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Dante80 posted:A question as an outsider. Reading about American history, it looks evident to me that your nation was indeed founded on racist principles (native American eradication + slavery). And it took a long time, effort, blood, war and death for USA to (for the most part) overcome those principles and evolve into a democratic society. Well, you're not supposed to touch your country's foundational myths as a politician. But it's not so much the accuracy of the statement itself, it's what it implies about Sanders. If the Republicans can spin it to make him look like yet another limp-wristed leftist promoting white guilt and bringing up racism as an excuse for crime and rioting, that could cost him. That's how they won the 1968 election after years of black riots. However, he's not even on their radar yet, so chances are that everyone's going to forget about it.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:50
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Bernie gets blasted for not speaking to black people and now gets blasted for a statement that cuts to the heart of the matter What a world
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Sep 14, 2015 17:52
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I'm sure most of Bernie's supporters already endorse that sentiment (and like a lot of things Bernie says, it's completely accurate), but I could see it being a big problem for wishy-washy centrist democrats. It just adds another obstacle to making inroads in Southern primary states. And if he were to make it to the general it's a quote that would be used against him alot.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:52
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Phlegmish posted:Well, you're not supposed to touch your country's foundational myths as a politician. But it's not so much the accuracy of the statement itself, it's what it implies about Sanders. If the Republicans can spin it to make him look like yet another limp-wristed leftist promoting white guilt and bringing up racism as an excuse for crime and rioting, that could cost him. That's how they won the 1968 election after years of black riots. The only people concerned with the foundational myths are the 20-30% of the population who thought GW Bush was doing a great job at his lowest points, ie: the people that will never vote for any democrat ever.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:53
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You know who else founded a country on racist principles....
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Sep 14, 2015 17:53
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Joementum posted:Quote of the day, "Are they really escaping tyranny, are they escaping poverty, or are they really just coming because we've got cable TV? I don't meant to be trite. I'm just saying: We don't know." ~ Mike Huckabee, on Syrian refugees. It can't be said enough but gently caress Mike Huckabee.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:53
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Joementum posted:You know who else founded a country on racist principles.... zeus
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Sep 14, 2015 17:55
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Dante80 posted:A question as an outsider. Reading about American history, it looks evident to me that your nation was indeed founded on racist principles (native American eradication + slavery). And it took a long time, effort, blood, war and death for USA to (for the most part) overcome those principles and evolve into a democratic society. LuciferMorningstar posted:It's not really hard to see that the US was founded on racist principles. It was also founded with certain economic interests in mind, mainly with regard to protecting the rights of wealthier landowners. However, the average American becomes extremely uncomfortable when you bring these things up, because a) it makes it clear that we didn't start on a fair playing field, and b) it implies that there are ongoing issues that still exist that weren't magically solved when the slaves were freed. There are actual racists that will be turned off by Sanders saying this, but they probably already disliked him, so there's no great loss there. The concern, I think, is rather that the narrative will become "Sanders says were all racists who live in a country founded on slavery," which makes everyone feel bad and uncomfortable while also sounding kind of unpatriotic, despite being true. So of course the obvious solution is to change history: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/rewriting-history-texas-tackles-textbook-debate/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2014/11/texas-approves-textbooks-with-moses-as-founding-father/ quote:Christian conservatives win, children lose: Texas textbooks will teach public school students that the Founding Fathers based the Constitution on the Bible, and the American system of democracy was inspired by Moses. 
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Sep 14, 2015 17:58
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Dante80 posted:
Both, of course. The Tragic Idealist isn't wrong. Of COURSE the nation's founding principles were inherently racist. We treated black people as 3/5ths of a person and we tacitly allowed half the country to own slaves until 1865. Americans, however, don't like to hear the bad parts of our history. If the great nations of this world were people, America would be a spoiled 5-year-old who bullies other nations and is protected by his mother who says his teachers "just don't understand him". We are, as a whole, a bunch of whiny, entitled, mean, stupid, scared assholes who are threatened by change and don't like to be told what we're doing wrong. Study the 1980 election (Carter vs. Reagan) if you want to see the "happy warrior" concept in action. Carter told the nation what we needed to hear; Reagan told the nation what we wanted to hear. Guess who won. Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Sep 14, 2015 |
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Sep 14, 2015 17:59
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Lessail posted:Bernie gets blasted for not speaking to black people and now gets blasted for a statement that cuts to the heart of the matter Do not worry many will be eating squab.
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Sep 14, 2015 17:59
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Joementum posted:Quote of the day, "Are they really escaping tyranny, are they escaping poverty, or are they really just coming because we've got cable TV? I don't meant to be trite. I'm just saying: We don't know." ~ Mike Huckabee, on Syrian refugees.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:00
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In my view, it makes sense to see if Bernie actually does take a hit for that statement before determining that it will be a problem for his campaign. Unless you, personally, object to the statement and will vote against Bernie because of it.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:00
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Lessail posted:Bernie gets blasted for not speaking to black people and now gets blasted for a statement that cuts to the heart of the matter Bernie gets blasted for having really good ideas but not appearing so great at the "art of the possible" part of politics where how you say something is pretty important to whether it actually moves beyond just talk to agreement and forward motion.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:00
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A Neurotic Jew posted:I'm sure most of Bernie's supporters already endorse that sentiment (and like a lot of things Bernie says, it's completely accurate), but I could see it being a big problem for wishy-washy centrist democrats. It just adds another obstacle to making inroads in Southern primary states. And if he were to make it to the general it's a quote that would be used against him alot. uh, centrist white democrats would not hold him back in southern dem primaries, its black support
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Sep 14, 2015 18:01
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fade5 posted:Yeah Sanders is right, but the US doesn't like to admit that it's built on the backs of Native American blood and Slaves, because it makes us feel bad. Don't worry, we didn't actually use the textbook in high school and this was in the early 2000s. They constantnly prepared us for the tests because we tested poorly on history and science as a whole. Only the good schools will use them, and then hopefully kids don't actually pay attention to any of it (  )
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Sep 14, 2015 18:01
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Joementum posted:Quote of the day, "Are they really escaping tyranny, are they escaping poverty, or are they really just coming because we've got cable TV? I don't meant to be trite. I'm just saying: We don't know." ~ Mike Huckabee, on Syrian refugees. Man who fancies himself best candidate for leader of the free world doesn't know cause of biblical-scale refugee crisis
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Sep 14, 2015 18:04
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Zelder posted:Speaking of racist beginnings, I'm actually getting worried about this loud racist fervour that trump is whipping up in America He's doing us a favor by bringing all the racists out of their hiding holes into the daylight. We can only hope the entire Republican party follows them.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:05
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:uh, centrist white democrats would not hold him back in southern dem primaries, its black support Getting black support is probably the biggest obstacle but it's not the only one, and it's better not to make more obstacles for yourself. On top of getting the black vote, getting the largest possible share of white people is also good!
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Sep 14, 2015 18:06
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Lessail posted:Bernie gets blasted for not speaking to black people and now gets blasted for a statement that cuts to the heart of the matter I don't really think one guy saying "this statement is true but not politically wise/won't play well with the electorate" counts as blasting
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Sep 14, 2015 18:06
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Joementum posted:Quote of the day, "Are they really escaping tyranny, are they escaping poverty, or are they really just coming because we've got cable TV? I don't meant to be trite. I'm just saying: We don't know." ~ Mike Huckabee, on Syrian refugees. This is performance art
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Sep 14, 2015 18:07
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Maybe after his reception at Liberty, Bernie will be invited to speak at Trump University.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:07
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Zikan posted:Bill Clinton lost both Iowa and New Hampshire and still won the primary. I love election stats, and for primary maps, my all-time favorite is the 1992 Democratic Primary:  Blue is Paul Tsongas, Green is Jerry Brown, Red is Clinton, yellow is Bob Kerrey, and Purple is uncommitted. The brown shaded states are Harkin -- he won his home state (Iowa) which was not contested by any other candidate that year, stripping it of its importance. Clinton won the Idaho primary, but lost the caucus to Harkin, where the delegates came from. The Idaho caucus county-by-county map in 92 is a great one: "Uncommitted" even won a few counties, which probably have like, 8 Democrats total. 1992 is interesting for another reason -- by calendar date, it is the only primary in history where the first four delegate-counted events (Iowa caucuses, New Hampshire primary, Maine caucuses, and South Dakota primary) were won by different candidates (Harkin in Iowa, Tsongas in NH, Jerry Brown in ME, and Bob Kerrey in SD). I believe there were two other times where the first three contests were won by different candidates -- 1996 (Bob Dole, Pat Buchanan, Steve Forbes) and 2012 (Santorum, Romney, Gingrich)
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Sep 14, 2015 18:07
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Political scandals in america frequently happen when a politician points out something that is both obvious and true, but is also somewhat uncomfortable for those hearing it. See also: the entire political career of one Joseph R. Biden.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:08
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railroad terror posted:1992 is interesting for another reason -- by calendar date, it is the only primary in history where the first four delegate-counted events (Iowa caucuses, New Hampshire primary, Maine caucuses, and South Dakota primary) were won by different candidates (Harkin in Iowa, Tsongas in NH, Jerry Brown in ME, and Bob Kerrey in SD). A big part of the reason for this is that people still thought Cuomo would get in the race.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:09
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Louisgod posted:It can't be said enough but gently caress Mike Huckabee. Maybe they want the freedom to torture and kill a dog and get away with it (like Huckabee's son) or to molest their sisters and get away with it (like Huckabee's good friends and supporters, the Duggar family). Mike Huckabee is a garbage excuse for a human being in pretty much every conceivable way.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:09
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JeffersonClay posted:He's doing us a favor by bringing all the racists out of their hiding holes into the daylight. We can only hope the entire Republican party follows them. Eh I've never had any trouble finding racists, but I'm a black guy in the south so eh
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Sep 14, 2015 18:10
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Joementum posted:A big part of the reason for this is that people still thought Cuomo would get in the race. Very true -- and de facto home state victories (Iowa and SD, with NH counting as mini-Massachusetts)
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Sep 14, 2015 18:10
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Zelder posted:I don't really think one guy saying "this statement is true but not politically wise/won't play well with the electorate" counts as blasting Hmm I'll get back to you on that
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Sep 14, 2015 18:12
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Zelder posted:Eh I've never had any trouble finding racists, but I'm a black guy in the south so eh Yea, that white trash deserve what they get...
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Sep 14, 2015 18:16
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Alter Ego posted:Both, of course. Sanders isn't wrong. Of COURSE the nation's founding principles were inherently racist. We treated black people as 3/5ths of a person I don't think there is a single aspect of the Early Republic more misunderstood than the 3/5 Compromise. Nothing personal, but this myth keeps getting passed around come election season. It was a good thing that reduced the Congressional power of slave states. Slave states wanted slaves to count on a 1:1 basis, thus increasing their political power. Your larger point is right though.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:20
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Fuschia tude posted:This is literally me. Also 100% of my Paulite Facebook friends post Sanders articles now. I've said it roughly a million times over the years, but the vast bulk of libertarians have generally been younger internet-savvy people looking for an alternative to the Republicans, but who either lived where supporting the Democrats was socially unacceptable or were simply unimpressed by what they had to offer. A lot of the success of Ron Paul likely came from both that and the fact that the geek crowd in the early days of the internet contained a lot of libertarians. So a lot of people looking for a fresh approach to politics encountered an older peer group which contained many articulate libertarians, Neil Stephenson being the example that stands out in my mind. I'm glad that people are finding a better alternative in Sanders. My main criticisms on that level are: a) they should keep in mind that not everyone is automatically comfortable thinking of an old white guy as a father figure and a lot of people in the Democratic coalition have very good reasons to be initially inclined not to, b) memes are funny but also only slightly more persuasive than a bumper sticker, c) years of exposure to and acceptance of right-wing memes may have distorted their opinions on certain topics and the right hates the Clintons just as much as they hate Obama, and most importantly, d) techies have benefited massively from neoliberal policies. All that money constantly being shoved at startups? That was a huge part of the rationale for things like the Bush-era tax cuts. Most techie types I know find the results even more amusing than anyone else does, but the fact is that they don't really have any standing to criticize the establishment. Especially the Clintons- Gore wasn't wrong about his role in helping foster the success of the internet and if you disagree you should look up what he actually said. People outside of their bubble will think they are full of poo poo if they act like this isn't the case.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:22
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Marlows posted:I don't think there is a single aspect of the Early Republic more misunderstood than the 3/5 Compromise. Nothing personal, but this myth keeps getting passed around come election season.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:23
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A Neurotic Jew posted:Getting black support is probably the biggest obstacle but it's not the only one, and it's better not to make more obstacles for yourself. On top of getting the black vote, getting the largest possible share of white people is also good! As a member of one of the minority Crown Jewels of the democrats, seeing a candidate appeal to minority support without regard towards hypersensitive centrist "liberals" just endears him to me more. It suggests he might actually push to help them, instead of just reluctantly providing lip service when others help said group.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:26
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PT6A posted:
don't gently caress with the Huck
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Sep 14, 2015 18:31
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Scott Walker's campaign platform, to be announced today:quote:- Working with Congress to eliminate public sector labor unions on the federal level and encourage state and local governments to do the same.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:31
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Timby posted:Scott Walker's campaign platform, to be announced today:
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Sep 14, 2015 18:33
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Timby posted:Scott Walker's campaign platform, to be announced today: It reads like an Onion article.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:33
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Joementum posted:In my view, it makes sense to see if Bernie actually does take a hit for that statement before determining that it will be a problem for his campaign. I think it will have no effect (or even a positive one) in the primaries, but it might be problematic in the scenario where he wins the nomination and turns it into a regular talking point.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:33
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never say that the Donald is not magnanimous with his retweets
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Sep 14, 2015 18:37
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Louisgod posted:It can't be said enough but gently caress Mike Huckabee. It's also really condescending. I'm not sure how far cable television specifically has penetrated in the Middle East, but in general they have access to plenty of media.
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Sep 14, 2015 18:40
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