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I wonder if there's enough people for a new version of "lets all play factorio." Dedicated server would make it much easier than passing a save around. Log in, start an hour timer, log off. You could have a 2nd player online to take screenshots/write commentary.
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Sep 14, 2015 21:50
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I did make one change to Bob's Mods to fix something that drove me completely loving insane. I got rid of "synthetic wood" since it breaks your auto crafting for any recipe with normal wood in it. Instead, chemical plants can produce wood boards directly, which I renamed "particle board" for flavor reasons. Overall, I really don't like Bob's Mods. Having a billion ores and chemicals and production taking multiple steps with no additional inputs through several different types of factory just doesn't feel like good gameplay to me. I think the original game needs more levels of technology, but this isn't the way to do it. Edit: There's already a Bob's Mods multiplayer Let's Play on Youtube. It's pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMeIdBGqxY
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Sep 14, 2015 23:51
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Dirk the Average posted:Yeah, one of the most interesting things about Bob's mods is just how much less iron you end up needing. Steel only costs two iron plates instead of five, and circuits don't use iron, so you end up using comparatively little. I wouldn't go that far - in my second Bob's Mod test game, which only has about 60-70 hours on it, I'm having trouble holding back the biters with sniper turrets plus piercing ammo. I may have to start building lasers. KillHour posted:Edit: There's already a Bob's Mods multiplayer Let's Play on Youtube. It's pretty good. I've been watching that, and Steejo's Bob's mods playthrough, and Arumba's playthrough that originally introduced me to the mod. It's incredibly frustrating how they all seem to have no appreciation for building to a proper scale .
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Sep 15, 2015 10:34
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Newbie question: How do you get into Sandbox mode? The mode where you aren't shown as a person. Thanks.
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Sep 15, 2015 17:09
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Sandbox mode is a scenario type under "custom scenario". You'll probably also want to familiarize yourself with some console commands to handle stuff like cheating in items.
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Sep 15, 2015 17:44
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Moddington posted:Sandbox mode is a scenario type under "custom scenario". You'll probably also want to familiarize yourself with some console commands to handle stuff like cheating in items. Thanks!!  This game is really really challenging to me, I don't have a particularly logical mind but I keep coming back to it. Finally got automated green science working.
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Sep 15, 2015 17:51
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Kenlon posted:I wouldn't go that far - in my second Bob's Mod test game, which only has about 60-70 hours on it, I'm having trouble holding back the biters with sniper turrets plus piercing ammo. I may have to start building lasers. Is your problem damage or rate of fire? As long as you upgrade bullet damage, bullet shooting speed, and sniper turret damage, you should be killing most biters in 1-2 shots with normal ammo. Upgrade your turrets to mk2 or mk3 for even more punch and shooting speed if there are still problems. Because of the massive multiplier on sniper turrets (2400% or something for mk1), small upgrades to bullets pay out massively. Also consider a double or triple wall of turrets - the range is such that you can easily saturate an area with overlapping turrets and kill every biter that approaches. You need to be killing them in 1-2 volleys though, so plan accordingly. It can also help to find the rally points for biters and place sniper turrets in range of them so that you get constant small attacks rather than huge waves.
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Sep 15, 2015 20:36
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Kenlon posted:If you're not going to go Full Isengard and build an enormous smoke belching death fortress, what's the point? I'm actually in the preparation stages of a modded Factorio Let's Play, featuring Bob's Mods. I'm 18 hours in and using RSO with default settings (extra biters, though). There aren't any resources to do that poo poo. I'm actually kind of sick of Factorio again. That's a problem I have with this game - I can't spend more than ~20 hours before I get bored of it, which isn't nearly enough to get to anything cool (I always quit around the time I get to robots).
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Sep 15, 2015 21:18
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Lorini posted:Thanks!! Don't worry, you'll get better with practice! Some of the screenshots you see might be intimidating, but realize that they aren't necessarily 'typical' play, they're often exceptional examples. Have you tried making a mega-bus to simplify your supply chain? Once you learn the basics of the bus, you can get some huge production chains going and still have a lot of room to perfect the subsections.
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Sep 15, 2015 21:40
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Don't worry, you'll get better with practice! Some of the screenshots you see might be intimidating, but realize that they aren't necessarily 'typical' play, they're often exceptional examples. That's what I'm trying to do now, I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGvXgP6lmLM and that was why I was asking about sandbox mode, I wanted to see if I could create it there. But that's not really a furnace is it?
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Sep 15, 2015 22:38
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Not really sure what you mean by not really a furnace. Have you played through the tutorial missions? They give you a pretty good idea of the mechanics of the game and then also give you some ideas on how to do things. I'm kind of torn on the idea of tutorials like that. On one hand yeah that's a ton of good advice from someone who's played a lot and understands what the end game is like. But on the other hand, part of the fun for me is discovering stuff on my own. I've been copying some bits and pieces and ideas from various things but I like the idea of implementing my own designs rather than someone else's. This also leads to watching videos and saying "UGH WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT YOU'RE SO DUMB" because they're not doing it my way, which is fine. I also really dislike aspects of the community (and this seems to be mostly some streamers and LPers) that say that doing something this way is correct and doing it some other way is wrong and stupid and how could you do such a thing you idiot. I think it's a little bit toxic because, to me, this is partly a game of discovery. Discovering a new way of doing something, a new way of solving a bottleneck you accidently created, finding an interesting and productive way to craft something, that's what's fun about this game. Part of the reason I don't really play competitive games, because I don't want to copy the meta to compete against the meta, I want to do my own thing and have fun. But then again that's just me.
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Sep 15, 2015 22:51
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I started playing this a few days ago and it's a pretty neat game. It is kind of daunting to get into. The basics are fine, but once you start getting to oil tech it's really unintuitive how to optimize stuff and biters are obnoxious hitting your big ol base from a million points. I feel like I want to pause, write down ingredients, and plan out positions ahead of time.
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Sep 15, 2015 22:56
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I really don't like oil in this game. I'm not sure how I'd change it, and at this point it'd be too weird to just take it out, but I really don't like it. Oil infrastructure is developed in a completely different way than everything else. While everything else is a slow incremental growth, oil brings you to this sudden wall that you have to scale all at once. If you try and incrementally grow oil you're just going to end up with a mess and only be able a few oil buildings. Granted I play at a pretty large scale, but I always end up planning for oil setups with 20-40 refineries and probably hundreds in total of chemical plants. I also don't like the fluid mechanics. Item movement mechanics are very transparent. You can easily see how fast a building is being fed raw materials, how fast it's producing them, where your production line is backing up, where it's being starved, etc etc. The belt movement itself is intuitive, you have space on a belt and items get put in that space and then they move at a certain speed. Fluid mechanics are none of that. You have little influence on how a building gets fed materials, you can't easily see how they're being output, you can't see at a glance where your pipes are at capacity or where they've run dry. You can't see how oil is moving or understand where and how to speed it up. It's just all... wrong.
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Sep 15, 2015 23:03
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FISHMANPET posted:I really don't like oil in this game. I'm not sure how I'd change it, and at this point it'd be too weird to just take it out, but I really don't like it. Oil infrastructure is developed in a completely different way than everything else. While everything else is a slow incremental growth, oil brings you to this sudden wall that you have to scale all at once. If you try and incrementally grow oil you're just going to end up with a mess and only be able a few oil buildings. Granted I play at a pretty large scale, but I always end up planning for oil setups with 20-40 refineries and probably hundreds in total of chemical plants. I also don't like the fluid mechanics. Item movement mechanics are very transparent. You can easily see how fast a building is being fed raw materials, how fast it's producing them, where your production line is backing up, where it's being starved, etc etc. The belt movement itself is intuitive, you have space on a belt and items get put in that space and then they move at a certain speed. Fluid mechanics are none of that. You have little influence on how a building gets fed materials, you can't easily see how they're being output, you can't see at a glance where your pipes are at capacity or where they've run dry. You can't see how oil is moving or understand where and how to speed it up. It's just all... wrong. Maybe you could do away with pipes entirely (except for water), and automatically barrel everything. "Basic" barrels would be free but only hold somewhere around 1-5 units of a fluid, then once you get fluid handling you can make iron barrels (which would hold 10 or 15) and add a 2nd upgrade for steel barrels (which would hold 25 like now or maybe a bit more). This takes away the wall, the spaghetti piping, and even lets you move materials around "by hand" to get advanced oil going. I'd just do this with oil and heavy/light products; leave the pipes in for acid, gas, and water.
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Sep 15, 2015 23:32
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Khorne posted:I started playing this a few days ago and it's a pretty neat game. It is kind of daunting to get into. The basics are fine, but once you start getting to oil tech it's really unintuitive how to optimize stuff and biters are obnoxious hitting your big ol base from a million points. I feel like I want to pause, write down ingredients, and plan out positions ahead of time. Search for the Negative Root tutorials on youtube, and Arumba is also a big youtube guy into Factorio. You really need to see it I think to get a sense of how to move forward. Also when you start a game, set the enemy to peaceful/very small starting area.
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Sep 15, 2015 23:44
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Dirk the Average posted:Also consider a double or triple wall of turrets - the range is such that you can easily saturate an area with overlapping turrets and kill every biter that approaches. You need to be killing them in 1-2 volleys though, so plan accordingly. It can also help to find the rally points for biters and place sniper turrets in range of them so that you get constant small attacks rather than huge waves. Oh, I am using double walls - it's just when they build up a wave of 50-60 behemoths with lots of little guys in support, it gets hairy. Within the range of my construction bots, it's not too bad, but my usual plan of putting small citadels out in the hinterlands to prevent recolonization has started to fail. KillHour posted:I'm 18 hours in and using RSO with default settings (extra biters, though). There aren't any resources to do that poo poo. I'm actually kind of sick of Factorio again. That's a problem I have with this game - I can't spend more than ~20 hours before I get bored of it, which isn't nearly enough to get to anything cool (I always quit around the time I get to robots). My general RSO settings involve going into the config.lua and setting the richness multiplier up (usually to 3), and setting all the richness dropdowns to Very Good. Then I set rarity/size as feels appropriate: iron/copper/stone are common, but not too big, coal is rare but in huge fields, etc. With Bob's Mods, there's a bunch more ores, so it can really lend itself to having to set up far-flung bases to exploit the 200k+ deposit of titanium/tungsten/gold that you've found. Lorini posted:That's what I'm trying to do now, I watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGvXgP6lmLM and that was why I was asking about sandbox mode, I wanted to see if I could create it there. But that's not really a furnace is it? That is a really, really bad setup. Never mix items on belts for smelting.
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Sep 16, 2015 00:16
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FISHMANPET posted:I really don't like oil in this game. I'm not sure how I'd change it, and at this point it'd be too weird to just take it out, but I really don't like it. Oil infrastructure is developed in a completely different way than everything else. While everything else is a slow incremental growth, oil brings you to this sudden wall that you have to scale all at once. If you try and incrementally grow oil you're just going to end up with a mess and only be able a few oil buildings. Granted I play at a pretty large scale, but I always end up planning for oil setups with 20-40 refineries and probably hundreds in total of chemical plants. I also don't like the fluid mechanics. Item movement mechanics are very transparent. You can easily see how fast a building is being fed raw materials, how fast it's producing them, where your production line is backing up, where it's being starved, etc etc. The belt movement itself is intuitive, you have space on a belt and items get put in that space and then they move at a certain speed. Fluid mechanics are none of that. You have little influence on how a building gets fed materials, you can't easily see how they're being output, you can't see at a glance where your pipes are at capacity or where they've run dry. You can't see how oil is moving or understand where and how to speed it up. It's just all... wrong. I definitely get what you mean with that. I wish that pipes worked a little bit nicer, in that you could make pipes next to each other NOT auto connect, so that you don't have to space out certain pipes or use tunnel pipes just so that they don't connect. Also nice would be a way to manually drain a pipe after you mess up and accidentally put some light oil into your natural gas pipe or something. I think that pipes by themselves are OK, and really the reasonable way to model fluids and gases, but I kind of wish that you could refine oil into diesel instead of solid fuel pellets. The only problem is that you'd need to have a different mechanic to fill up your car, train, tank, and boilers, but I think you could still abstract that nicely with fuel cans or something. At some point, I have to push out the walls in my base and redo all of my fluid system, because it's a giant ugly mess.
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Sep 16, 2015 00:21
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Kenlon posted:That is a really, really bad setup. Never mix items on belts for smelting. As far as I've been able to tell, anything Factorio where people say "best" or "ideal" are universally awful. Literally the only design I've been genuinely impressed with speed/efficiency-wise is the Rocket Defense Per Minute factory. On youtube especially, I see Boiler/Steam setups that are provably, empirically worse than the 10/14 setup with  people talking about power outputs that are ~80% of 10/14's.
Evilreaver fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 00:24
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Any suggestions then for a vid that shows a step by step way to set up a better furnace/bus? That one was helpful because the furnace didn't just 'appear' like all of the other video's I've watched.
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Sep 16, 2015 01:56
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Evilreaver what do you think of this design? It's a scalable high-productivity system based on generalizations of patterns from the rocket defense per minute factory. The components are pretty easy to copy into place for anything that benefits from productivity modules.   
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Sep 16, 2015 02:30
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Lorini posted:Search for the Negative Root tutorials on youtube, and Arumba is also a big youtube guy into Factorio. You really need to see it I think to get a sense of how to move forward. Also when you start a game, set the enemy to peaceful/very small starting area.
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Sep 16, 2015 03:38
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Phssthpok posted:Evilreaver what do you think of this design? It's a scalable high-productivity system based on generalizations of patterns from the rocket defense per minute factory. The components are pretty easy to copy into place for anything that benefits from productivity modules. Now, in Factorio, I feel there are two goals: productivity, and efficiency. (Also raw time-to-win but that's basically min-maxed efficiency) These designs are very Productive, they're clean and scalable and easy to use, which is all great. But it's pretty dang inefficient to truck resources from place to place, and you have a lot of material backing up on the belts or waiting for trains. I like my factories as efficient as possible, with belts filled full then drained empty and some factories starved at the end of each line, since that means I'm using every resource that comes in as fast as possible. At which point I add mines until the mine->forge backs up, then I add forges until forge->tier1 things backs up, etc... until the tierX->Launchpad backs up, at which point we add another launchpad and add mines. Essentially, I like to see my Ore-> Shuttle time be as small as possible. The longer something sits on a belt, in a box/bot or on a train, the saltier I get, especially if it's not moving right now  There's no wrong way to play Factorio (except to claim that your way is The Best). Personally I hate full-bus designs since they tend to have a lot of product backing up on the line; spent resources just sitting on a belt not getting used. Blasphemy! On the other hand, they're dead simple and easy to expand as needed to solve that issue, so  e: One thing that vexes me greatly: I have a method to empty a train car in 3 seconds, but you can't drop the timer lower than 5. That's two seconds per load WASTED!
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Sep 16, 2015 05:05
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Evilreaver posted:Essentially, I like to see my Ore-> Shuttle time be as small as possible. The longer something sits on a belt, in a box/bot or on a train, the saltier I get, especially if it's not moving right now I go the other way entirely - if I don't have enough materials (both raw and intermediate) to run my factory flat out for at least an hour with nothing coming in, something is horribly wrong. My ore buffers generally contain three to five hundred-thousand units at a time, and I build storage depots for intermediates with a minimum of 24 chests per material in the early game, scaling up as needed.. Needless to say, the profusion of materials and production chain complexity in Bob's Mods is pure heaven for me. quote:There's no wrong way to play Factorio (except to claim that your way is The Best). Personally I hate full-bus designs since they tend to have a lot of product backing up on the line; spent resources just sitting on a belt not getting used. Blasphemy! On the other hand, they're dead simple and easy to expand as needed to solve that issue, so A pure bus setup becomes insufficient pretty quickly, but having individual buses with 3-4 lanes wide for each resource at your various production subsections work well. And if you aren't going Full Isengard and filling the sky with pollution, you're doing it wrong. 
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Sep 16, 2015 09:43
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Khorne posted:I was watching the 3 hour 45 minute solo rocket launch video and it gave me lots of ideas. It's still an ordeal to do it yourself the first time unless you want to copy something exactly. It's fun though. Could you link to that? It sounds interesting.
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Sep 16, 2015 09:49
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Kenlon posted:And if you aren't going Full Isengard and filling the sky with pollution, you're doing it wrong. Like I said much earlier, when space platforms become A Thing, I will stop at nothing to have an enormous space presence, regardless of cost. I will mine the planet inside out for material! I will put the WHOLE PLANET in orbit if I have to!
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Sep 16, 2015 09:54
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Evilreaver posted:
Pictures please? I struggle with emptying trains onto belts fast enough.
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Sep 16, 2015 11:26
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Dunno-Lars posted:Pictures please? I struggle with emptying trains onto belts fast enough. The trick is to not empty them on to belts. (Specifically, you want to empty them into chests to take advantage of the stack size bonus, then empty the chests onto belts. The chests can keep unloading after the train leaves, after all.)
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Sep 16, 2015 11:51
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Dunno-Lars posted:Pictures please? I struggle with emptying trains onto belts fast enough. Empty them into chests first, then from chests to belt, it takes advantage of inserter stack size tech and doesn't need to wait for empty space on a belt. And since you can have up to 14 IIRC inserters working on a train car it'll get done pretty fast. Pyromancer fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 12:11
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This is that I'm unable to empty from the chests and to the belt fast enough as well. Sorted it out with my 4300 logistic robots and a bunch of requester chests emptying out onto the belt.
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Sep 16, 2015 13:08
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Lorini posted:Any suggestions then for a vid that shows a step by step way to set up a better furnace/bus? That one was helpful because the furnace didn't just 'appear' like all of the other video's I've watched. last I new the basic template for coal powered furnace belt is. |ore,ore| <- [furnace] -> |coal,coal| |plate,plate| |coal,coal |<- [furnace] ->|ore,ore| |ore,ore| P [furnace]<L |coal,coal| |plate,plate| |coal,coal| L>[furnace] P |ore,ore| belt: |item1,item2| inserter: -> long handle inserter: L> power pole: P The arrow points to where the inserter is taking items from. their just two furnaces in the template not 4. the power P are only placed as needed. The ores are all one type of ore. *edit stack this template vertically or horizontal till your ore belt empties or your plate belt fills. Hagop fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 14:42
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I usually start with something like this: You can do that with stone furnaces as well, but you can't do it with the wooden power poles. If you only have wooden power poles, you need to use underground belts to make room on the coal line for a power pole to power the inside inserters. The reason for this is that the wooden power pole only powers in a range of 2 squares, so power poles on the outside of the furnaces can't power the inserters on the opposite side of the furnace. Not sure exactly what the range is on the medium power poles (5 maybe?) but it's enough to power the inserters on both sides of the furnace. You can also only put in every other furnace, leaving a 2x2 space between each furnace where you put a wooden power pole, and once you get medium poles take out all the wood poles, put furnaces in the empty space, and install medium poles. It's hard to see at the very top of the image, but I feed it with a single blue belt of copper ore, which I split into two to feed each row of furnaces. They then output to seperate belts, each of the ending up being single sided. I run them both into a spliter with joins them into a full belt (and more quickly than running one belt into the side of another) There's another permutation of the same design that I actually use more often:  This has more coal laying around because I have two belts of coal instead of one, but it has the benefit of filling both sides of the belt without requiring a splitter. Ore is still split like above. Then there's even this:  Ore and coal aren't split, output is merged at the end like in the first example. And there are multiple permutations possible on this one. I could have ore on the outside with coal and plate on the inside, or coal on the outside and ore and plate on the inside. That earlier video could be fine with a slight modification. First, as is, it's not necessarily 100% bad, it's just that putting both coal and ore on the same belt limits how long you can make that furnace line before you'll run out of ore on the belts. It can also be a bad practice when you're first starting because I think you can more easily get confused about what a belt is or isn't supposed to be doing when it does two things. I've watched a video series (don't remember which one) where the guy put two items on the same belt and it screwed him up royally because he didn't plan well enough for it. Putting only ore on the belt allows a single belt to feed more furnaces. It's also being built with the idea of eventually being expanded into using the 3x3 electric furnaces rather than the 2x2 stone or steel furnaces. But to fix that video, run another belt on both outsides, and put coal on it. Use a long inserter to grab that far off coal. When electric furnaces come along, you demolish the coal line, demolish the one belt feeders into the central plate belt, reposition your output inserters, and then you can fill it up with electric furnaces.
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Sep 16, 2015 16:38
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Thanks everyone. The pictures are tough as I have a hard time seeing how to replicate what I see. That's on me, it's just the way I see things. I've googled Factorio furnaces as well, but still hard. However the sandbox mode that I just discovered may give me hope to be able to do this kind of stuff in game. I know it's a roadblock to progressing further in the game, I'd love to run some trains and build robots. Most times I give up when games are this hard for me, but for some reason Factorio represents a challenge I feel I need to overcome.
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Sep 16, 2015 17:26
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Lorini posted:Thanks everyone. The pictures are tough as I have a hard time seeing how to replicate what I see. That's on me, it's just the way I see things. I've googled Factorio furnaces as well, but still hard. However the sandbox mode that I just discovered may give me hope to be able to do this kind of stuff in game. I know it's a roadblock to progressing further in the game, I'd love to run some trains and build robots. Yeah, belts are the most fundamental thing to master. Once you have those skills, making more complex designs is easy. One thing I would caution about the above designs - when you're first starting out, don't go for maximum density. Give yourself a gap of 1-3 tiles between furnaces so that you can experiment and expand.
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Sep 16, 2015 18:03
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I should see if I can find some of my save games from when I first started playing, man there are some horrors in there.
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Sep 16, 2015 18:39
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Breetai posted:Could you link to that? It sounds interesting. I like the way he sets quite a few things up. It's very efficient in the sense that he doesn't belt stuff around everywhere. FISHMANPET posted:I should see if I can find some of my save games from when I first started playing, man there are some horrors in there.
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Sep 16, 2015 18:49
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Dunno-Lars posted:Pictures please? I struggle with emptying trains onto belts fast enough. While others have said "load them into boxes", they're probably loading them with Fast Inserters. It's a full 1.5 seconds faster to use a shitload of Longs:  This means you can empty a train in 3 sec rather than 4.5 sec... but trains still have a 5 second minimum hold time so resources don't come in any faster, really. It also means you have a Monster Storage buffer. Since there are trains on both sides of the belt, both sides get filled evenly and quickly. (Normally my forges could handle this, but this is a 'won' game and I let copper slack so iron is backing up) And while we're on the subject of forges:  The real thing to take away from this setup is that "The Fuel Line Is Closer", which means if you want to replace them with electric you can have your bots tear up the line and place the larger electrics without issue. I never really got around to it this game. (Also this game was before the new belt mechanics so you don't need corner-splitter setups anymore) Fun fact: Even when using coal as fuel... that whole setup, all 208 of them, uses one yellow belt that snakes back and forth, and still had coal left for the steel-making forges to feed from. Evilreaver fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 18:51
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Evilreaver posted:While others have said "load them into boxes", they're probably loading them with Fast Inserters. It's a full 1.5 seconds faster to use a shitload of Longs: Have you verified this in 0.12? I read somewhere that because of the changes made (inserters no longer reach to the center, fitting the full 7 inserters on each side) that they're actually equal now. Which is what it always should have been in theory. A long inserter moves at the same speed as a fast inserter, it just takes twice as long because it's moving 2 spaces rather than 1.
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Sep 16, 2015 18:56
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I have not, though the primary mechanic is that with more inserters you're getting more "inserter stack size", specifically the first 'burst' as soon as the train pulls in. If anything, I'd think that with the change both setups are sped up equally, though I haven't tested it. Ideally, I'd have trains stop at the mines for 1 sec to get one Burst, then come in to the station for 1 sec to get emptied with one Burst, then cycle out to get maximum poo poo movin'.
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Sep 16, 2015 19:04
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Just did a test in 0.12, and 14x fast inserters vs. 28x long-handed inserters comes up as completely equal: in 5 seconds they move 840 items, just over half a train car. Honestly I want to know how you got 3s load/unload times even in 0.11, that just doesn't seem possible to me.
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Sep 16, 2015 19:47
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But if a fast inserter takes 1 time unit to move 5 items (the max default stack bonus) then you're moving 5 items per time unit. If you have a long inserter that moves 5 items in 2 time units it moves 2.5 items per time units. If you now double up the inserters your back to 5 items per time unit. Unless you're talking about the "burst" for loading where the inserters are already extended into the space of the railcar? And if you're playing it that close to the vest then maybe my advice would be to lay off the coffee and chill out a bit E: But there's no wrong way to eat a reeses, you do you etc etc. That's the magic of this game.
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Sep 16, 2015 19:47
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