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The fact that there can be such a diversity of opinion about Shogun 2 unit types is precisely why people see it as the high water mark of the series.
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Sep 7, 2015 07:29
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Kaal posted:The fact that there can be such a diversity of opinion about Shogun 2 unit types is precisely why people see it as the high water mark of the series. Coupled with the relatively focused campaign map and a period of history that forces 'Total War' in a satisfying way. You're guaranteed a good fight from coast to coast.
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Sep 7, 2015 10:08
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It should also be kept in mind there are discrepancies because whenever someone asks "is this thing good?" or whatever they will 0% of the time mention whether they are talking about the campaign or multiplayer, while most respondents default to whatever they played more of. Like, my post above is completely from a multiplayer perspective because that's what I played the most, while Arcsquad is clearly talking about the campaign. This is fine in most Total War games because they have lovely barebones multiplayer that few people care about. But Shogun 2 actually had a pretty great online system/scene.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:25
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And when talking about the campaign preferences mostly differ by faction preferences rather than somebody globally preferring to make naginata cores. Like Arcsquad mentioned them being good for Uesugi and I know other people like using them with Hojo. On the other hand, it'd be weird to use them for Oda or Shimazu and I don't think I'd ever build a bunch of No-Dachi as Takeda either. Not unit is globally bad, but there are better choices depending on the faction bonuses/what buildings you're likely to already have up to make use of them anyway.
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Sep 7, 2015 20:20
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While we're on campaigns, any general consensus on what the important things to research are? Going down the tree for whatever units your clan specializes in seems obvious, but other than that I'm not really sure what's worth it. Getting to Terrace Farms relatively quickly seems useful? In Empire I would just end up with all the techs researched halfway through the game but it looks like I'm gonna actually have to pick and choose in Shogun 2 (which is probably a good thing). Also, is the general idea of building most provinces up for economy and only recruiting units in a few developed places still the best way to go?
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Sep 7, 2015 22:01
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Keksen posted:While we're on campaigns, any general consensus on what the important things to research are? Going down the tree for whatever units your clan specializes in seems obvious, but other than that I'm not really sure what's worth it. Getting to Terrace Farms relatively quickly seems useful? In Empire I would just end up with all the techs researched halfway through the game but it looks like I'm gonna actually have to pick and choose in Shogun 2 (which is probably a good thing). It depends on the campaign a bit, but generally I'd say that a balanced approach is best. Food is always important, but so is having enough trade. And you can save a lot of money by using agents well. If you focus on any one thing, it's easy to find yourself really lacking in other areas. If I were to focus on anything, I'd say that there's a few techs that can really catalyze your units and ensure that you can field smaller and less expensive navies (like Way of the Bow in Shogun 2/RotS, which gives fire arrows, or Explosive Shot in FotS). Good navies means you can defend your trade routes and move your troops by sea, which in turn leads to significant standing koku generation and also permits you to pick up productive and defensible island fortresses.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:13
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It also depends on your difficulty level and how good you are at manually fighting battles with weaker/less forces than the opponent (or how much time you're willing to spend doing so). Going for terrace farms early isn't something I've gotten to work out quite as well on Very Hard or Legendary outside of fertile regions since my short-term funds are going to military and getting better units up quicker to expand early and defend what I've got, unless I'm going with a relatively safe start (islands) or Oda. If you're near Ikko or Catholic bullshit getting to monk techs quicker might be useful, as another consideration. Taxes and upgrading farms are both good, but only if you've got the territory (fertile) to make it matter. Getting Bushido and maybe even down to fire arrows earlier can help a lot more if you aren't taking fertile land early or if the fertile land you want is a few territories away it can make getting there slightly less painful. Good play can fill the gap too, but if I have to choose between slightly putting off my chi tech research times and spending an hour or more real time across a number of battles planning out more careful pulls and other AI abuse to win then I'm going to choose the former every time. As long as you can defend--which might involve manipulating diplomacy a bit, by asking AI to break agreements that look like future alliances--the game will most certainly wait for you on the economy side of things once you've settled into the territory you want.
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Sep 7, 2015 23:22
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I really like fighting battles so i'll usually go with that option. More blood! 
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Sep 8, 2015 00:15
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2) AKTBA-7C5YK-F4NCH 3) ZRPNZ-EEKF0-KJPC5 enjoy!
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Sep 8, 2015 13:51
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queeb posted:3) ZRPNZ-EEKF0-KJPC5 Grabbed this one, thank you!
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Sep 8, 2015 14:02
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queeb posted:2) AKTBA-7C5YK-F4NCH EDIT: ^^ Wha-hey!
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Sep 8, 2015 14:03
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In Shogun 2 I remember that I used to hike tax every other turn so that I could boost my income. I'd put it down to normal to stop rebellions so it didn't seem to have any effect save for destroying the seemingly tiny growth bonus. Did I miss something important as to why this isn't a good idea? Also is Rome 2 campaign coop actually a thing that works now? Because it wasn't on launch and really burnt me for the series.
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Sep 8, 2015 14:42
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Nickiepoo posted:In Shogun 2 I remember that I used to hike tax every other turn so that I could boost my income. I'd put it down to normal to stop rebellions so it didn't seem to have any effect save for destroying the seemingly tiny growth bonus. Did I miss something important as to why this isn't a good idea? Bumping up the taxes too high will result in negative growth and higher unrest in the cities (requiring more garrisons, possibly). My Ikko Ikki campaign was a suicide run, where I had to crank up taxes to the max in order to pay the upkeep on the armies that it took to defend my borders and keep up the conquering cadence. I was exhausting all the wealth in my regions doing so.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:39
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canyoneer posted:Bumping up the taxes too high will result in negative growth and higher unrest in the cities Yeah, but they only actually rebel after the second turn of unrest, so alternating between angry and happy seems to get you more money than simply leaving them happy and having the relatively small growth bonus build up. It's possible I'm stupid have have underestimated the growth bonus but in a campaign as 'short term' and aggressive as Shogun 2s I didn't really see a downside. I'm somewhat aware that this game came out 4 years ago and that I'm a bit late asking this question.
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Sep 8, 2015 18:02
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There is no downside if you plan to win in a low number of turns. Growth is terrible if you're constantly taking territory and have enough fertile land and trade routes to give you lots of money right now. Things will never rebel if you alternate like you said and even if they do it's free general exp. Alongside selling and breaking access agreements tax-hikes are a popular strategy for legendary games if you're going hyper-aggressive and just want to fight a lot. I don't know if it works out as well in Rise or FotS (I prefer looting there) but in base Shogun 2, especially on short games, it's the best thing you can do.
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Sep 8, 2015 20:24
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Stephen9001 posted:Good to know, and sorry for bugging you about it. Oh, whilst your here though, might I ask what you think about the upcoming Total War: Warhammer? What do you think about what you've heard so far? Think it has the potential to be good? Personally, I imagine an LP of it (from someone who had the time, obviously) would have the potential to be amazing, depending on how good the game is, of course. I've been staying completely away from anything relating to Total War: Warhammer as I want to go into it and see/read about the final complete product with no preconceived notions. Would be tough to say how good an LP could be until the game is out. Nickiepoo posted:Yeah, but they only actually rebel after the second turn of unrest, so alternating between angry and happy seems to get you more money than simply leaving them happy and having the relatively small growth bonus build up. It's possible I'm stupid have have underestimated the growth bonus but in a campaign as 'short term' and aggressive as Shogun 2s I didn't really see a downside. Just having the province in negative happiness for a turn gives you a rather hefty -25 to town wealth modifier, which ends up costing you about 5 koku for every turn remaining in the game, significantly more if it's a Metsuke province of which your first 5 should be. It takes fewer turns than you think to have a substantial impact. Growth is worth more than you would think even if you are playing fast, as administrative cost will chew up a fair chunk of the heavier tax anyway and the extra growth penalty becomes worse when you have more provinces. Unless it's an emergency or your final push, you are pretty much always better off leaving the tax rate on normal. e: It's almost always better to disband idle troops or get them where they need to go instead of having them on garrison or replenishment (Rule of thumb is if an ashigaru unit needs more than 3 turns to replenish, it's cheaper to disband and rebuild). I did an effort post on taxation in Shogun 2 ages ago, I'll have to see if I can dig it up, but in the meantime... If you want to know about the Shogun 2 economy let me tell you about the Shogun 2 economy!
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Sep 9, 2015 12:32
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shalcar posted:
Well consider me educated, jesus christ. Nice work.
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Sep 9, 2015 15:44
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Is this where you give away arena keys? 1) 9RQK8-6MRGF-2F8CC 2) HDM7B-RNGPZ-XE0GN 3) CAB66-Z4LPB-DMEWD
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Sep 9, 2015 17:44
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Back To 99 posted:1) 9RQK8-6MRGF-2F8CC Claimed. Thank you!
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Sep 9, 2015 18:40
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Back To 99 posted:2) HDM7B-RNGPZ-XE0GN Grabbed this one cheers!
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Sep 9, 2015 19:31
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Took the last one CAB66-Z4LPB-DMEWD Why go to class.
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Sep 9, 2015 19:40
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Are we allowed to talk about Arena anywhere on SA?
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Sep 9, 2015 20:37
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Are we allowed to talk about Arena anywhere on SA? Try the Total War Megathread.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:15
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shalcar posted:If you want to know about the Shogun 2 economy let me tell you about the Shogun 2 economy! So never go for Land Consolidation. Good to know. Saves me a couple thousand. I'm a little confused by your market chain graphs, however. What is Market NF supposed to stand for?
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Sep 10, 2015 01:17
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Kaal posted:The fact that there can be such a diversity of opinion about Shogun 2 unit types is precisely why people see it as the high water mark of the series. Maybe in multiplayer there's balance and room for different opinions about the best unit. In single player, the optimal choice is yari ashigaru, more yari ashigaru, and a couple light cavalry. Literally every other option is slower and weaker. Also, most building choices are a traps and worse then useless. I loved Shogun but it's campaign is the worst in total war in terms of being prone to degenerate strategies.
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Sep 10, 2015 02:51
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SickZip posted:Maybe in multiplayer there's balance and room for different opinions about the best unit. This strategy gets you completely destroyed by the first AI to get ahold of katanas.
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Sep 10, 2015 02:53
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:This strategy gets you completely destroyed by the first AI to get ahold of katanas. It seriously doesn't. Yari Ashigaru are insanely cost efficient and unit upgrades and experience are flat bonuses so cheaper units benefit more from them. Focus on unit upgrades/experience and beeline blacksmith provinces. The AI doesn't know how to focus and stack upgrades like that so by midgame my ashigaru had around the same attack as the samurai they faced (attack is the best upgrade by far). Except they were half the upkeep and twice the numbers. Your economy is incomparably stronger due to less military buildings and techs required, less food needed, and much less upkeep. You can sleep walk through legendary.
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Sep 10, 2015 03:22
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Be clear-is this 'as the Oda' or 'every race can do this'? I ask for clarity. I presume the cavalry are to tie up any archers so you don't get shot to pieces. But that presumes there's enough to keep them all from shooting. And it relies on your forces getting there before the Cavalry themselves get eaten by enemy attack. Seems plausible, though. Bloodly fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Sep 10, 2015 |
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Sep 10, 2015 09:17
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SickZip posted:It seriously doesn't. It sounds a little crazy, but I guess you usually get through the hardest part of the game mostly running ashigaru anyways. Do you do anything special in the battles or just play as if you've got a normal army? Chomp8645 posted:Try the Total War Megathread. I didn't see anybody really posting about it, so I assumed there was some NDA business. Turns out its just boring.
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Sep 10, 2015 10:04
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Nickiepoo posted:Well consider me educated, jesus christ. Nice work. It's far more detail/consideration than you need to go into to beat even Legendary, but it can help avoid some traps (like building Sake Dens for econ). Arcsquad12 posted:So never go for Land Consolidation. Good to know. Saves me a couple thousand. NF refers to the the effective NO FOOD cost of having a Market in the first building slot, since every slot after the first costs you a food. Since a base province provides 1 food, consumes 1 food and has 1 building slot, giving you a building slot for 0 food change. Upgrading a province costs you 1 additional food for 1 additional building slot, so you need to factor that into your returns. As food gives you 1 growth in every province (modified by things like tax rate, normal tax rate penalty is factored into those graphs), a market needs to have it's returns offset by the opportunity cost of the lost food. SickZip posted:In single player, the optimal choice is yari ashigaru, more yari ashigaru, and a couple light cavalry. Literally every other option is slower and weaker. Also, most building choices are a traps and worse then useless. In single player, play what is fun, everything is more than powerful enough to win using basically whatever strategy you want as long as it has some sort of solid fundamentals to it. Are massed yari ashigaru with upgrades hugely more cost effective than anything else? Sure, but that's more an intersection point of the fact that Blacksmiths are ridiculously good, the relatively easy access to experience boosting arts for yari and the disproportionate scaling of flat bonuses when applied to base units, combined with the always maximum replenishment and recruit anywhere nature of ashigaru. You can't all in on Bow Ashigaru because the same intersection points just don't apply. You are also disregarding that actually playing the "All in" yari strategy actually requires more skill at the combat portion of the game than the traditional balanced approach, pretty much to the point where you could have rolled over the game doing anything else and any new player who tries the same is going to have a tough time of it, if not fail outright the first time they run into a samurai army. Unsurprisingly, when you can use the cheapest unit in the game to reliably beat units that technically outmatch them, building better units is redundant, as is the entire building chains that support the elite units. That doesn't actually mean they are traps, just that you can win without them and so don't need to bother. The last statement is laughably false though, there hasn't been a single Total War where the best unit in every situation hasn't been either the heaviest infantry you could field or the heaviest cavalry you could field. By comparison the fact that the cheapest unit can, in certain very specific configurations and with the right upgrades become incredibly powerful (You can do the same trick to any melee unit mind you, it's just easiest with yari ashigaru) is incredibly well balanced towards various strategies. The multitude of opinions about which units to use and in what mix that exists in this thread is testament to that and they can all win Legendary, at which point "more powerful" becomes pretty academic.
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Sep 10, 2015 14:42
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