|
Intel&Sebastian posted:Why were the XOF soldiers and the man on fire/kid mantis fighting eachother in the intro scene? Arent they on the same side? Got recruited after the fact I think, so why does Skullface wear a mask? is there ever a reason given? edit: Also before I forget again, during the hospital scene the one crowded hallway has you focus on Ishmael's crack but then he gets gunned down, then pulls you from the hallway somehow, what's up with that? Ekusukariba fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Sep 9, 2015 |
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 18:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 22:54 |
|
|
Ekusukariba posted:Got recruited after the fact I think, so why does Skullface wear a mask? is there ever a reason given? Thematic. It's a Zorro mask which is spanish for 'Fox'. And he wears it backwards! (Not really).
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 18:40
|
|
|
Ekusukariba posted:Got recruited after the fact I think, so why does Skullface wear a mask? is there ever a reason given? Thats his face, he got burned as a child or something. And I'm pretty sure the tapes say kid mantis was with skullface a while ago because tbats how he got Volgin walking again. Skullface not being there and kid mantis latching onto snake/venoms hate sounds plausible, but then why would skullface send kid mantis without knowing who's going to control him? I'd say maybe Quiet was supposed to proxy hate on snake but she wasnt even that pissed at him until the whole set her on fire thing. Edit: oh lol his little masquerade ball mask, my bad
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 18:42
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:Thats his face, he got burned as a child or something. And I'm pretty sure the tapes say kid mantis was with skullface a while ago because tbats how he got Volgin walking again. Skull Face may not have understood how Mantis worked back then, or didn't consider the whole Volgin stance. Or he wanted Big Boss to survive and sent Mantis to make sure? Because..
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 18:43
|
|
|
Ekusukariba posted:
After watching it again, it's a deliberate fakeout. Like Ahab zeroes in on that crack and thinks it's him, but when the shooting starts and the camera swings back to the gate if you look quickly you can see Ishmael already in the doorway peeking out at you EDIT: I think Skull Face has this heavy Lone Ranger vibe because of the cowboy getup, the shotty, his little mask and hat and the tinstar he wears under his coat. He supposed to be a western sheriff or something for reasons. Kinda surprised you don't see him on a horse more often, if at all. DOUBLE EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSuyQxJ-ij8 Yeah, if you pause the video at exactly 25:07 you can see Ishmael in the doorway. Right when he first gets to the doorway is when the camera cuts away to show Ahab closing the gate. Final Edit: My question is, if Paz is really just a hallucination, why are Kaz and Ocelot talking to you about how she has trauma and still thinks she's living in the Peace Walker era. Are they just playing along with Venom's hallucination? Are THEY hallucinations? Tamayachi fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Sep 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 18:46
|
|
|
Never leave me, Quiet
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 19:37
|
|
|
Tamayachi posted:Final Edit: My question is, if Paz is really just a hallucination, why are Kaz and Ocelot talking to you about how she has trauma and still thinks she's living in the Peace Walker era. Are they just playing along with Venom's hallucination? Are THEY hallucinations? You should get all of the photos.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 19:40
|
|
|
There is also a tape about Sahelanthropus' armor being made out of depleted uranium which the archaea can rapidly consume to create highly enriched weaponized uranium. They mention that depleted uranium is probably a bad choice for armor because it is much softer and heavier than the alternatives. So basically Sahelanthropus is a huge, over-engineered, relatively fragile piece of poo poo. It's more complicated / impressive-looking than REX, but REX is a better weapon in pretty much every way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 19:42
|
|
|
randombattle posted:You should get all of the photos. It's a cheap narrative dodge to make you think she's not imaginary (since the evidence is overwhelming that she really did explode from the very first scene of the game) by having Ocelot and Kaz go "no no she's totally alive" because until that point whenever we see Ocelot and Kaz they're actually present. And then suddenly "oh no, every time Venom walked through that door he fell asleep on a ledge and just happened to dream all of that, or was awake and hallucinated Ocelot when that never happens otherwise."
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 19:49
|
|
|
Grizzled Patriarch posted:There is also a tape about Sahelanthropus' armor being made out of depleted uranium which the archaea can rapidly consume to create highly enriched weaponized uranium. They mention that depleted uranium is probably a bad choice for armor because it is much softer and heavier than the alternatives. So basically Sahelanthropus is a huge, over-engineered, relatively fragile piece of poo poo. It's more complicated / impressive-looking than REX, but REX is a better weapon in pretty much every way. I suppose the idea could be that even if you defeat it, it could just go nuclear and wipe out the force and nearby area?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 19:50
|
|
|
Nakar posted:He did, that's why he's wondering about that. The entire room was a hallucination, as was Paz (and the butterfly), but there are multiple scenes where Ocelot and Kaz walk in and start talking about it. Obviously these must have been hallucinations themselves, but that makes no loving sense because Venom never hallucinates Kaz and Ocelot any other time, and there's no logical reason to hallucinate Ocelot of all people because Ocelot wasn't with MSF. It does make sense. The entire thing is a guilt hallucination that Venom is having to justify to himself how Paz could have survived. Every single bit of it is him (as the medic) trying to make up justifications for how he wasn't really responsible for her death by missing the extra bomb. The entire room is a guilt hallucination. Everything that happens in it is a hallucination. The photos are never hung up on the wall, nobody else goes in there, everything he sees there is fake including Miller and Ocelot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 19:51
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:It does make sense. The entire thing is a guilt hallucination that Venom is having to justify to himself how Paz could have survived. Every single bit of it is him (as the medic) trying to make up justifications for how he wasn't really responsible for her death by missing the extra bomb. Every time you give Paz a photo she drops it and it disappears. Not to mention that if you look at the building you'd see there's no where for Paz's room to be because there's no room or windows on the outside. You can even see the same peace sign on the wall if you're looking for it. I thought it was pretty clear that everything about the room was a hallucination including miller and ocelot just showing up out of nowhere.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 19:56
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:It does make sense. The entire thing is a guilt hallucination that Venom is having to justify to himself how Paz could have survived. Every single bit of it is him (as the medic) trying to make up justifications for how he wasn't really responsible for her death by missing the extra bomb. Ocelot walking in twice and explaining the whole thing is not. Either Venom hallucinates Ocelot's presence in this scene and only this scene, or he was actually dreaming. In the former case, it's cheating because at no point has he ever hallucinated Ocelot up to this point and it doesn't make sense for Ocelot to even be there or care about Paz at all; Ocelot adds false authority to the notion that Paz really survived in the eyes of the player, who might have doubted it if only Venom ever saw her or if the sole person to show up was Kaz (and even then, I think it's a cheat, as Kaz is never otherwise hallucinated). If it's a dream as the final cutscene implies, then when did Venom fall asleep? It screws with the player's perception of gameplay because we walk up to a door and press a button and now we're being asked to believe Venom walked out onto a ledge and passed out or fell asleep. It doesn't make any sense. It's fine for Venom to invent a justification for her implausible and untrue survival. It's not OK for the narrative to deceive you in a certain particular way. "Paz is clearly dead so her being here with a still-healing scar 9 years later is obviously fake and this room is either empty or nonexistent" is a deception that is obvious to the player. Dead Skull Face popping up and disappearing during a cutscene is a deception that is obvious because he's now a phantom. A character who in all other circumstances is a real, flesh-and-blood person, with no direct relevance or history to Venom, showing up and speaking authoritatively is an attempt to deliberately mislead the player in one specific instance where they knew the first thing the player would think is "this isn't real." It's not enough to say "Yeah well he'd trust Ocelot's authority as a neutral party that's why he hallucinated him!" because at no other point has he ever hallucinated Ocelot or suggested that he would. Venom doesn't just randomly do that. I'd have been OK with it had he like found a document or a tape, but "Ocelot literally walks into the room, except not really" is bullshit if it never happens anywhere else.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 19:59
|
|
|
Nakar posted:If it's a dream as the final cutscene implies, then when did Venom fall asleep? The shrapnel in his brain triggers hallucinations. As for why it is Ocelot it is because his brain is trying to justify it (and from a meta-perspective the player needs it justified too.) Ocelot is, hilariously, the most trustworthy voice of reason that Venom Snake has so that is why Ocelot is the one showing up when he is trying to fool himself. Nakar posted:It's not enough to say "Yeah well he'd trust Ocelot's authority as a neutral party that's why he hallucinated him!" because at no other point has he ever hallucinated Ocelot or suggested that he would. V Why isn't it? There are plenty of indications that it is fake. The entire point is that he is trying to fool himself. Since Venom is the player why wouldn't he try to fool the actual-player too? Venom Snake is explicitly and unmistakably supposed to be the player. You're asked for your name, your birthdate and to create how you look and in the final scene they reveal that Venom's name is your name, his birthday is your birthday and he looks like you. When the game lies to you (as it also does in the opening with Venom's face), it is explicitly Venom lying to himself. The entire game is you, the player, being aware that you're probably not Big Boss but also trying to live up to the legend of Big Boss and act as you'd expect Big Boss would. Despite not being Big Boss by the end you've defined his legend and effectively 'become' Big Boss. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Sep 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:02
|
|
|
Nakar posted:It makes sense only thematically, as an actual sequence of events it's intentionally misleading. I'm not complaining about the concept, I'm saying the execution cheated. Medic's trying to justify Paz surviving, OK, fine. The false reimagining of the scene is good, Paz revealing he never did find the second one is good, realizing it never happened is good, the room not existing is good, the mindfuck tape is good. what in the gently caress are you talking about bud
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:02
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The shrapnel in his brain triggers hallucinations. Basically you're just accepting that "the shrapnel can induce hallucinations, therefore the director can put in anything he wants and it's fine." The hallucinations have to have some kind of consistency to them or they're as magical a directorial technique as Mantis is a magical plot manipulator. Everything about the Paz sequence meshes with how Venom's situation works except imagining real living people showing up and telling him things. If they wanted to make that point plausible, it should've happened somewhere else. It's trivially easy to fool the player if you can just make up rules whenever you want, but that doesn't make it good writing or good direction, which is what I'm saying. Again, I'm not saying it's dumb or implausible on the whole, I'm saying it cheats to try to divert your attention from something that is obviously the case. "But it's trying to deceive you!" is not an excuse if it has to break rules and cheat to do it, and it has to cheat because everyone's first assumption is "there's no way this can be true" because it isn't true. I'm criticizing the direction, not the idea, I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about this.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:09
|
|
|
Nakar posted:That's not an excuse to just break all rules of narrative convention when it's convenient. There are lots of clues to the player that the Paz thing is exactly what it appears to be and it is. Then they cheat by having Venom hallucinate in a very specific way he otherwise never does. Venom Snake hallucinates the doctor telling him that he was Big Boss. This is one of the first things in the game. Nakar posted:Everything about the Paz sequence meshes with how Venom's situation works except imagining real living people showing up and telling him things. How does that not make sense? Why would he not hallucinate a real person? You're basically arguing that it's cheating because you say it is cheating. Nakar posted:. I'm criticizing the direction, not the idea, I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about this. Because you're claiming it is breaking a rule when it isn't breaking a rule. There is no writing rule that says a hallucination can't be a living person. Even when Ocelot tells you that the response from the player is "That can't be true... can it?" Which is the exact response the character is supposed to have. I mean, yes, it cheats. It shows you things that didn't happen. The entire point is that it is supposed to be cheating and showing something that didn't happen and which is so blatantly contradictory. The game lies to you because the character is lying to themselves. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Sep 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:11
|
|
|
you can only hallucinate things that make sense in the way that i feel is correct.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:14
|
|
|
Using hallucinations in media is a very difficult element to pull off without making going down the road of "Was ANYTHING real?" I think Kojima was wrong to include Kaz/Ocelot in any of those interactions with Paz, as they step from confirmed reality into the unreal. Ishmael during the intro is a fantastic use of "Are they real?" because there is no distinct answer - we do not know who they are. But we know Ocelot and Kaz are real. Why didn't Venom ever bring it up with them outside of the room? Did he know it was fake, but the player didn't? The concept is good but the execution is flawed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:16
|
|
|
It was gross when paz pulled out her own guts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
If he can hallucinate a living person showing up when they're not even present why does that not happen elsewhere to establish it? It pulls the idea out of its rear end for one specific scene. In all other instances his memories are sorta-true but fragmentary, out of order, or jumbled. In this case he just flat invents a meeting that doesn't happen.ImpAtom posted:How does that not make sense? Why would he not hallucinate a real person? You're basically arguing that it's cheating because you say it is cheating. The false flashback is alright, because Venom has flashbacks about real events that don't quite play out the way he remembers them. It happens other places. Paz as a hallucination is alright, because Venom hallucinates dead people. Skull Face shows up as one, and you can't get to the end of the Paz sequence until after Skull Face dies and you see the Chapter 1 end cutscene. If Venom had at any point asked Ocelot about some scene and Ocelot went "Eh? What do you mean, Boss?" then they'd have justified that sometimes Venom talks to Kaz/Ocelot when they're not really around, and he can't always distinguish whether he's getting advice from his right hand men or the advice he imagines they'd give. They never do this, every other appearance of Kaz/Ocelot is real. iGestalt posted:Using hallucinations in media is a very difficult element to pull off without making going down the road of "Was ANYTHING real?" I think Kojima was wrong to include Kaz/Ocelot in any of those interactions with Paz, as they step from confirmed reality into the unreal. Ishmael during the intro is a fantastic use of "Are they real?" because there is no distinct answer - we do not know who they are.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:19
|
|
|
Ocelot needed to be there or else the already obvious twist would be even more obvious, since it'd just be a room where Paz is randomly in without any context given
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:25
|
|
|
Nakar posted:If he can hallucinate a living person showing up when they're not even present why does that not happen elsewhere to establish it? It pulls the idea out of its rear end for one specific scene. In all other instances his memories are sorta-true but fragmentary, out of order, or jumbled. In this case he just flat invents a meeting that doesn't happen. Why does it matter if they're living or dead? Venom isn't channeling spirits. The entire point of it is that it is a fake scene made up by Venom to justify a completely implausible survival. It doesn't matter if the character involved or alive or dead because it isn't Snake summoning spirits or talking with a literal ghost. Even Paz's final tape points out that it isn't Paz talking, it is the fake Paz in Venom's brain saying the things he wants to hear. Even single thing in that room is Venom seeing and hearing things he wants to hear. Yes, it lies to the player because the player is trying to fool himself. You're arguing that is cheating but it isn't. The only way to fool a semi-omniscient player is to feed them a believable lie and so for Snake to lie to himself (both literally and metaphorically) there has to be something that fools not only the player-character but the player. Your argument is that it should have been more blatant and obvious which would be far worse direction. The twist is already obvious and pretty blatantly expected. The twist isn't that Paz was ~dead all along~ which the player is clearly supposed to expect. (Much as they're supposed to expect they're not Big Boss.) It is that the player (theoretically) hopes that Paz is alive. It would have been utterly meaningless if the player had no doubt at all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:25
|
|
|
Kojima should have saved money by have Keifer voice Big Boss and Hayter do Venom as a keifer impression style Snake.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:26
|
|
iGestalt posted:Using hallucinations in media is a very difficult element to pull off without making going down the road of "Was ANYTHING real?" I think Kojima was wrong to include Kaz/Ocelot in any of those interactions with Paz, as they step from confirmed reality into the unreal. Ishmael during the intro is a fantastic use of "Are they real?" because there is no distinct answer - we do not know who they are. I agree with this- although I think the scenes are generally well-handled (as well-handled as Paz really can be), the direct inclusion of the two, and their abuse for the purpose of "confirming" Paz's existence, doesn't make much sense. Do you folks think just having them talk to you by idroid would work? How should the director get player buy-in on Paz without abusing the established expectations of the player regarding what is real? I'm wondering if more extensive hallucinations had originally been planned that would make the use of Ocelot/Kaz more acceptable, but which then got cut. vvvv Good idea. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Sep 9, 2015 |
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:26
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I agree with this- although I think the scenes are generally well-handled (as well-handled as Paz really can be), the direct inclusion of the two, and their abuse for the purpose of "confirming" Paz's existence, doesn't make much sense. Do you folks think just having them talk to you by idroid would work? How should the director get player buy-in on Paz without abusing the established expectations of the player regarding what is real? Either a nameless mook, a chart or the Medic himself explaining it would've worked better. Personally, I prefer the idea of it being the ideal version of the Medic (Using the character you created at the start would've been an interesting choice but could've given it away too easily).
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:29
|
|
|
iGestalt posted:Either a nameless mook, a chart or the Medic himself explaining it would've worked better. Personally, I prefer the idea of it being the ideal version of the Medic (Using the character you created at the start would've been an interesting choice but could've given it away too easily). Why it less of a cheat to hallucinate a living character in that case? It also doesn't work because that has no impact on the player. At best they'd be confused why the guy they picked is explaining things. It seems like what people want is for them, the player, to have no doubt at all. Which defeats the entire point of that scene and makes it kind of worthless. Not to mention that the entire game is a lie to the player. Ocelot spends the entire game lying to you, even if he isn't aware of it. (Also a major theme of the game is people lying to fool themselves.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Sep 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:32
|
|
|
Still weird that none of the tapes even comment on the fact the medic and Big Boss just happen to have the exact same voice. Really would've made more sense to have medic voiced by someone else, then mention changing vocal cords in surgery somehow. Also why does Big Boss not have his hair and beard and face under those bandages as Ishmael? Is he wearing a Mission Impossible style mask under his The Mummy Returns costume?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:34
|
|
|
If i finished the truth version of Man Who Sold the World, and Eli already took off with Sehan, am i set up to watch the mission 51 show?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:35
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Why it less of a cheat to hallucinate a living character in that case? I don't think it's a cheat to use a living character - I just think it'd work better thematically. Plus, it causes less issues in the plot. Admittedly it's a non-issue, but Venom bringing it up with Kaz/Ocelot would've resulted in the entire thing falling down. Using a dead, or nameless character can avoid that issue to an extent. It'd still entirely fall down if Venom actually spoke to people about it. But if they were to use his own projected ideal, it could be more self contained. His own internal desire to have stopped it from happening projecting to say "Hey, no, you did good buddy" To the bit you edited in: Yeah, I agree with you, having them there allows it to have more impact and the Medic wouldn't really work out. I don't know, I just think it could've been better executed than it was as it's a cool concept.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:36
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:If i finished the truth version of Man Who Sold the World, and Eli already took off with Sehan, am i set up to watch the mission 51 show? Yeah, and this is recommended after the truth version https://a.pomf.cat/abcyrl.mp4
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:37
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:If i finished the truth version of Man Who Sold the World, and Eli already took off with Sehan, am i set up to watch the mission 51 show? It doesn't reference the twist at all. I suspect it was meant to come before it because the narrative of 51 is actually weaker for the twist.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:38
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:If i finished the truth version of Man Who Sold the World, and Eli already took off with Sehan, am i set up to watch the mission 51 show? You can watch it before that. Mission 51 is not the final mission despite what people are claiming. It resolves the Eli plot but that is about it. It's on-par with the end of Quiet's plot or Huey's plot. It's probably called Mission 51 because it is a missing mission, not because that is where it would have come chronologically. (especially since the last mission is just a boss refight on Extreme.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:38
|
|
|
Deep down, Venom knows that Paz is dead, and that's why he doesn't mention it to Miller or Ocelot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:39
|
|
|
Finally got Battle Dress, and holy hell, going loud is so much more fun than stealth. Especially dropping smoke all over the place and just walking around as a juggernaut with a shotgun.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:39
|
|
|
Funky Valentine posted:Deep down, Venom knows that Paz is dead, and that's why he doesn't mention it to Miller or Ocelot. That's a very good point. Speaking of good points, Kojima is really, really good at picking music for the games. The Man Who Sold The World's lyrics are very resonant with the plot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:40
|
|
|
iGestalt posted:That's a very good point. As are the description in the lyrics of the Diamond Dogs. "The Diamond Dogs are poachers and they hide behind trees Hunt you to the ground they will, mannequins with kill appeal" "Come out of the garden, baby You'll catch your death in the fog Young girl, they call them the Diamond Dogs"
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:44
|
|
|
Hijo Del Helmsley posted:As are the description in the lyrics of the Diamond Dogs. Haha, totally. I wonder if Kojima's writing style is simply finding a song he really, really digs and adapting it to the game?
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:You can watch it before that. It resolves the arcs of the remaining two major villains, the giant stompy doomsday robot, and the silly doomsday language parasites, and also ties off a number of statements about the cyclical and futile nature of revenge and Venom's acceptance of his new nature. It's an ending.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 22:54 |
|
|
iGestalt posted:Haha, totally. I wonder if Kojima's writing style is simply finding a song he really, really digs and adapting it to the game? He just really, really, really likes David Bowie. I'm surprised no character thus far has been referred to as The Thin White Duke.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 20:48
|
|