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Was Zero being an okay guy and Cipher basically being a run amuck bunch of also-rans and AIs established before this game? I kind of saw him as Big Boss's partner in the cloak and dagger bullshit that almost ruined the world game before MGSV but now it seems he realized he was being a dick and tried to reconcile... except it was too late. I also half expected some kind of connection between Vamp and Skullator. Hungary and Romania are pretty close to each other! And their origins are pretty similar, just one with more fire and the other with more dubious symbolic sustenance
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Sep 12, 2015 01:55
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:How about, instead of quoting basically everything Big Boss has ever said since PW, you give me a quote that supports your made-up reading of Big Boss' motivations. Like I am baffled that you could possibly think Big Boss doesn't want endless war. It is literally the tagline for Outer Heaven at the begin of TPP, the culmination of his "dream." He tells people in every game that he shows up in that he wants to create a place where soldiers will never be obsolete, and will always have a battlefield to fight on. It is so incredibly explicit that I almost cannot believe you aren't just trolling. A lot of people ITT don't know what the word "explicit" means.
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Sep 12, 2015 01:55
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Digiwizzard posted:I know right, and he keeps mumbling about this Cipher guy which is weird because we already established he just wants to be a regular man who fights a lot. And then some other things happens. Nobody said the last part of that in this argument at all. Big Boss wanting a nation-state of soldiers in perpetual warfare is not actually the same as wanting to be 'a regular man who fights a lot' and that has not been a single person's argument. OnimaruXLR posted:Was Zero being an okay guy and Cipher basically being a run amuck bunch of also-rans and AIs established before this game? I kind of saw him as Big Boss's partner in the cloak and dagger bullshit that almost ruined the world game before MGSV but now it seems he realized he was being a dick and tried to reconcile... except it was too late. It was strongly implied. Zero being in a coma and the Patriots not being his was part of MGSIV, and we know that Anderson and Clark were dead as of MGS1.
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Sep 12, 2015 01:56
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Digiwizzard posted:A lot of people ITT don't know what the word "explicit" means. In what world is Big Boss looking at the camera and saying that he wants to create a world where soldiers are always needed, where his dream, Outer Heaven, is "just another day in a war without end," where he laments that without war, soldiers are useless, where he says he knows only war and can't envision a life outside of the battlefield, not loving explicit? You are tremendously bad at reading video game plots on even a surface level. edit: Still waiting for a single quote from the actual game that supports your claim that Big Boss wants to create a nation of soldiers so that they can all put down their guns and stop being soldiers, which is literally, point-blank the idea that he rejects at the end of Peace Walker. Uniting the world by putting down their weapons is The Boss' dream, and the whole series' major theme about how everyone ends up completely twisting her will doesn't really make much sense if he...doesn't twist her will. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 01:58
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Yeah, MSF starts out kinda seeming like an alright idea. But then in the process of expanding they become a goddamn nuclear power. An army that acts for themselves, has a freaking nuke! It's not a good thing, and I think the fact that they basically call it a PMC is significant because PMC's were shown as like one of the reasons the war economy was loving awful. Even the nuke is pretty understandable. For MSF to really become what Miller envisioned them, they need a nuclear arsenal. Otherwise they'd just get pushed around by the nuclear powers, who could always threaten to nuke Mother Base (or whatever host country they were representing) to get the MSF to stand down. Metal Gear and nuclear weapons were always core to the concept of Outer Heaven.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:00
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OnimaruXLR posted:Was Zero being an okay guy and Cipher basically being a run amuck bunch of also-rans and AIs established before this game? I kind of saw him as Big Boss's partner in the cloak and dagger bullshit that almost ruined the world game before MGSV but now it seems he realized he was being a dick and tried to reconcile... except it was too late. 1) it seems that way, he was on a downslide when BB dumped him but it looks like he didn't intend for the patriots/cipher/AI's to do what they did. 2) goddamn you're right. I wonder if that was the plan? He has the same "being immortal kinda stinks" thing going on at the end even though it wasnt addressed much in anything but tapes that he was extremely hard to kill and couldn't feel pain.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:00
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:In what world is Big Boss looking at the camera and saying that he wants to create a world where soldiers are always needed, where his dream, Outer Heaven, is "just another day in a war without end," where he laments that without war, soldiers are useless, where he says he knows only war and can't envision a life outside of the battlefield, not loving explicit? It's incredible that you can be this arrogant when your entire textual support is an opening anonymous caption. And a caption which is immediately and obviously not about a literal war but the metaphorical war going on inside Venom Snake's psyche. Basically, you're a dumbass. Kazuhira Miller: Remember why we created MSF, Snake: to provide military force to whoever needs it, wherever they are, regardless of nation or ideology. Our beliefs aren't all that lofty... Naked Snake (Big Boss): We just won't be the tools of any one country. Miller: Exactly. We know only how to fight... but we refuse to live our lives at the whim of the state. The MSF seal is patterned after Pangaea, the supercontinent from 250 million years ago. Back then, the whole world was one landmass. One world. No gaps, no rifts. Snake: Our strength will take us back there.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:07
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Digiwizzard posted:It's incredible that you can be this arrogant when your entire textual support is an opening anonymous caption. And a caption which is immediately and obviously not about a literal war but the metaphorical war going on inside Venom Snake's psyche. Basically, you're a dumbass. No, I offered you plenty of lines that he says in several games. I'm not going to go dig them up for word because I don't want to spend that much time when you are just going to blindly ignore it all anyway. The caption is both literal and metaphorical. It's Outer Heaven, a fortress he builds so that soldiers will always have a place to call home while they fight around the globe. Big Boss tries to carry out his dream three times and every single time it ends up being the same thing: a band of mercenaries fighting for money instead of ideologies. He literally says word for word in peace walker "I want to create a world where soldiers are always needed." What do you think soldiers are for? Fighting. Soldiers would not "always be needed" in a world where everyone unites and disarms, for christ's sake. Please explain how Big Boss literally saying he wants war to continue so that soldiers don't become obsolete and useless is in any way indicating that he plans to unite the world in peace. You are completely, absolutely, 100% misinterpreting some of the most basic plot points in this series. That quote doesn't support your argument at all...He is literally saying they are going to use force to make the world one. Nothing about that implies that they are going to throw away their weapons. The Boss, Big Boss, and Zero all want to unite the world in different ways. The Boss wants the world to put down its weapons and respect the will of others, Big Boss wants to unite the world in conflict that never ends (like the war economy in MGS4) and Zero wants to unite the world by controlling the way people think and interact. Big Boss considers the Boss a traitor to her ideals because she puts her gun down - he has twisted her intentions and can't reconcile them with her actions. Why the gently caress would he reject the Boss for doing that if he himself wanted everyone to put down their weapons? Like dude...you realize that everyone in this thread is disagreeing with you because you are wrong? The games flat-out explain all of this and I honestly feel like maybe you haven't played the games and just watched LPs and read a wiki or something. If not, then good lord.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:16
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Has anyone else noticed that Huey embodies the change in perception of nerds in popular culture from lovable awkward guys to manipulative neck beard sociopaths?
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Sep 12, 2015 02:20
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I'm sorry to interrupt whatever this is but I just saw the ending and I liked it. I felt that the point was that you, the player, become Big Boss, by being assigned his past and taking on his future, as a very literal expression of the idea of playing a video game character. It makes the lore a lot gnarlier but i value the experience more than the lore, which has never 100 percent made sense anyway. Also I used my real name and face at the beginning, so getting a personally signed note from "Vic" Boss was an extremely powerful moment for me
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Sep 12, 2015 02:21
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Digiwizzard posted:It's incredible that you can be this arrogant when your entire textual support is an opening anonymous caption. And a caption which is immediately and obviously not about a literal war but the metaphorical war going on inside Venom Snake's psyche. Basically, you're a dumbass. Nah he's right. Big Boss definitely buys in to the idea that constant warfare is necessary, although it seems like it maybe only occurs after Peace Walker.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:24
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:
Not all readings are equally valid. For example, when someone insists that there is plenty of explicit quotes that backs them up but can never provide any and when you call them on their bluff, they end up providing weird fanfic quotes that seem to have never occurred in the games. An opinion such as this is worthless.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:33
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ToxicAcne posted:Has anyone else noticed that Huey embodies the change in perception of nerds in popular culture from lovable awkward guys to manipulative neck beard sociopaths? I might believe it if the Japanese had any interest at all in our misbehaving nerds. If he's representative of anything intentionally I'd guess he's the example of Denial Uber Alles and lying to hide pain. That and the gamergate platonic ideal isn't anywhere near that passive. Remember they popped onto the scene via out and out death threats and doxxings. Huey just acts like a lovely person and then tries to throw blame around and talk his way out of it by saying anything. The gamergate set is defined by a shocking boldness about how lovely they are and don't care, Huey wants to hide his poo poo and lies at any cost, up to and including murder. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 02:38
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swamp waste posted:I'm sorry to interrupt whatever this is but I just saw the ending and I liked it. I felt that the point was that you, the player, become Big Boss, by being assigned his past and taking on his future, as a very literal expression of the idea of playing a video game character. It makes the lore a lot gnarlier but i value the experience more than the lore, which has never 100 percent made sense anyway. Absolutely. I felt like it was a heartfelt, loving and meta way for Kojima to say goodbye and give a kind of more personal closure to the series for players and to say "big boss has always been cool and I (as a creator) love him, because in a way he's you ans youve been rad" The message is very much meant for you, as in the you holding the controller.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:45
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Vengarr posted:Nah he's right. Big Boss definitely buys in to the idea that constant warfare is necessary, although it seems like it maybe only occurs after Peace Walker. No it doesn't. quote:Naked Snake: in the end, she put down her gun... and when she did... she rejected everything in her life up to that point, including me. He didn't take up that title because Big Boss was the person who killed the Boss. Accepting that title means accepting he has fallen. It means that he rejects any kind of peaceful future. Instead of following the Boss' example he basically took it as a personal insult. I really need to re-play Peace Walker because I'll be the first to admit that this was pretty subtle.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:46
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Idk, its kind of cornball but it hit me pretty emotionally. There's not a lot of artists and series I've been a mega-mark for since I was like 7 and certainly none of them went out of their way to say goodbye and that they consider me a friend. I loving suck im getting misty now Ugh
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Sep 12, 2015 02:48
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Haha, I totally felt the opposite. I was betrayed, made to play a role I didn't choose. Well, you want me to throw myself on the pyre of your Solid Snake so your idiotic dream can stay alive?! To hell with Big Boss...
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Sep 12, 2015 02:50
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Absolutely. Yeah. The part about how "we're both Big Boss" is what made me think that in particular. It's cool how the in-story and thematic reasons for things run in parallel; Snake doesn't talk much because his brain was damaged, but also because he's you now, it's you deciding how to handle things, not a main character with his own identity. He doesn't speak Russian because he's a different dude who never learned it, but also because you don't (unless you do i guess)
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Sep 12, 2015 02:53
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Digiwizzard posted:Not all readings are equally valid. For example, when someone insists that there is plenty of explicit quotes that backs them up but can never provide any and when you call them on their bluff, they end up providing weird fanfic quotes that seem to have never occurred in the games. An opinion such as this is worthless. Naked Snake: in the end, she put down her gun... and when she did... she rejected everything in her life up to that point, including me. Kazuhira Miller: what do you mean? Naked Snake: in giving up her life she abandoned everything she was as a soldier... Kazuhira Miller: and you consider that betrayal... Naked Snake: I won't make the same choice as her, my future's going to be different... Kazuhira Miller: then... Naked Snake: yeah, that's right... from now on... call me BIG BOSS! "...If the times demand we'll be revolutionaries, criminals, terrorists... And yes, we may all be headed straight to hell, but what better place for us then this? It is our only home, our heaven and our hell... This is Outer Heaven." The nightmares? They never go away, Snake. Once you've been on the battlefield, tasted the exhilaration, the tension... it all becomes part of you. Once you've awakened the warrior within... it never sleeps again. You crave ever bigger tensions, ever bigger thrills. As a mercenary, I'd think you would have realized that by now. You care nothing for power, or money, or even sex. The only thing that satisfies your cravings is war! All I've done is give you a place for it. I've given you a reason to live. No offense, but I don't know what peace is. I'm sure there are many more but I'm not going to spend all night looking up quotes. You are just flat loving wrong, dude. Please find *one single quote* backing up your claim that Big Boss' vision of the world is one where soldiers put down their weapons, like you said. You can't, because you made it up. Literally every single wiki, plot summary, write-up, etc. about these games points out the "endless war" part of his plan. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 02:55
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:It already got confirmed to be fake, it was some indie dev team trading on Kojima's name to promote their lovely horror game that will be "sort of like Silent Hills would have been." It's already dead in the water, but it looks like all the juicy stuff got taken down and I wanted to see all the people going batshit and cursing Kojima's name over something he had no involvement in whatsoever.
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Sep 12, 2015 02:56
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CrashCat posted:Wow, that sounds incredibly stupid. Bummer that you weren't able to salvage some rage posts for us to gawk at. That post in itself ended up being fake, as the Kojima lives twitter doesn't actually follow anyone. Ingsoc counted down, now there's an SH reference. I haven't kept up with it since the countdown finished Nevermind quote:Final Edit: looks like this was a ruse by an independent third party. Obviously, I'm disappointed.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:03
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Full Battle Rattle posted:That post in itself ended up being fake, as the Kojima lives twitter doesn't actually follow anyone. Ingsoc counted down, now there's an SH reference. I haven't kept up with it since the countdown finished Yeah, the guys running the site ended up texting the dude running things on reddit and basically didn't understand how some people might be disappointed about what they did. Then it apparently linked to a FunHaus video for a while (and now their twitter is getting blown up by angry people) and then switched to a charity video or something? The entire thing is pretty weird and dumb, but it was basically guaranteed to be fake from the start.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:06
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"I'M ALREADY A DEMON" yells animal rescuing, child liberating man fighting against a worldwide sinister conspiracy and a child killing wannabe hitler while armed with a dart gun he said he's a demon i don't see why people are not getting this
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Sep 12, 2015 03:10
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It's so confusing, I don't understand how one side can be bad and the other side not inherently good.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:13
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Just watch the ending to mgs4. He basically calls everyone he used to hang with idiots and that Snake needed to do what he couldn't, which was stop fighting.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:14
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blackguy32 posted:Just watch the ending to mgs4. He basically calls everyone he used to hang with idiots and that Snake needed to do what he couldn't, which was stop fighting. Yeah, he realizes (too late, like the Boss) that his dream could never be a reality, and that it twisted him into something he couldn't look at in the mirror anymore. His whole speech to Solid is about rising above his "father" and living the rest of his life as a man instead of a soldier. Big Boss lives long enough to see what a world of constant war actually looks like thanks to the Patriot AIs, and he realizes what he has been working towards all along wasn't the answer.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:17
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Though to be fair, Snake stopped fighting after killing almost everyone who had started the fighting, up to and including literally beating Ocelot to death. It's pretty easy to stop fighting when everyone but you and the remaining nice people are dead. Also if everybody'd listen to The Boss the future wouldn't be cyborg guys with katanas cutting the poo poo out of Metal Gears and each other so maybe The Boss was full of poo poo because that future loving rules.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:18
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The Boss' will was just as implausible as Big Boss and Zero's plans to unite the worlds, and it is fitting that everyone got obsessed with it just like everyone later gets obsessed with Big Boss' legacy.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:20
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ImpAtom posted:It's so confusing, I don't understand how one side can be bad and the other side not inherently good. its okay i mean hitler 2 thought he was doing the right thing so maybe morality is relative but also absolute because basically everyone is a bad guy and gently caress you if you don't get that. vocal chord parasites.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:24
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"War isn't cool, after my second insanely long nap I know that now. Snake, don't be like me. Take a nap."
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Sep 12, 2015 03:25
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Snake just wanted to retire anyway, and he had basically rejected BB's ideology pretty thoroughly by the end of MG2, probably also had sex with Holly, retired to Alaska and all things considered poo poo was going pretty good before MGS.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:31
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Drinkfist posted:AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH this is the worst 9/11 ever
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Sep 12, 2015 03:34
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Nakar posted:Though to be fair, Snake stopped fighting after killing almost everyone who had started the fighting, up to and including literally beating Ocelot to death. It's pretty easy to stop fighting when everyone but you and the remaining nice people are dead. It's been a while but wasn't Ocelot killed by v2 foxdie? The fistfight was just a sex metaphor
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Sep 12, 2015 03:41
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The philosophical progression as I understand it is as follows The Boss: gently caress yourself over for in pursuit of your ideals Big Boss: Your ideals are what matter and gently caress anyone who gets in the way Solid Snake: gently caress ideals, keep crazy people from killing innocent people Raiden: Kill the crazy people who wanna kill innocents so hard they'd need a nano-assembler to get put back together
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Sep 12, 2015 03:42
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Liquid: doesn't Big Boss's poo poo sound cool with a sneering british accent? (answer: yes) Big Mama: LOVE BIG BOSS BIG TIME
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Sep 12, 2015 03:48
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Big Mama: LOVE BIG BOSS BIG TIME The same as Ocelot's philosophy.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:49
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Did Huey intentionally let Skull Face destroy MSF? I know everything he does afterwards is crazy, but it seemed like he had naively good intentions for the nuclear inspection.
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Sep 12, 2015 04:00
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SyntheticPolygon posted:The same as Ocelot's philosophy. Yeah but at least he recognized he was just boycrushing by TPP. Big Mama was jumping into open flames to get ahold of his half dead torso and she had no contact with him for decades. That's some good dick.
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Sep 12, 2015 04:03
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Yeah but at least he recognized he was just boycrushing by TPP. Big Mama was jumping into open flames to get ahold of his half dead torso and she had no contact with him for decades. It's even worse, because she knows the corpse isn't BB and jumps into the flames just to keep up the ruse. I mean she probably knew she was dying anyway, but still. That is some dedication.
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Sep 12, 2015 04:06
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Watching cut scenes and listening to the tapes again. I love when Venom asks who the guy was that led him to safety, Ocelot just ignores the question lol. I'm not entirely convinced Ocelot successfully hypnotized himself. He kept dropping so many hints that Venom isn't Big Boss throughout the game.
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Sep 12, 2015 04:11
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