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Nintendo Kid posted:but it was initially built around mouse control (albeit weird early mouse control where forward and backward mouse motion lead to walking forward and backward, which is quite awkward). I refuse to believe anyone thought that was a reasonable control scheme
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Sep 8, 2015 01:54
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Without mouselook I actually prefer keyboard only, and I use a trackball. Old mouse controls are just too weird.
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Sep 8, 2015 01:57
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PINING 4 PORKINS posted:I refuse to believe anyone thought that was a reasonable control scheme
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Sep 8, 2015 01:57
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Shadow Hog posted:Given how many questionable default mouse control setups there are for retro FPSes, I believe it wholeheartedly. I fondly remember my dad and I playing Wolfenstein 3D together with mouse-only controls. We even coined the term "scooping" for when you had to pick up the mouse and put it back down on the opposite side of the mousepad to keep moving.
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Sep 8, 2015 02:07
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PINING 4 PORKINS posted:I refuse to believe anyone thought that was a reasonable control scheme The early days of FPS games were a wild west where nobody had any idea what they were doing, so people threw game mechanics at a wall to see what stuck. Doom and Wolfenstein are remembered partly because they were the only ones with even remotely fluid controls and gameplay, and both had multiple, much less enjoyable previous iterations before the final gameplay style was arrived upon through a process of gradual refinement and aggressive minimalism--most of the planned mechanics for both games were removed and they were extremely simple and spartan games compared to what they were originally envisioned to be. On the one hand, you had Doom, on the other hand, you had The Fortress of Dr. Radiaki. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 02:18
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Casimir Radon posted:, and I use a trackball. You and I, we're the same. What are you rocking, Kensington? Logitech?
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Sep 8, 2015 03:18
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Fun little bug I discovered in Engoo: Engoo does not do any sort of sanity check, unlike other engines, when loading external .lit files to make sure that the .lit file being loaded belongs to the .bsp file. This makes Engoo very confused when it loads maps called start.bsp that belong to mods if you have the colored light pack for the ID1 maps installed:
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Sep 8, 2015 03:39
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Segmentation Fault posted:I fondly remember my dad and I playing Wolfenstein 3D together with mouse-only controls. We even coined the term "scooping" for when you had to pick up the mouse and put it back down on the opposite side of the mousepad to keep moving. It's the only reasonable way to play Wolf3D in my opinion. Gotta scoop all my way to Hitler, yo!
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Sep 8, 2015 04:35
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Woolie Wool posted:Even Quake had (lovely) autoaim. It was Quake II when they finally stopped coddling keyboarders and forced them to use the mouse--you could try to play the game using the look up/down keyboard controls but I doubt you'd get very far. Not to boast or anything, but just recently I went through much of Q2DOS using only keyboard (I couldn't get to work mouse drivers under Freedos), and the last level I came to was Power Plant. There aren't many places where you need the vertical aim and with careful jumping you can take care of much of combat. Mostly those small winged creatures with hyper blasters provide trouble.
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Sep 8, 2015 04:39
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Well you earn my respect if you can efficiently take out Flyers (the small creatures with the wings) without the mouse.
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Sep 8, 2015 04:42
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:You and I, we're the same.  My grandma has one of these.  It's exactly as comfortable as you imagine it is.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:38
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I'm a Kensington man, rocking one of these at home: And one of these at work:  I've tried the thumb ball models as well as the Logitech Trackman Marble, and I hated them.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:44
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I played Doom and possibly Quake with the keyboard, though I must have picked up mouselook at some point because I played a lot of Quakeworld and wasn't completely terrible at it.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:47
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KozmoNaut posted:I'm a Kensington man, rocking one of these at home: Yeah, I'm using the Expert Mouse, but the model before this one, and I love it. I never want to go back. The great thing is learning to use a trackball doesn't negate regular mouse skills. (Edit: so everyone should do it!) My thumb is way less accurate than my fingers, so I hate those small-balled Logitech dealies, especially for first person shooters. I went for a trackball after watching the Black Album documentary, seeing Bob Rock use one. I work with audio, and it's incredible.
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Sep 8, 2015 10:53
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I wish Microsoft still made their Optical TrackBall. 230 dollars new on Amazon :-(
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Sep 8, 2015 11:01
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Yeah, I'm using the Expert Mouse, but the model before this one, and I love it. I never want to go back. The great thing is learning to use a trackball doesn't negate regular mouse skills. (Edit: so everyone should do it!) With my Logitech M570, which has the small side ball, I use my index finger for the ball and the other fingers for the buttons.
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Sep 8, 2015 14:40
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Wolfenstein 3D plays really well with a controller in my experience.
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Sep 8, 2015 14:50
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Nintendo Kid posted:With my Logitech M570, which has the small side ball, I use my index finger for the ball and the other fingers for the buttons. 
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Sep 8, 2015 15:11
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EDIT: Re: Trackball chat, I just love this beast so much: It's so perfect  Scyther posted:Wolfenstein 3D plays really well with a controller in my experience. True, and the Doom ports on XBLA really work well with the 360 controller. I was surprised. Also, hey TerminusEst13, I'm playing Demonsteele (with Doom 1) and just noticed the auto-turret thingy that's flying above me. Where the hell did I pick that up? I've literally never experienced it before; I was really confused why guys were getting shot as soon as I saw them, before I started firing at them myself. I checked here briefly, but didn't see anything about it. Rupert Buttermilk fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 15:12
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Also, hey TerminusEst13, I'm playing Demonsteele (with Doom 1) and just noticed the auto-turret thingy that's flying above me. Where the hell did I pick that up? I've literally never experienced it before; I was really confused why guys were getting shot as soon as I saw them, before I started firing at them myself. I checked here briefly, but didn't see anything about it. That's the sentinel, it replaces the light amplification visor.
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Sep 8, 2015 15:37
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My uncle used a keyboard for moving and flight joystick for aiming back in his Quake days. He was way ahead of his time.
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Sep 8, 2015 15:48
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Sep 8, 2015 15:50
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Megadyptes posted:That's pretty uncomfortable although I do have giant hands and need to hold my hand in an uncomfortable claw shape to get that working. using your thumb to aim is pretty loving lovely, though You don't use the tip, you basically use the underside. It's way more comfortable then trying to claw the finger over.
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Sep 8, 2015 15:56
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khwarezm posted:Honestly? Borderlands 2. drrockso20 posted:I've honestly never been too big on the Borderlands franchise, those games are way too grindy in all the worst sort of ways This is a little late but holy poo poo, Borderlands has some of the dumbest enemy design and worst shooting mechanics of any FPS I've ever played. Borderlands 1&2 are games that survive in spite of the shooting. They survive because of the loot, the stats, the RPG, the grind. And the color, the characters, the locations, etc. And I agree, those things are cool and kept me playing for several hours myself. But it was more like work that I put in to finally get a gun that didn't feel like poo poo, it wasn't enjoyable FPS action. The shooting and the enemies are all extremely horribly designed. The guns all feel like crap and mostly just tickle your enemies since they couldn't be arsed to come up with proper AI and just made every enemy into a bullet sponge instead. TVHM is just stupid. I'm glad I never bothered with UVHM because I'm sure it'd be even dumber. The shooting in wolfenstein3d is more satisfying than in Borderlands 2, much less Doom or Quake. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 16:26
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I have an odd relationship with Borderlands 2. I completely and totally get why people have problems with it, but it feels incredibly nostalgic for me. When I was little, my friends and I would get a bunch of toy guns, all different shapes and sizes (and some weren't even guns, but in "ImaginationLand"(TM), they were), and we'd go on these Contra-like campaigns throughout my backyard and the surrounding areas. There's be a bit of MegaMan put in there too, meaning that if we killed some huge metal beast, we'd probably get a power-up based on it that we could use. I play Borderlands (BL2, specifically) kind of like a game version of playing that. Just playing online with one other friend, going through the campaign, brings me back to this. Obviously, when I was little, there was no concept of grinding or anything like that, we just ran around, shot stuff we pretended were crazy enemies, and made our guns better. 
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Sep 8, 2015 16:38
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:My uncle used a keyboard for moving and flight joystick for aiming back in his Quake days. He was way ahead of his time. I played Unreal using a Microsoft Sidewinder for moving (holding it with my left hand), using the trigger on the back for crouching and the select/start for next item and use item. Mouse1 fire, mouse 2 alt fire, mousewheel up for next weapon and mousewheel down for jumping. I still own that gamepad (from 1999) and works perfectly with all emulators and actually has great d-pad for fighting games, having 6 buttons at the face plus the triggers on the grips made up for an amazing pad for almost everything. Quick pic: 
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Sep 8, 2015 16:53
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Guillermus posted:I played Unreal using a Microsoft Sidewinder for moving (holding it with my left hand), using the trigger on the back for crouching and the select/start for next item and use item. Mouse1 fire, mouse 2 alt fire, mousewheel up for next weapon and mousewheel down for jumping.  Microsoft Sidewinder user, that pad was loving awesome for all kinds of things, used it a ton for Jazz 2
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Sep 8, 2015 16:58
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What I like is that microsoft didn't forget their old rear end hardware and you can plug it on a pc with windows 10 (like mine) and work perfectly with everything that isn't asking directly for a xbox controller.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:02
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Guillermus posted:What I like is that microsoft didn't forget their old rear end hardware and you can plug it on a pc with windows 10 (like mine) and work perfectly with everything that isn't asking directly for a xbox controller.  Take that apple snobs, I guess, maybe, I don't know?
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Sep 8, 2015 17:18
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Guillermus posted:What I like is that microsoft didn't forget their old rear end hardware and you can plug it on a pc with windows 10 (like mine) and work perfectly with everything that isn't asking directly for a xbox controller. Programs written for Windows 1.0 still work on 32-bit copies of Windows 10 (64-bit Windows doesn't support 16-bit applications so way-old programs are out). Though, gameport devices won't work after XP...
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Sep 8, 2015 17:21
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Segmentation Fault posted:Programs written for Windows 1.0 still work on 32-bit copies of Windows 10 (64-bit Windows doesn't support 16-bit applications so way-old programs are out). Though, gameport devices won't work after XP... My sidewinder is the Sidewinder Gamepad Pro (USB) from 1999 wich makes it usable even on android devices because you know, it owns 
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Sep 8, 2015 17:46
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I have an early microsoft controller that has actual motion controls, I remember playing some dirtbike game on PC in like 2001 using motion controls and even then thinking it was a pointless gimmick.Rupert Buttermilk posted:I have an odd relationship with Borderlands 2. I completely and totally get why people have problems with it, but it feels incredibly nostalgic for me. When I was little, my friends and I would get a bunch of toy guns, all different shapes and sizes (and some weren't even guns, but in "ImaginationLand"(TM), they were), and we'd go on these Contra-like campaigns throughout my backyard and the surrounding areas. There's be a bit of MegaMan put in there too, meaning that if we killed some huge metal beast, we'd probably get a power-up based on it that we could use. I play Borderlands (BL2, specifically) kind of like a game version of playing that. Just playing online with one other friend, going through the campaign, brings me back to this. I'd rather play through quake co-op with a buddy and feel like you get a real powerup each time you find a new gun and enjoy the shootiness compared to BL2 where the shooting is really frustrating and slow and boring and then you get an upgrade that isn't really any better than the gun you're already using  Also straight up the drop chance for the rarest guns in BL2 is 1/20000, gently caress that bullshit. Borderlands 2 is like Diablo 3 at launch, where the drop rate was really slow and everything was broken. Except Blizz actually fixed Diablo 3 over the last couple years to be way more fun and better balanced. Gearbox just pumped out paid DLC after paid DLC while ignoring the broken nature of Borderlands and then moved on to other games.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:54
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Zaphod42 posted:This is a little late but holy poo poo, no. Borderlands has some of the dumbest enemy design and worst shooting mechanics of any FPS I've ever played. The problems with the game's enemy design are almost all down to the bullet-sponge and scaling problems, and I think this is in large part due to its grindy, RPG-lite mechanics. Its constantly trying to push players to pick up better weapons and items and to do that it increases the threat in the worst way possible, by just increasing enemy health and damage. Personally I found the real problems with the game is that the weapons don't match the ever more powerful enemies very well, the scaling is really out of whack. This is why the spongeiness gets terrible, and why you should never play on the New Game plus modes, they're just horribly balanced, if you want to replay the game just start a new character. But still, if that wasn't a concern, I would still have to say that in terms of pure enemy design and variety the game can be novel and interesting, but it gets ruined by the leveling problems. Also it doesn't help that actually awesome weapons never loving drop. I found it acceptable enough when I didn't touch TVHM or UVHM.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:58
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Zaphod42 posted:Gearbox just pumped out paid DLC after paid DLC while ignoring the broken nature of Borderlands and then moved on to other games. They farmed a couple of them out to the Duke Nukem Forever team.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:58
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I had some type of flight joystick for the old family PC, and in my confused kid brain it made sense to use that for all games including FPSes. I'm trying to remember what I actually did with my left hand. I think it just rested on the strafe and run keys most of the time? I didn't really use keys for movement until Dark Forces. I recall using the arrow keys, and mapping 1 and 0 on the number pad to jump and crouch respectively, and feeling like a genius.
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Sep 8, 2015 18:10
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Also, hey TerminusEst13, I'm playing Demonsteele (with Doom 1) and just noticed the auto-turret thingy that's flying above me. Where the hell did I pick that up? I've literally never experienced it before; I was really confused why guys were getting shot as soon as I saw them, before I started firing at them myself. I checked here briefly, but didn't see anything about it.  That would be this little dumbass, yeah. He replaces the lightvisor and the allmap, and acts as fire support. Doesn't do a whole lot of damage, but he locks things in place for you to gun down.
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Sep 8, 2015 19:33
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Woolie Wool posted:Even Quake had (lovely) autoaim. It was Quake II when they finally stopped coddling keyboarders and forced them to use the mouse--you could try to play the game using the look up/down keyboard controls but I doubt you'd get very far. I can attest to a full play through of Quake 2 using only the keyboard. In fact, I seem to remember the only point at which I had to adjust the aim was to shoot a secret wall target shortly before the room with a tower surrounded by a ring of lava and the super shotgun. I also really like Quake 2 which makes 98% of this I am the To this day, I have not yet played Doom 2.
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Sep 8, 2015 20:11
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what kind of loser needs normal maps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6UviHCc7mM
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Sep 8, 2015 20:54
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BowvffJX68 Kins thank you for using the TJ Combo theme for this.
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Sep 8, 2015 21:19
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khwarezm posted:The problems with the game's enemy design are almost all down to the bullet-sponge and scaling problems, and I think this is in large part due to its grindy, RPG-lite mechanics. Its constantly trying to push players to pick up better weapons and items and to do that it increases the threat in the worst way possible, by just increasing enemy health and damage. Personally I found the real problems with the game is that the weapons don't match the ever more powerful enemies very well, the scaling is really out of whack. This is why the spongeiness gets terrible, and why you should never play on the New Game plus modes, they're just horribly balanced, if you want to replay the game just start a new character. The enemies themselves may have variety in their appearance, but they all just stand there and shoot at you. None of them have any variety in their tactics really, and when it comes to FPS that's what really matters. Does seeing a red colored dude with more HP than the blue colored dudes you were shooting earlier do anything for you? Like, look at quake's enemies. There's no waste there. Each enemy behaves COMPLETELY different. The fact that they look different is second to the fact that one of them flies, one of them jumps, one of them crawls, one of them... shambles.... you know what I mean. Like you said, the tactics of borderlands consist purely of "they have lots of HP and you have to whittle it down without getting hit too much" Its like if you had a Doom WAD where the ONLY enemies were ALL CYBERDEMONS. It would be the most un-fun bullshit imaginable. Mooks that die in one shot feel good. You as the hero have way more satisfaction dodging bullets to blap a thousand imps and marines than you do killing one cyberdemon that took you 10 minutes of dodging around a pillar while you fire rockets up his rear end. Big bosses are cool once in awhile to break the flow, but in general FPS games are about killing lots of dudes fast, not killing big dudes slow. I feel like this is a golden rule that gets largely ignored. Its something in Destiny's game design (not a classic FPS but it matters to the discussion) that they're slowly learning. The original Destiny was all big bulletsponge bosses that you'd have to unload on for loving 15 minutes without any real tactics, just hide behind cover, regen health, fire bullets, hide behind cover, regen health, fire bullets, over and over until he dies. BORING. Way more fun is you do something like make the boss leave the room for awhile and you have to clear all the little baddies and then he comes back. Or you give him an invincibility shield and make it so you have to kill the little baddies so the shield goes away. Borderlands did on rare occasions come up with things like that, there was one raid boss that was invincible and you had to kill bad guys to create acid pools where they died to drag the boss through. That's a neat challenge, although can be tricky. But that's just one boss, and almost all the rest of them were just "its got a gently caress ton of HP, don't die and keep shooting" and that's it  I think that's actually part of what makes doom so good, that so many FPS games don't get right anymore. You need to run fast, yeah, but you also need to be killing huge hordes of enemies left and right. Its satisfying, it gives you constant feedback. Yes, doom is fast, but its not just the player movement that's fast, its the killing of enemies that's fast too. Challenge that comes from quantity of enemies is more enjoyable than challenge that comes from one or two enemies with a huge quantity of hit points. There's a lot more tactically that can happen in big groups than with one big toughguy too. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 22:00
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