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School Nickname posted:"These colors don't run into my country" - Danish PM  holy poo poo
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Sep 14, 2015 10:57
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 03:55 |
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Probably asked and answered but what's stopping countries from denying asylum applications and deporting these people if they don't want them there? Like the EU can't actually force anyone into taking them, right?
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Sep 14, 2015 11:07
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Aspergeoisie posted:Probably asked and answered but what's stopping countries from denying asylum applications and deporting these people if they don't want them there? Like the EU can't actually force anyone into taking them, right? Penalties. The Austrian chancellor proposed that the countries in favour of the quota system could pass it unilaterally (they would be enough to form a qualified majority) and cut EU spendings for those countries who won't participate. Since most of these countries are net recipients of EU money this would actually hurt them.
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Sep 14, 2015 11:10
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And then there's having a pissy Angy at the helm of Germany who may or may not remember your little rebellion next time something important comes up.
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Sep 14, 2015 11:12
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Honj Steak posted:I stopped debating Hungarian politics with Hungarians long ago. You will either get someone who downplays the extent of far-right extremism in the country or someone who outright supports it. When I touched the topic of Jobbik using symbols of the fascist Arrow Cross Party you mostly heard something like "It's an old Hungarian tradition and it's good there are people who uphold it". When I said Jobbik and Fidesz politicians were openly talking about "the world's jewry destroying the integrity of our state" I heard "Well, there is some truth to that statement". I know a Hungarian actually who has national pride but says he's despairing for Hungary because of its fascistic nationalism. He is proud of his country's cultural heritage and laments the diaspora of the annexation of Hungary by the surrounding countries, but he doesn't believe they should try and take back those areas and he hates Jobbik and the current government. He absolutely does not play down the far-right extremism. Mind you he also doesn't have a knee-jerk reaction to communism/socialism despite having grown up in the Hungarian People's Republic. He's critical of the implementation as opposed to the ideals of communism. He's a nice fellow.
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Sep 14, 2015 11:16
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Tesseraction posted:I know a Hungarian actually who has national pride but says he's despairing for Hungary because of its fascistic nationalism. He is proud of his country's cultural heritage and laments the diaspora of the annexation of Hungary by the surrounding countries, but he doesn't believe they should try and take back those areas and he hates Jobbik and the current government. He absolutely does not play down the far-right extremism. Yeah I suppose there must be at least some people in Hungary opposed to their general madness. I only know a handful of them but my experiences were quite bad, unfortunately. Well, actually I know another Hungarian who is a cool lad opposed to the political sentiments, but he's virtually a Jew that won't return into his native country because he fears persecution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A1s_Schiff
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Sep 14, 2015 11:21
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Main Paineframe posted:If a local strongman rolls up to the food truck with a bunch of armed men and says "The people who need this food aren't getting this food, because I think they should also die and also I like the sound of 'free food'" then that is absolutely an ideological problem. It's not physically, organizationally, or technologically impossible to get food to the people; the problem is that someone is interfering with the supply chain for ideological reasons. But the reason for him denying the food isn't necessarily because of ideology, it's because hunger and control of food supply is a useful way to cement his own control over the region. He's acting out of material self interest because a food secure population is more likely to slip out of his control.
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Sep 14, 2015 11:35
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Typo posted:But the reason for him denying the food isn't necessarily because of ideology, it's because hunger and control of food supply is a useful way to cement his own control over the region. He's acting out of material self interest because a food secure population is more likely to slip out of his control. Oh, stop nitpicking. The root of it is ideology.
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Sep 14, 2015 11:39
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Austria just introduced border controls, too.
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Sep 14, 2015 11:51
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Starshark posted:Oh, stop nitpicking. The root of it is ideology. No it's really not
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Sep 14, 2015 11:55
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Typo posted:No it's really not There's nothing ideological about believing you should have power over other people? Good Lord.
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Sep 14, 2015 12:00
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Effectronica posted:There's nothing ideological about believing you should have power over other people? Good Lord. If that's how you choose to define ideological then it's a useless definition.
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Sep 14, 2015 12:06
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This is-it-ideology thing seems more like a cross-talk thing. Typo says the problem is distribution channels as they can't account for assholes nicking all the stuff. The others, I believe, are saying that the assholes nicking all the stuff are the problem which should be solved first. Honj Steak posted:Austria just introduced border controls, too. Oh good. The sad thing is I have a feeling that when a crisis of this scale comes around again as it inevitably will, the same stupid mistakes will be made.
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Sep 14, 2015 12:29
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German CDU starting talks with coalition partners about an "immigration law" that could open up legal ways of getting to Europe as a refugee without using smugglers.
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Sep 14, 2015 13:10
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Honj Steak posted:German CDU starting talks with coalition partners about an "immigration law" that could open up legal ways of getting to Europe as a refugee without using smugglers. It should also be noted that the refugees that are caught at the Austrian-German border are not sent back. Their traffickers are arrested and the refugees themselves are processed like all the other refugees that came to Germany in the last few weeks.
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Sep 14, 2015 13:19
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Does anyone care to comment on this article? Is this why Germany did its about face with its borders yesterday? http://www.vox.com/2015/9/13/9319741/germany-borders-merkel quote:In a shocking development in the European migrant crisis, Germany is immediately introducing border controls in the south of the country, Interior Minister Thomas de Maizière announced on Sunday. The government of Chancellor Angela Merkel claimed "urgent security reasons."
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Sep 14, 2015 13:25
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Yadoppsi posted:Does anyone care to comment on this article? Is this why Germany did its about face with its borders yesterday? Yeah seems about correct. De Maiziére personally said he wanted the measure "to be a statement", one could assume that means a statement towards other EU countries.
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Sep 14, 2015 13:32
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Yadoppsi posted:Does anyone care to comment on this article? Is this why Germany did its about face with its borders yesterday? Finally somebody doing something about this. There is only so much strain that a social system can handle.
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Sep 14, 2015 13:43
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chessmaster13 posted:Finally somebody doing something about this. There is only so much strain that a social system can handle. That's not what the article says. Money is no problem - the government just recently allocated an additional six billion Euros for refugee welfare in 2015. The problem is that in the last two weeks the influx was way too fast to deal with it in any orderly way. Also Merkel seemingly really wants the other EU countries to help.
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Sep 14, 2015 13:50
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Honj Steak posted:That's not what the article says. Money is no problem - the government just recently allocated an additional six billion Euros for refugee welfare in 2015. The problem is that in the last two weeks the influx was way too fast to deal with it in any orderly way. Also Merkel seemingly really wants the other EU countries to help. Money is not the problem you say? Does this money come from thin air? My prediction is, that many much needed things wont happen because of this crisis. Our roads already look like poo poo and there not enough daycares (every child has claim to a place in a daycare here). I not patriotic, in fact I see countrys like shared flats, and there is a limit on how many people can crash on the couch and take things from the fridge.
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Sep 14, 2015 14:19
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chessmaster13 posted:Money is not the problem you say? Does this money come from thin air? There are gunmen shooting up your apartment? Nah, sorry you can't crash here it could get crowded.
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Sep 14, 2015 14:34
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Money does come from thin air, actually, that's half the joy of fiat currency. How pulling money from thin air affects the economy is a different matter, although it's worth noting that some countries deliberately devalue their currency to increase trade (see: Switzerland).
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Sep 14, 2015 14:38
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Also why do the people in this scenario 'take things' from fridge. You mean that initially the refugees won't be stocking your hypothetical fridge to make up for initial borrowing? Have you heard of 'return on investment'?
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Sep 14, 2015 14:40
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Plus Germany is insanely rich. Maybe it's not the worst idea to tax the people who have a lot of money a bit more.
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Sep 14, 2015 14:47
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Tesseraction posted:Also why do the people in this scenario 'take things' from fridge. You mean that initially the refugees won't be stocking your hypothetical fridge to make up for initial borrowing? Have you heard of 'return on investment'? I am familar with the concept of ROI. But if you consider that many of those people have no education which could be applied in our modern society that ROI will very likely be very negative. Making other peoples problems your problems (without them being able to give you back more than you invested) seems like a bad deal for me.
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Sep 14, 2015 14:52
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chessmaster13 posted:I am familar with the concept of ROI. But if you consider that many of those people have no education which could be applied in our modern society that ROI will very likely be very negative. Err... What?
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Sep 14, 2015 14:53
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The border closing is aimed at other non-cooperative EU states, they've made this fairly clear. No one can realistically blame Germany for not stepping up to the occasion. If anything, the EU has proven itself (both in the debt crises and migrant crisis) to be fair-weather alliance ruled by FYGM and NIMBY attitudes, and is due to either transform or collapse soon.
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Sep 14, 2015 14:54
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chessmaster13 posted:I am familar with the concept of ROI. But if you consider that many of those people have no education which could be applied in our modern society that ROI will very likely be very negative. As bolded here: my dad posted:Err... What? The refugees are overwhelming religiously moderate, educated people and their families. Germany in fact deliberately weighted the best-educated refugees towards their country. These people are probably smarter than the average citizen in several of the countries around Europe. I'm even tempted to say Britain included there.
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Sep 14, 2015 14:57
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Typo posted:But the reason for him denying the food isn't necessarily because of ideology, it's because hunger and control of food supply is a useful way to cement his own control over the region. He's acting out of material self interest because a food secure population is more likely to slip out of his control. "I want to starve out anyone who doesn't agree with me" is definitely an ideological problem. I'm saying that this isn't like a natural disaster zone or an 18th-century famine where technological, organizational, and physical limitations make it virtually impossible to get sufficient food into the area in time. If food supplies are failing to make it to starving people, then it's because someone decided that food shouldn't make it to those starving people. And "the local government/warlord/armed gang decided those people shouldn't get fed" is absolutely an ideological cause of logistical failures.
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Sep 14, 2015 15:56
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chessmaster13 posted:Money is not the problem you say? Does this money come from thin air? literally MY TAX DOLLARS. glad to see european political economy progress to 1968. welcome to the future
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Sep 14, 2015 17:28
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This goes back to the monetary union without fiscal/political union problem. Germany's threats to withhold EU funds from countries not playing along with Merkel's refugee distribution plan only goes so far--not far enough to counter more conservative countries' instinctive fears regarding uncontrolled migration.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:34
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icantfindaname posted:literally MY TAX DOLLARS. glad to see european political economy progress to 1968. welcome to the future What's the counterpoint, though? That countries are actually endowed with infinite resources or something?
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Sep 14, 2015 17:39
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Did Denmark participate in the Iraq War?
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Sep 14, 2015 17:41
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Any chance that Oz will change attitudes towards refugees now that Abbott's out?
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Sep 14, 2015 17:50
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Smudgie Buggler posted:What's the counterpoint, though? That countries are actually endowed with infinite resources or something? The counterpoint is that the amount of resources necessary to support refugees is far from bankrupting European countries, and this is so obvious that there's little point in explicitly stating this.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:53
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chessmaster13 posted:I am familar with the concept of ROI. But if you consider that many of those people have no education which could be applied in our modern society that ROI will very likely be very negative. Syrians are likely to not only have an education but a good one though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Syria
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Sep 14, 2015 17:54
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Apparently Swedish politicians want to put refugees on remote islands, and Swedes are saying refugees would be ungrateful to oppose this measure, and that they've already obtained a better life "without lifting a finger". Racist Euros now have to pretend refugees all took a plane to Europe now.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:54
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Smudgie Buggler posted:What's the counterpoint, though? That countries are actually endowed with infinite resources or something? Not infinite but it's basically ignoring that resources are actually pretty abundant and economic metrics are mostly just there to gently caress the poor. Not only to do it, but mostly.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:57
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Smudgie Buggler posted:What's the counterpoint, though? That countries are actually endowed with infinite resources or something? They're endowed with enough resources to easily accomodate all the immigrants they are facing. Even more so because those immigrants themselves are in fact resources which contribute to the economy of their new countries
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Sep 14, 2015 18:04
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Reminder the UK expenses scandal is probably all over Euro parliaments as well, so basically gently caress off with this "woe is us poor Europeans". They're all crooked bastards, squeeze 'em with taxes and get these people housed and fed. Also the United States should be looking at way way more than only 65,000.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:04
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