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Silver Nitrate posted:How does Buddhism feel about pets? Carnivorous ones specifically?
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Sep 3, 2015 07:23
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Tashi Delek, So are there any recommendations on how to familiarize oneself with Tibetan. I am getting a bit lost in the chants, partially because the pronunciation is foreign to me. What I mean is that there is not an exact English equivalent so I am stuck trying to figure out how to pronounce 'Gyi'. I know it will get better with repetition, but I enjoy studying languages. There seems to be some resources online, and books/recordings on Amazon, but I am wondering if anyone has any advice? And no offense to folks in the thread, but by 'anyone' I mean Parametric. I keep looking for a thread in SAL and would love to hear how you spent your summer vacation.
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Sep 6, 2015 04:29
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SubjectVerbObject posted:Tashi Delek, Haha, thanks man. I didn't ever end up making the thread, because I thought "surely there wouldn't be anyone else who actually cares about Tibetan," but I definitely will given that there is some interest. In the meantime, I'll see if I can find something good online for how those things are pronounced. Unfortunately, Tibetan phonetic pronunciations are generally done to be as approximate as possible, because not only do the sounds not exactly map, but the spelling is also a clown spelling for goof languages. This means that, for example "gyi" in phonetics for pronunciation could be any number of different particles that would all be pronounced like that, and some of those particles might be closer to KYI, GYI, etc. The other problem is that Tibet is a huge region and there are a lot of dialects. You're well served to learn Lhasa pronunciation, as that is the "prestige" dialect in Tibetan, and mostly understood elsewhere, but for example some dialects will soften the GYI syllable to make an affricate sometimes, where others do not. And some guys would write "gyi" when it's really pronounced "kyi" because of training in Wylie (where it might be spelled "kyis." for example. I'll make a thread tomorrow or the day after, and if I don't please PM me until I do, if you have PMs, or just bump this thread just like so, because that obviously works too. In the meantime, if you send me which set of chants you're using, I can look at it and see if I can clarify some particulars. Part of what sent me down this road I'm on now is that, like you, I couldn't stand chanting things with the pronunciations merely being "close enough." If I'm gonna say it, I want to at least try to say it right, haha. If you're a language person, do you "speak" linguistics? If so I can use what little linguistic terminology I remember to try to clear things up with some of them. The summer program was very good, incidentally, and I left it speaking Tibetan fairly well. Starting sometime next week I'll be doing continuation lessons with another teacher who was recommended to me in India by a friend, which should help me move towards the vocabulary competency and use of obscure structures I need to get into Dharma interpretation. I also need of course a lot more practice listening to Tibetan. I am at a point where I can catch most of what is being said, but sometimes I need it repeated. Embarrassingly, when I came back and saw my Lama, the first thing he said to me was "when did you get back," but because his dialect drops or heavily softens "ng" stops, I couldn't figure out what the verb in the question was (YONG, but pronounced YO). So when he asked me if I learned anything I had to answer "well, nothing, apparently." So that's just one example of how the dialects differ.
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Sep 6, 2015 04:46
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So the current frustration is Green Tara. I ended up being lost in the 21 praises, which were being chanted by 2 native speakers with slightly different accents, plus two westerners who could keep up but weren't exact either. I was trying to work within the Puja, while figuring out the pronunciation, and it just got faster and faster. It really isn't a problem, as this group is welcoming of all levels, but I would like to get more proficient. I am trying to use youtube to get my ear familiar with it, that that has had its own problems, since there are different dialects. Is the Lhasa dialect what some would call the Central dialect? Would that be common to Tibetans living in India as well? Is there a book or site that you would recommend. I am trying to tread wisely, partly because my time is limited, and partly because I have seen some helpful resources that turned out to be NKT.
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Sep 6, 2015 18:39
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SubjectVerbObject posted:So the current frustration is Green Tara. I ended up being lost in the 21 praises, which were being chanted by 2 native speakers with slightly different accents, plus two westerners who could keep up but weren't exact either. I was trying to work within the Puja, while figuring out the pronunciation, and it just got faster and faster. It really isn't a problem, as this group is welcoming of all levels, but I would like to get more proficient. Today a 70 year old member of our Sangha for over 15 years asked me to clarify the correct pronunciation of the word "kyap" (refuge) in the Refuge prayer. This is not a language to worry about mispronouncing now and then because chances are in fact really, really good that if you're approximate to the sound it should be, some dialect somewhere says it that way. I have heard སྐྱབས་ pronounced "kyob" "kyap" "kyop" "chop" and "chyap" all by native speakers. When in doubt, one thing I have resorted to in the past when Tibetans are whipping through these things at a million miles an hour is just visualizing myself as saying whatever the lama is saying. quote:I am trying to use youtube to get my ear familiar with it, that that has had its own problems, since there are different dialects. Is the Lhasa dialect what some would call the Central dialect? Would that be common to Tibetans living in India as well? Is there a book or site that you would recommend. I am trying to tread wisely, partly because my time is limited, and partly because I have seen some helpful resources that turned out to be NKT. Lhasa dialect is the Ü in Ü-Tsang, which is the Central Tibetan Region. It is slightly different than the rest of Tsang, but nobody from outside Lhasa is going to "nail" it anyhow, as it does a lot of weird things to some words. For example, Lhasa in Tibetan is spelled ལྷ་ས་ which literally means "god-place." Typically in Tibetan this is pronounced "hla sa" but in Lhasa-speak it's pronounced "hlay sa" because they reduplicate the ས, instead saying ལྷས་ས་ . Typically, the suffix ས་ makes the preceding vowel into its front-rounded form, so Lhasa-people just kinda reduplicate it in pronunciation for no reason. I still need to check about some things I learned to see if they are Lhasa quirks or just how it is, but all Tibetans understand Lhasan, and regard it as a "more correct" pronunciation than their own, even though they have their own pronunciation, much like Castilian Spanish or Parisian French are "correct," but Mexican Spanish or Quebecois aren't wrong. For that reason, it's generally best if language learners learn Lhasa dialect pronunciation. My teacher's book is online entirely, but it's tough going without a teacher because he doesn't use any phonetics or Wylie, he just introduces the alphabet, pronunciation, then goes into it immediately. He also likes to bridge from the traditional Tibetan style of teaching, while making it more accessible for English speakers (Tibetans basically straight memorize everything, this is their style of learning). I can shoot you a link to that or will put it in the SAL thread when I make it (probably not tonight, as I only just got back from my center an hour or so ago). Do you use AIM or anything? Skype? I'd like to get into that text with you a bit but I need to see what text it is exactly, there are more than one Verses of Praise to the 21 Taras I believe. If you ended up at a Drikung center, I will probably have a copy at my own center, but it would be helpful to get some more info and you've been a bit reluctant to share in this thread (which is fair). My AIM is Paramemetic and I have no idea what my Skype is right now, probably also Paramemetic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGQq41Gv9XA Here is some very good Lhasa pronunciation introduction to the alphabet, but the way the alphabet interacts, this is just a foundation for what you'll need to make sense of anything's pronunciation. But she speaks very clearly and has good Typical Lhasa pronunciation. She also introduces the book she'll be using at the beginning, I will write up a translation for this or subtitle it if you'd like. The book introduction bit is good because even if it's incomprehensible it's a good example of how Tibetans speak formally. Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 01:41
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Hey Parametric, thanks for the info. Skype/AIM is gonna be hard right now due to time constraints. I am trying to get some things wrapped up because I have a 3 day retreat coming up this weekend. My longest so far. Should be interesting. The place I am at is Nyingma so I am thinking everything will have a slightly different flavor to it.
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Sep 9, 2015 15:55
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SubjectVerbObject posted:Hey Parametric, thanks for the info. Skype/AIM is gonna be hard right now due to time constraints. I am trying to get some things wrapped up because I have a 3 day retreat coming up this weekend. My longest so far. Should be interesting. The place I am at is Nyingma so I am thinking everything will have a slightly different flavor to it. No worries, sweet on the retreat! I've started making a thread for SAL but am trying to round up resources. Tibetans as a rule tend to be pretty relaxed about things like IP so I'm just trying to make sure I don't end up in :files: territory linking things, which is tough. I also will need to write a bunch of stuff about fonts and things as well. It's coming though. I started Tibetan classes with a new teacher in Nepal this morning, it's amazing how quickly you can lose mouth fluency, I need Rinpoche to come back to the States so I have someone to talk to regularly, haha. My fundamentals of grammar and vocabulary mostly remain solid though so that's good. Nyingmapa things will have some similarities and some differences. In today's world of Rime there is a lot of sharing. One of the strongest movements within the Drikung Kagyu is our Yangzab Treasure Teachings, which come from Drikung Rinchen Phuntsok, and bring the Dzogchen teachings into the Drikung Kagyu lineage. Generally, Kagyu is Mahamudra, and Dzogchen is a thing of Nyingmapas, but we share pretty heavily. Rime is a great movement, because for example the Drikung Naga practices had been lost, but one Drikung Rinpoche received those empowerments from the Sakyas and then was able to restore the Drikung Naga tradition. So there are some relations. And the core of the Dharma of course will be similar. I have passing familiarity with some Nyingma things, and it would be cool to learn about it. If the text you're working with is 21 Verses of Praise to Tara, (21 Praises of Tara, etc.) I should be able to get a Tibetan copy and help with any pronunciation things. Please consider putting an email address here so I have a place to send platinum ta~
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Sep 9, 2015 16:20
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Paramemetic, is this Sangha a part of your lineage?
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Sep 9, 2015 17:33
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Paramemetic, is this Sangha a part of your lineage? They are, they just very recently acquired a building after working towards that for a long time. They are one of Garchen Rinpoche's numerous centers. I haven't had the opportunity to visit their new building myself, but I know a few members of their Sangha and went down there recently when His Holiness Chetsang Rinpoche gave a series of empowerments and teachings. I don't know much about their current practices and so on because I don't know if they have a teacher in residence. believe this coming weekend they have a small retreat and teaching going on with Khenpo Choepel out of Pittsburgh, which should be very good. Edit: They also have a very strong Vietnamese component at that particular Sangha, which gives it a unique flavor.
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Sep 9, 2015 17:58
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Paramemetic posted:
Flavor in the expression of their practice and devotion, or more in the intellectual doctrinal way? I had ZERO idea that there were more than a few eccentric Vajrayana Vietnamese. Any idea on how they came to be associated with the Tibetan movement historically?
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Sep 10, 2015 10:39
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What are the chances that the relic buddha tooth is really from him?
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Sep 11, 2015 09:26
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Flavor in the expression of their practice and devotion, or more in the intellectual doctrinal way? I had ZERO idea that there were more than a few eccentric Vajrayana Vietnamese. Any idea on how they came to be associated with the Tibetan movement historically? More in the expression of devotion and so on. Doctrinally they're fully in line with the lineage, but they have that very strong devotion and that particular flavor of expressing it that is very Vietnamese. I don't actually know how they ended up part of this lineage historically, it's been a question I've been interested in hearing answered for a long time.
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Sep 11, 2015 12:14
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I'm a rough follower of Theravada Buddhism. Been on a number of retreats lead by Bhante Gunaratana out of West Virginia (and a number of Goenka retreats), and plan on some day ordaining as a monk in the Thai Forest Tradition under the teaching of Ajahn Chah. Hopefully in the Monastery in northern California. What's drawn me to Theravada is it doesn't have quite as much dogma attached to the teachings, and it's the original teachings. And it puts your own liberation above helping liberate all other beings before yourself, as the Bodhisattva vow requires. I subscribe to Buddhism to end suffering, and I'm in a better position to help others wake up if I'm awake. Just like Buddha himself. As a newer member to SA, it's awesome seeing other followers of Buddhism (even if you follow schools plagued with cultural dogma :P) prolapsed fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 06:30
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So back from retreat, but my back still hasn't recovered. Very good time but a lot of sitting. One thing I figured out is that a big part of my problem with some of the chanting is the fact that it is an oral tradition, and like any oral tradition, it has a melody and rhythm to aid it memorization. If you don't know what those are, stuff is harder to pronounce. I think I will be able to get it with some time, but I am still a newbie (and will probably be using that excuse for a long time).
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Sep 14, 2015 21:52
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prolapsed posted:As a newer member to SA, it's awesome seeing other followers of Buddhism (even if you follow schools plagued with cultural dogma :P) Would "Buddha himself" have said this? (I can't help myself.)
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Sep 14, 2015 21:59
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If you think thai buddhism is free from cultural dogma you are in for a surprise. I practice in the ajahn chah tradition as well. We are in a distinct minority in this forum and it is a good opportunity to learn about (and from) our pals in samsara.
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Sep 15, 2015 00:03
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Prickly Pete posted:If you think thai buddhism is free from cultural dogma you are in for a surprise. That's why I said, "not quite as much dogma." Especially relative to some of the Vajrayana or Mahayana schools like Tibetan. I was also being a bit sarcastic.
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Sep 15, 2015 01:26
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prolapsed posted:That's why I said, "not quite as much dogma." Especially relative to some of the Vajrayana or Mahayana schools like Tibetan. I was also being a bit sarcastic. I was just jealous that you got to go on retreat with Bhante G. That must be amazing.
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Sep 15, 2015 01:50
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prolapsed posted:That's why I said, "not quite as much dogma." Especially relative to some of the Vajrayana or Mahayana schools like Tibetan. I was also being a bit sarcastic. It's all good, thread resident Mahayanist and secret reincarnation of Sakya Pandita Quantumf8 keeps accusing me of being a Hindu polytheist and it's like welp, you know, as long as you're benefiting all sentient beings and following the Dharma, we're all brothers and sisters in the Dharma, even if we're prudes about it.  Really, though, I think I've mentioned before in this thread that we're very fortunate to have a diverse sectarian representation without any animosity. Incidentally, Rinpoche will soon be teaching a series of discussions on the Uttaratantra Shastra. We haven't decided on a translation to use, might use multiple and compare. It might be streamed over a dial-in conference call (our center is too remote to do any video streaming at the moment, but the possibility exists for the future hopefully). If so I'll provide the information here. Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Sep 15, 2015 |
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Sep 15, 2015 01:55
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Paramemetic posted:
That's for sure. If anyone remembers the days of E-Sangha, things usually tend to go downhill when a cross-traditional dialogue starts up involving anything but the bare basics. prolapsed posted:I'm a rough follower of Theravada Buddhism. Been on a number of retreats lead by Bhante Gunaratana out of West Virginia (and a number of Goenka retreats), and plan on some day ordaining as a monk in the Thai Forest Tradition under the teaching of Ajahn Chah. Hopefully in the Monastery in northern California. I'll hopefully get to travel to Abhayagiri as well sometime in the next year or so if things line up. Do you have a Thai Forest sangha where you currently live? I only know of a few in the states, one of which I am very lucky to live close to.
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Sep 15, 2015 06:21
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Prickly Pete posted:I'll hopefully get to travel to Abhayagiri as well sometime in the next year or so if things line up. Do you have a Thai Forest sangha where you currently live? I only know of a few in the states, one of which I am very lucky to live close to. Aside from its WA hermitage, Abhayagiri is the only monastery that I'm aware of in the US that follows Ajahn Chah's teachings. Maybe I remember hearing about one up in New Hampshire somewhere. I must admit that I haven't searched in a while though. I currently live in DC, so Bhante G.'s monastery is the closest option aside from the Vihara in DC. I've been contemplating quitting my job and moving back home to WA and taking some road trips down to Abhayagiri and getting to know the Sangha with the hope of residency and eventual ordination. The further through my 20's I get, the desire to robe up gets stronger and stronger. Getting to that point where I need to choose my own family or the robes. The latter would obviously be the road less traveled and get me a few steps further down the path. And I feel more drawn to it. Bhante G. is an amazing man. He was ill during the last Thanksgiving retreat I was on, but was still gleaming with compassion from ear to ear. We got snowed in on that retreat. It was absolutely perfect. https://www.dropbox.com/s/udcq4cdhhbfi9bi/IMG_1307.JPG?dl=0 I highly recommend his autobiography. It really highlights the level of political infighting in Thai Buddhism.
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Sep 15, 2015 07:43
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Paramemetic posted:It's all good, thread resident Mahayanist and secret reincarnation of Sakya Pandita Quantumf8 keeps accusing me of being a Hindu polytheist and it's like welp, you know, as long as you're benefiting all sentient beings and following the Dharma, we're all brothers and sisters in the Dharma, even if we're prudes about it. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
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Sep 15, 2015 07:48
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Is the West Virginia center you've mentioned the one near Capon Springs? Bhavana Society?
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Sep 15, 2015 12:48
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Paramemetic posted:Is the West Virginia center you've mentioned the one near Capon Springs? Bhavana Society? That's the one.
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Sep 15, 2015 16:39
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OK - whomever recommended the Coursera course on Tibetan Buddhism, thank you! It just started up, and I'm getting into watching the very informative lectures! Here's the link if anyone else wants to join in; the class just started up: https://www.coursera.org/learn/buddhist-meditation/home/welcome Also, anyone else use the Insight Timer meditation phone app? What are some of your favorite guided meditations on there? So far, the only one I listen to on a regular basis is the True North Sleep Meditation by Franko Heke, which works like an absolute charm. I want to check out his other meditations, as well as any recommendations you all have for a beginner like me. Thanks! (I also attend a Tibetan Buddhist monastery for meditation instruction, but I haven't had a chance to go since my new job started up.) Coursera also has another class starting now, on Buddhism and Modern Psychology. I signed up for that one as well, but I don't know how much time I'll have for it all, what with work and all. But others ma be interested! https://www.coursera.org/learn/science-of-meditation/home/welcome Qu Appelle fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 06:04
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Qu Appelle posted:Coursera also has another class starting now, on Buddhism and Modern Psychology. I signed up for that one as well, but I don't know how much time I'll have for it all, what with work and all. But others ma be interested! https://www.coursera.org/learn/science-of-meditation/home/welcome This one is really great, highly recommend.
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Sep 16, 2015 08:42
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Qu Appelle posted:
I use that same timer. Love it. I haven't used any of the guided meditations included but I have a few I like to use. I basically just find mp3s of similar-length sessions and start them at the same time as the timer. I really recommend Ajahn Jayasaro for guided meditation. Ajahn Amaro is good as well. You can find the files on various Forest Sangha sites. I think there is one specifically devoted to Dhamma talks but I'm on my phone so I don't have the link. Also, if you look on the Bhavana society website there are several guided meditations with Bhante Gunaratana himself (author of Mindfulness in plain English ), so those are obviously highly recommended.
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Sep 17, 2015 01:19
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Hi thread, I have a question about a meditation experience I had recently and I don't really have anyone I could ask so I thought I'd post it here. I've previously experienced odd visual effects like pulsing/brightening lights and the like, and have read to note these and return to the breath rather than getting distracted by them which I've managed to do reasonably consistently. This last experience seemed different, in that it wasn't visual but.. whole body? That doesn't quite capture it, whole-perception maybe. It sort of descended like a warm blanket over the senses. Sounds became distant like they were much further away, bodily sensations receded like the sensation-point of my entire body pulled inwards from my skin to an inch or two deeper inside. A general feeling of removed-ness but with no dulling/sleepiness or loss of attention on the breath. This happened in maybe the last less than a minute of a 30 minute session so I didn't get to experience it much before the timer went off. I ask because it seemed at least to be more of a qualitative change in perception than a weird sensory object. Is this something I should investigate/focus on or is it like the flashing lights and to be noted and let go of?
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Sep 25, 2015 08:59
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Ayn Randi posted:Hi thread, I have a question about a meditation experience I had recently and I don't really have anyone I could ask so I thought I'd post it here. I've previously experienced odd visual effects like pulsing/brightening lights and the like, and have read to note these and return to the breath rather than getting distracted by them which I've managed to do reasonably consistently. This last experience seemed different, in that it wasn't visual but.. whole body? That doesn't quite capture it, whole-perception maybe. It sort of descended like a warm blanket over the senses. Sounds became distant like they were much further away, bodily sensations receded like the sensation-point of my entire body pulled inwards from my skin to an inch or two deeper inside. A general feeling of removed-ness but with no dulling/sleepiness or loss of attention on the breath. This happened in maybe the last less than a minute of a 30 minute session so I didn't get to experience it much before the timer went off. I ask because it seemed at least to be more of a qualitative change in perception than a weird sensory object. Is this something I should investigate/focus on or is it like the flashing lights and to be noted and let go of? *E.g. it's not uncommon for people to lose the sensations of their hands when they meditate, they say "I can't feel my hands", but it's just the sense of touch shutting down due to being still. What you should do is just notice how pleasant it is and enjoy it. It's totally safe, nothing to worry about. If you just let it happen (i.e. just let your body fade away) eventually it will feel like your body has disappeared, but it's just the sense of touch has turned off because you're still. Enjoy having a break from your body, it will be there when you return :-) Edit: Another way to think about this is that, when the input from the sense of touch is starting to fade, perceptions about your body get a bit loosey goosey. I once felt like I was literally swinging back and forth like a pendulum on a clock, even though I knew this had to be impossible because I was sitting on the floor. Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 13:30
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Ayn Randi posted:Hi thread, I have a question about a meditation experience I had recently and I don't really have anyone I could ask so I thought I'd post it here. I've previously experienced odd visual effects like pulsing/brightening lights and the like, and have read to note these and return to the breath rather than getting distracted by them which I've managed to do reasonably consistently. This last experience seemed different, in that it wasn't visual but.. whole body? That doesn't quite capture it, whole-perception maybe. It sort of descended like a warm blanket over the senses. Sounds became distant like they were much further away, bodily sensations receded like the sensation-point of my entire body pulled inwards from my skin to an inch or two deeper inside. A general feeling of removed-ness but with no dulling/sleepiness or loss of attention on the breath. This happened in maybe the last less than a minute of a 30 minute session so I didn't get to experience it much before the timer went off. I ask because it seemed at least to be more of a qualitative change in perception than a weird sensory object. Is this something I should investigate/focus on or is it like the flashing lights and to be noted and let go of? Interesting. A few questions: how long have you been meditating, particularly sits of 30+ minutes. Also, was the sensation pleasant and peaceful? Or just unusual?
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Sep 25, 2015 15:45
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Rhymenoceros posted:That's (very probably) just your sense of touch* shutting down. This is supposed to happen; it's just what happens when you're physically still enough, like when a sound is constant, it fades into the background and then just disappears. The sound isn't gone it's just that sense input that doesn't change is just ignored by the brain after a while. It's a very slippery sloap telling people to enjoy certain sensations during meditation. It can be interpreted as a validation to grow attached to those sensations, which will hinder the practitioner. It's best to simply observe how your mind reacts to the pleasurable sensations.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:17
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prolapsed posted:It's a very slippery sloap telling people to enjoy certain sensations during meditation. It can be interpreted as a validation to grow attached to those sensations, which will hinder the practitioner. It's best to simply observe how your mind reacts to the pleasurable sensations. I think it is ok to enjoy a sensation within reason, as long as it is clearly understood that such sensations are not the goal of meditation. There are jhana factors that are very enjoyable and accepting them as such is reasonable, I'd think. But the idea that they are temporary and incidental is always worth mentioning.
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Sep 25, 2015 23:49
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prolapsed posted:It's a very slippery sloap telling people to enjoy certain sensations during meditation. It can be interpreted as a validation to grow attached to those sensations, which will hinder the practitioner. It's best to simply observe how your mind reacts to the pleasurable sensations.
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Sep 26, 2015 02:40
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Acknowledge and continue meditating. Enjoying something means you have lost your mind.
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Sep 26, 2015 03:12
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Prickly Pete posted:Interesting. A few questions: how long have you been meditating, particularly sits of 30+ minutes. Also, was the sensation pleasant and peaceful? Or just unusual? A couple of months of actual consistent practice now that I'm doing it almost every day instead of a casual when i feel like it session that I'd done on an off for a year or so previously. I've been doing 30 minute long sits for a a bit more than a month. Definitely pleasant and peaceful, 'still' is probably the word that comes to mind because my body felt stilled as well as my mind, like my sitting posture was suddenly much more stable and solid like being anchored. I haven't seen it come up again in the last few sits so I suppose I'll just carry on meditating, if it comes or doesn't that's fine 
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Sep 26, 2015 04:18
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Ayn Randi posted:A couple of months of actual consistent practice now that I'm doing it almost every day instead of a casual when i feel like it session that I'd done on an off for a year or so previously. I've been doing 30 minute long sits for a a bit more than a month. Definitely pleasant and peaceful, 'still' is probably the word that comes to mind because my body felt stilled as well as my mind, like my sitting posture was suddenly much more stable and solid like being anchored. I haven't seen it come up again in the last few sits so I suppose I'll just carry on meditating, if it comes or doesn't that's fine I remember when I was on a Goenka 10 day retreat once and on day six I had a "Bhanga" experience where your entire body dissolves. It was unlike anything I'd experienced before and it was followed by two hours of absolute bliss (like best mushroom trip I'd ever had multiplied by ten type of bliss). The entire rest of the retreat was spent seeking that experience again, even though I was consciously catching myself desiring it. Sometimes our minds can really grab those blissful experiences and stall our practice. We begin to expect those experiences as a sort of benchmark for progress. I've had a few good teachers tell me that the relationship between progress on the path and moments of unmatched bliss can act as a sort of test for our attachment, and a lot of us fail it for a while. It's bait for desire.
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Sep 26, 2015 05:24
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I saw Phakchok Rinpoche talk recently. He said that when a demon appears in front of you and tells you it will drag you to hell, you respond with "thank you" and then go back to meditating. Similarly, when Buddha appears before you and promises Nirvana, you respond with "thank you" and then go back to meditating.
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Sep 26, 2015 05:44
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prolapsed posted:It's a very slippery sloap telling people to enjoy certain sensations during meditation. It can be interpreted as a validation to grow attached to those sensations, which will hinder the practitioner. It's best to simply observe how your mind reacts to the pleasurable sensations. Latjkikopama Sutta quote:"Now, there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. (emphasis mine.) This makes of sense considering suttas like this: quote:"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that[4] — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality. The rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality is precisely the pleasure of deep meditation. Like this sutta says, you can't realistically give up pleasure through the senses unless you have something that's actually better, that's actually more pleasurable. But if you have access to a rapture and pleasure apart (i.e. not coming from the five senses) and apart from unskillful mental qualities (the five hindrances), then you cannot even be tempted by sensuality. Food, music, sex, etc. it can't even compete. But I do agree with you that if you sit down with craving: "may I bliss out in meditation, give me that bliss", that won't work. It's easy to see for oneself that this leads nowhere in meditation. But where does the pleasantness of meditation come from? It's "renunciation pleasure" according to the first sutta, what does that mean? Well, for example when your body disappears, that's a major chunk of something we identify with being gone, and that's bliss, why? Because having a body is suffering. In meditation, we're disappearing, we're existing less, and that's super enjoyable. Why? Because it's just suffering that's disappearing, and suffering disappearing is pleasurable. (The same line of reasoning can be found in the Nibbana Sutta.) Edit: Also, the Buddha before his enlightenment: quote:"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.' (emphasis mine) Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Sep 26, 2015 |
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Sep 26, 2015 08:16
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Pleasurable states of meditation exist. They are not the goal, but they are signposts along the way and are to be recognized, but not attached to or seen as goals in and of themselves. States of absorption that exist within jhana are described as joy or rapture, for example. They simply exist as states resulting from the process, and become less "coarse" as concentration matures. Eventually they dissapate entirely and are replaced by other more refined conditions. This is all laid out in the suttas, as well as Bhante Gunaratana's follow-up to Mindfulness in Plain English. As with all conditioned things, they should be understood in terms of their conditions and recognized as impermanent, but that does not mean they should be avoided. Aversion and craving are both problematic. I guess it depends on how you are meditating to a large degree. Some people strive for jhana absorption from the beginning in order to still the mind and cultivate mental states more conducive to quiet and calm insight. That has always made the most sense to me. Both approaches have support in the suttas. Keep your goal in mind, but don't feel that serenity or joy are somehow pitfalls or tricks or traps along the way. They can mean you are on the right road. Just don't stop and smell the flowers and decide to just call that spot your meditative home. Apologies in advance for typos and lack of sutta references as I am phone posting. My Theravada collegue in this thread is very diligent about throwing down the sources for these things.
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Sep 26, 2015 11:26
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Prickly Pete posted:Pleasurable states of meditation exist. They are not the goal, but they are signposts along the way and are to be recognized, but not attached to or seen as goals in and of themselves. What I object to is this "don't attach to it" that I hear everywhere (in Buddhist circles). If we look at dependent origination: Dependent Origination posted:"From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance." 'clinging/sustenance' is this Pali word upadana, which is sometimes translated as 'attachment', but also 'grasping', 'clinging' or 'fuel'. Fuel is actually makes sense in the context of dependent origination, because 'upadana/attachment/grasping/fuel' is what generates rebirth. So we have that craving is creating the fuel (attachment) that is creating rebirth. Anyway, from dependent origination, it's clear that this upadana (attachment) is simply generated by feeling. If you have feeling, you have craving; if you have craving, you have attachment. It's not like whether to be attached or not is a lifestyle choice. It doesn't make sense to say "don't attach to it", it's like saying "don't create the fuel that keeps you getting reborn in samsara" - if it were possible by an act of will to do that, the Buddha would probably just have taught that. Ok, moving on. The craving that creates the upadana (attachment/fuel) that again creates rebirth, what sort of craving is that? If we look at the first discourse of the Buddha, we see that it is: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta posted:And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. So, craving for sensual pleasure is 1/3 of the craving that keeps us in samsara. But if you look at the sutta I linked to in my previous post, you see that if you have the pleasure that is apart from sensuality - the jhanas - you cannot be tempted by sensuality, i.e. you don't crave for sensual pleasures no more because you have something better. Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta posted:"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. And I guess, if you have never heard the Buddhas teaching of non-self and impermanence, you might mistake the jhanas for some permanent self, eternal cosmic consciousness, union with christ, etc. But we already know it's not, because we've heard the teachings. You know the jhanas aren't the end, you couldn't fool yourself into thinking that even if you wanted to. So to sum up this long-winded argument, "be careful of pleasure in meditation or you might become attached to it" is a totally nonsensical thing to say. Edit: Because the Buddha said to not fear it and attachment is not a personal choice. Prickly Pete posted:States of absorption that exist within jhana are described as joy or rapture, for example. They simply exist as states resulting from the process, and become less "coarse" as concentration matures. Eventually they dissapate entirely and are replaced by other more refined conditions. This is all laid out in the suttas, as well as Bhante Gunaratana's follow-up to Mindfulness in Plain English. As with all conditioned things, they should be understood in terms of their conditions and recognized as impermanent, but that does not mean they should be avoided. Aversion and craving are both problematic. Dhammapada 372 posted:There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. (in the Pali the word translated as 'meditative concentration' is of course jhana. source) Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Sep 26, 2015 |
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Sep 26, 2015 14:01
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