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evol262 posted:Some people say utilitarianism, some people say virtue ethics, some people say deontology. Especially because once you get into it, deontologists can be real Kants.
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Sep 15, 2015 22:20
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Inspector_666 posted:I think "Don't be the first to give a number" is the only hard and fast rule I would put for this. I'm not actually sure I agree with this. Anchoring is a pretty well understood psychological phenomenon and in theory the person who throws out the first number has a chance to anchor the negotiation at that higher number. If you throw out a number at the very high end of your expectations you set the baseline to begin negotiating there and will likely end up settling at a higher number than if you let the company throw out a first low offer that you have to negotiate up from. If you're still relatively junior and you throw out a very high number though you might price yourself out entirely, though generally you've got to be well out of their range for that to just shut down the conversation entirely, and in that case you probably didn't want the job anyway. I don't think there's any single hard, fast rule for this stuff though, it's going to vary from individual to individual and company to company, which doesn't sound like useful advice, but there's no magic bullet for getting better jobs and making more money, it's a combination of luck, talent, and personality and what works for one person won't necessarily work for another in a different situation.
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Sep 15, 2015 22:21
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22 Eargesplitten posted:Especially because once you get into it, deontologists can be real Kants. This guy Spinoza what's up.
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Sep 15, 2015 22:23
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CLAM DOWN posted:If it's ICBC it should be happening through their dispute system, not small claims... Manitoba. I sent some questions to the insurance company today (small claims paperwork doesn't seem like they are disputing the insurance company's decision), so I'm waiting to hear back from them.
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Sep 15, 2015 22:37
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mewse posted:Manitoba. I sent some questions to the insurance company today (small claims paperwork doesn't seem like they are disputing the insurance company's decision), so I'm waiting to hear back from them. While you're at it check to see if Autopac covers bumper-hitching injuries. 
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Sep 15, 2015 23:26
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I work at a SaaS. Random guy in Poland signs up for trial of our app. He immediately starts running some scripts against a broken url. We notice a spike, find out where it 's coming from, is and point the DNS record for histrialname.ourappname.com to 127.0.01. 
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Sep 15, 2015 23:34
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I'm going to throw this out there just to be incendiary, but more than a few times I've actually gotten people more than they were looking for. But it all comes from transparency: knowing where they are coming from, their knowledge base/skill level, MY knowledge base of the market and which companies over/under pay, and your target salary, plus knowing the competition for the job. If you have an agency recruiter/headhunter you trust, you're not losing anything by being open. You're establishing (hopefully) a mutually beneficial partnership and trust relationship. You're helping me do my job, a pretty big part of which is helping you get a job by knowing anything and everything about you and about the local market.
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Sep 16, 2015 01:13
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Dark Helmut posted:I'm going to throw this out there just to be incendiary, but more than a few times I've actually gotten people more than they were looking for. But it all comes from transparency: knowing where they are coming from, their knowledge base/skill level, MY knowledge base of the market and which companies over/under pay, and your target salary, plus knowing the competition for the job. Lets keep this simple. What specifically benefits you by knowing your job seekers current salary?
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Sep 16, 2015 01:22
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Sickening posted:Lets keep this simple. What specifically benefits you by knowing your job seekers current salary? If you come in and say "I need this much or I won't budge"? Absolutely nothing. And I won't call you unless I can do it. But most people aren't in that situation. People move for a variety of reasons, and all of them except one are not money. So understanding the full picture of where you're coming from and where you want to go helps me get you there, whether we get all the way to that ridiculous 20K raise you want in one leap or in two. And if you're way off base I'll tell you. But if you come in guarded and not willing to participate in what I consider a partnership, you'll find I mirror your effort. But the bottom line is a good recruiter at a respectable agency builds their reputation on their word and in the trust candidates put in them. Admittedly, I'm not the best at articulating my reasons why through this forum. I have face to face conversations with my candidates to talk about their lives and where they want to go. I then give them my opinion of the market and their position in it and we make a gameplan to achieve your goals. Incidentally, the quicker I get you there the more I get paid. Maybe us southerners are just more trusting than others. My region could totally be a factor.
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Sep 16, 2015 01:39
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It's the difference between the internal versus external recruiter; I'd trust an external one like you way more, too.
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Sep 16, 2015 01:46
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Dark Helmut posted:If you come in and say "I need this much or I won't budge"? Absolutely nothing. And I won't call you unless I can do it. Let's say you know of an open sysadmin position with a range of 60k-80k and you have three candidates who for the purposes of this exercise have similar skills and backgrounds and who all would be a good fit. One of the candidates made 30k in his last position. One made 65k. One will not disclose for you how much he made in his last position. How will the scenario for each of these candidates play out, and where in the range will they end up?
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Sep 16, 2015 02:13
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evobatman posted:Let's say you know of an open sysadmin position with a range of 60k-80k and you have three candidates who for the purposes of this exercise have similar skills and backgrounds and who all would be a good fit. One of the candidates made 30k in his last position. One made 65k. One will not disclose for you how much he made in his last position. How will the scenario for each of these candidates play out, and where in the range will they end up? External recruiters are oftentimes paid commission as a percentage of the salary of the person they place. So they're likely going to try to get you the max.
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Sep 16, 2015 02:15
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NippleFloss posted:I'm not actually sure I agree with this. Anchoring is a pretty well understood psychological phenomenon and in theory the person who throws out the first number has a chance to anchor the negotiation at that higher number. If you throw out a number at the very high end of your expectations you set the baseline to begin negotiating there and will likely end up settling at a higher number than if you let the company throw out a first low offer that you have to negotiate up from. If you say a number first and it is below the hiring parties max, you have limited yourself. If you say a number below their low end you you are limiting yourself even more, and potentially putting yourself under scrutiny.
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Sep 16, 2015 02:34
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NippleFloss posted:If you throw out a number at the very high end of your expectations you set the baseline to begin negotiating there Except that's not how it works. That number you threw out? It will only go lower, never higher. You, as the candidate set the anchor for the high end of the negotiation. The potential employer sets the anchor for the low end. Your goal is to get them to put a number out to define a floor. It can only go up. Their goal is to get you to put out a number and whittle you down from there. Unless you are absolutely desperate (foreclosure, no money for food, etc..) never give out a number first and never be afraid to walk away.
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Sep 16, 2015 02:52
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lampey posted:If you say a number first and it is below the hiring parties max, you have limited yourself. If you say a number below their low end you you are limiting yourself even more, and potentially putting yourself under scrutiny. Adversely, If they're willing to go as high as 80k and they throw 70k out there because you won't give them a number, it will be way harder to get their max than if you started things with 90k and they had to talk you down, or even 80k and they accepted. Like others have said though, it's not a black and white thing where one strategy wins all. You look at the situation and feel out the interaction, if it feels like they really want you there it's probably best to wait for a number and if it feels competitive it could be beneficial to talk first and aim a little higher than what you think you're worth.
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Sep 16, 2015 03:18
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Dark Helmut posted:If you come in and say "I need this much or I won't budge"? Absolutely nothing. And I won't call you unless I can do it. Thats one hell of a non-answer
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Sep 16, 2015 03:26
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psydude posted:Why don't you just lie. The point is, like many have already pointed out, it is none of their loving business. If they want to play hardball and try to break my balls they are welcome to try, but I am not playing along. I pretty much have been on the market for 2 years and had dozens of interviews until I finally took the job I was looking for last month. A job interview goes both ways, and if they are going to be jerks, I am done. There is a severe lack of talent in my market so I don't have tolerate anyone's bullshit. That being said, today was my second day at the new job, and I could not be happier. The culture and environment are awesome, and I actually look forward to going to work now where I dreaded getting up in the morning before. The right job was worth the pain and suffering of two lovely positions and all of the calls, interviews, and emails. 
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Sep 16, 2015 03:27
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evobatman posted:Let's say you know of an open sysadmin position with a range of 60k-80k and you have three candidates who for the purposes of this exercise have similar skills and backgrounds and who all would be a good fit. One of the candidates made 30k in his last position. One made 65k. One will not disclose for you how much he made in his last position. How will the scenario for each of these candidates play out, and where in the range will they end up? The 30 wouldn't happen. If someone is that far off yet still somehow qualified, there's something else keeping him down there. In my jaded eyes, that's a felony conviction, horrible body odor, or something. Make that 30K 50 instead and it's a plausible scenario. It's rare that 3 candidates have the exact same skill set at wildly varied prices, and more than likely their interview skills/personality will play a huge factor. There are just so many other factors too, company size, culture fit, benefits difference, commute distance, etc. But I'll try and play ball as much as I feel I can't answer this correctly. Assuming they are all pretty equal, my goal is to give them each a shot at bettering their situation, while not making any of them stand out. Mr. 50K is going to be my floor at $60K, a 20% raise which is pretty generous. $65K is going to get $70-75K, maybe 75 depending on how much it takes to have it make sense. The last guy... Well with any luck, I or someone on my team will have an idea what his exit company pays and we can ballpark it. But, the key point is here that I'm not going to stick my neck out for someone who's not playing ball with me. I'm not going to risk looking like a fool to my client (the one who pays me) by sending over a guy at $75K who has $55K skills, so I'm going to do my best to verify this guy via references (his or better yet, on my own) and make sure he's not full of poo poo. Because at the end of the day, trust is going to be my big issue with him and if he isn't trusting me enough to talk openly about where he is and where he wants to go, I'm not going to trust him without backdooring some references or something. Bottom line is he's not going to get MORE because he's refusing to tell me, and he might very well get less or just not get submitted.
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Sep 16, 2015 03:30
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go3 posted:Thats one hell of a non-answer Because there is no ONE answer. People are more than a salary number, and that salary number is just one of a dozen or more factors that make a job jump make sense. But my understanding of the market and where you're coming from and where you want to go helps me find a good fit for you and others. I'm not trying to tell you what to do. If you don't want to give out your salary, then don't. But it's information I use to help me do my job.
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Sep 16, 2015 03:33
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psydude posted:External recruiters are oftentimes paid commission as a percentage of the salary of the person they place. So they're likely going to try to get you the max. I have a slightly different opinion. A recruiter isn't going to try and get the max, they're going to try and get the best value for their time and effort. I'm probably going to screw up the compensation model here, but I think the basic premise should still hold. Suppose you have two candidates for a job that is going to pay 50K... or up to 60K if you work for it. You're going to get 10% of that amount as a bonus. If you disclose that you're currently making 30K, then 50K is a slam dunk, you're going to get $5000 because the candidate is definitely going to say yes. If you can get the pay up to 55K, that's an extra 500 bucks, but if you've got other jobs to line up, your priorities may be shifted. The candidate can say they want you to push for more, but you pretty much know they're full of it, they'll take the 50K. Now let's say the other candidate is currently making 30K and either lies and says they make more, or maybe they make up something about how they can't disclose their salary. If you think they might balk at 50K and only say yes to something in the 55-60K range, you're going to take that extra time to work for a higher wage. Instead of comparing a $5000 bonus to a $5500 bonus, you're thinking "If the client walks, I get zero, if I put in some extra time and really push for 60K, I get $6000." I'm not saying that this is something that's consciously being considered, but I've read that there's a comparable dynamic in real estate. Dr. Arbitrary fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 03:36
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When I made the jump from technician to sysadmin I totally screwed myself. The job application asked for a salary range and I lowballed myself so much that they offered me more than my high end. Ended up working out in the end. Now I'm at my next transition and actually had a really good interview today at what looks to pretty much be my dream job. Haven't negotiated salary/options yet, but I'd probably be content making what I am now plus decent options/bonuses. Here's to hoping that it's  for me soon.
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Sep 16, 2015 03:44
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I have a slightly different opinion. I'm reading this and just thinking how awesome it would be if I got 5K for every 50K person I placed. You have a point, but it doesn't take any extra time/effort to ask for more, which is very unlike real estate. Maybe an extra bullet point in my writeup. What I'm trying to do is find that magic $$ spot where it makes sense for the employer and the employee to pull the trigger. Where it gives my candidate the best shot at landing a job that makes sense for him and he's going to stay (at least a year) and do a good job which will keep my client coming back for more of my people.
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Sep 16, 2015 03:56
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I hope you don't feel like I'm ragging on you and your profession, I'm mostly just trying to illustrate that the recruiter is mostly on your side, it's still not a 100% thing so it's not completely unreasonable to be shy about disclosing a salary. I think if I felt like a recruiter was especially trustworthy, it'd be less of a problem for me to be more open.
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Sep 16, 2015 04:03
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mayodreams posted:The point is, like many have already pointed out, it is none of their loving business. If they want to play hardball and try to break my balls they are welcome to try, but I am not playing along. I pretty much have been on the market for 2 years and had dozens of interviews until I finally took the job I was looking for last month. A job interview goes both ways, and if they are going to be jerks, I am done. There is a severe lack of talent in my market so I don't have tolerate anyone's bullshit. idk, my current job is pretty awesome and they still asked me. Weren't even jerks about it. With that being said, congrats on your YOTJ.
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Sep 16, 2015 04:16
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Same, mine offered me a shitload more money than I was on, and I was already on a good salary. There's a severe lack of talent in most of IT, most sysadmins I've met IRL outside of my current company are retarded.
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Sep 16, 2015 04:20
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:I hope you don't feel like I'm ragging on you and your profession, I'm mostly just trying to illustrate that the recruiter is mostly on your side, it's still not a 100% thing so it's not completely unreasonable to be shy about disclosing a salary. Not at all. I agree that it's situational and as I've always maintained on here it's good to have long term partnerships with 2-3 good recruiters/agencies in your area. My point is more to illustrate the fact that a blanket "no" doesn't always apply and that it can actually help.
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Sep 16, 2015 04:26
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joe944 posted:When I made the jump from technician to sysadmin I totally screwed myself. The job application asked for a salary range and I lowballed myself so much that they offered me more than my high end. Ended up working out in the end. Dark Helmut posted:The 30 wouldn't happen. If someone is that far off yet still somehow qualified, there's something else keeping him down there. In my jaded eyes, that's a felony conviction, horrible body odor, or something. Make that 30K 50 instead and it's a plausible scenario. It's rare that 3 candidates have the exact same skill set at wildly varied prices, and more than likely their interview skills/personality will play a huge factor. There are just so many other factors too, company size, culture fit, benefits difference, commute distance, etc.
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Sep 16, 2015 04:27
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Yeah when I was interviewing for my first job as a network engineer the owner of the company asked me how much I was looking for. I gave him a number and he replied "Well, I want you to do some research on this position given the responsibilities we've talked about and make sure that the number you gave me is realistic when we sit down for the face to face." Turns out I was about 20k off. He agreed to the new amount and I wound up more than doubling my salary from my previous job.
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Sep 16, 2015 04:31
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Vulture Culture posted:
I could see how that could be true. My market is very small comparatively, 1M people in the metro area. But that's why you use me. I'd never let my people get low-balled like that, if for no other reason than it costs me money. Also I give a poo poo, so there's that. Dark Helmut fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 04:35
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I think there are multiple ways you could work with an external recruiter, which could color how much you want to disclose. If an external recruiter cold calls you off your LinkedIn and wants to know your currently salary as part of his process of to pitch you to a company, then I don't know. In that scenario they're working for the company more than they are for you and so as a negotiating tactic it could be better to not make the first move. On the other hand, and I think this is generally Dark Helmut's situation, for whatever reason you have an existing relationship with a recruiter (like Dark Helmut) that isn't tied to that recruiter pitching you for a specific job. Maybe it started with a cold call but you've kept in contact, or maybe you've approached the recruiter letting them know you're looking for something different. Part of that involves laying out your current situation: duties, titles, benefits, and pay. And then also what you're hoping for, again, duties, titles, benefits, pay. If you're making 70 the recruiter knows to not even bother you with a job that pays 50. And hopefully if you're making 70 they'll know it might still not be worth your time to move for 71. But then the trust comes in, that you're trusting that the recruiter won't find a job that should pay 100 that you're qualified and say "hey makes 70 now so he'd love 80 what do you think." But if you don't trust the recruiter in that kind of relationship enough to let them know what you have and what you want then why are you even bother to maintain a relationship with them where they'll be supposedly trying to help you out?
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Sep 16, 2015 04:44
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go3 posted:Thats one hell of a non-answer Dark Helmut posted:The 30 wouldn't happen. If someone is that far off yet still somehow qualified, there's something else keeping him down there. With all the tip toeing this is basically as close to the answer as we are going to get. He needs your currently salary so he can judge your quality and look for red flags. So yeah, nothing that benefits you. Sickening fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 05:12
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Dark Helmut posted:The 30 wouldn't happen. If someone is that far off yet still somehow qualified, there's something else keeping him down there... They could be moving from a lower cost area. Hired out as an intern, or without a degree and then never got a substantial raise. They could have been hired out with the promise of a future raise or training and it never happened. They could have been a founder at a startup or worked at a small company with or without equity that never panned out. They could work for a non profit, or just a company they really love for way below market rate. They could have accepted the first offer they got without really understanding the market. They might just be poor at negotiating salary. There are a ton of different reasons why someone is making below market rate that has no impact on their job performance. Responses like this are exactly the reason you should not tell your current salary to a recruiter or potential employer. Have a realistic goal for what it would take to leave your current job when talking to a recruiter. For some people that will be less than they are making now. The recruiter should only submit you to positions in your salary range. When negotiating with a potential employer salary and benefits should be discussed after both sides know it is a good fit and let them say the first number.
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Sep 16, 2015 05:22
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flosofl posted:Except that's not how it works. That number you threw out? It will only go lower, never higher. That's why you start with an artificially high range. And that's literally how anchoring works. The initial number sets a psychological anchor that colors future interactions. The question is whether it works in a scenario like salary negotiation where multiple individuals are involved in determining the desirable pay rate. Probably depends on the company and how hiring is handled. But the ability to artificially influence the numeric value that people apply to something, whether it's he price of a house or a car or the year the Congo was founded, by introducing your own anchor number is well documented. Anecdotally I prefer to name a number first because it prevents me from wasting my time talking to people who aren't going to pay me anything near what I want.
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Sep 16, 2015 05:27
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lampey posted:They could be moving from a lower cost area. Hired out as an intern, or without a degree and then never got a substantial raise. They could have been hired out with the promise of a future raise or training and it never happened. They could have been a founder at a startup or worked at a small company with or without equity that never panned out. They could work for a non profit, or just a company they really love for way below market rate. They could have accepted the first offer they got without really understanding the market. They might just be poor at negotiating salary. There are a ton of different reasons why someone is making below market rate that has no impact on their job performance. Thank you, you said it much better than I would have.
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Sep 16, 2015 06:42
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In other news, my coworker left his pitcher of soylent in the fridge and is going to be out until Friday.
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Sep 16, 2015 07:19
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Start a blog and make sure to chain the fridge shut, you don't want that stuff running around the office without supervision over the weekend.
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Sep 16, 2015 14:17
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lampey posted:Responses like this are exactly the reason you should not tell your current salary to a recruiter or potential employer. Well if I'm reading Dark Helmut correctly he would've actually sat down and talked to you at length to learn your history and would know that you came from a lower earning area and then be able to submit you at a more reasonable rate to potential employers. Not every recruiter out there is a Robert Half moron.
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Sep 16, 2015 14:40
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We don't do nuance here. Or have the ability to stand up for ourselves.
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Sep 16, 2015 14:47
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BaseballPCHiker posted:Well if I'm reading Dark Helmut correctly he would've actually sat down and talked to you at length to learn your history and would know that you came from a lower earning area and then be able to submit you at a more reasonable rate to potential employers. Not every recruiter out there is a Robert Half moron. I'll leave it at this so we can stop the salary derail: My goal is to find that happy point where what makes sense for you coincides with what makes sense for my client, AKA a good fit for both sides. I will always WANT that number to be higher, but my focus is filling the position so I'm not going to artificially inflate the number but I'm also certainly not going to DEFLATE it. If I want you to lower your number, I'm drat well going to have a good reason and if it doesn't make sense for your situation I'm not going to proceed. My goal here is not to tell you "tell all recruiters your salary" but to provide a counterpoint to the vocal bunch that say "never tell anyone your salary because they will rear end rape your wallet". Mutually beneficial talent/recruiter trust relationships can exist. Play on, players...
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Sep 16, 2015 16:23
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lampey posted:Have a realistic goal for what it would take to leave your current job when talking to a recruiter. For some people that will be less than they are making now. The recruiter should only submit you to positions in your salary range. When negotiating with a potential employer salary and benefits should be discussed after both sides know it is a good fit and let them say the first number. So what is a 'realistic goal' for you? +10-15%? Your post makes it sound like you're holding yourself back by setting "realistic goals" according to what regular companies / HR think your growth rate should be. Dark Helmut referred me to another guy in his company for my region. I disclosed my salary and what my goal was. I was in a contract position. He got me a full time gig with 35% increase in pay and benefits. It took a few tries to find the right company, but he worked with me and I will most definitely work with him again if I ever decide to leave this dream job he landed me. edit: DH - Don't forget if you're in my area, that offer to buy you a drink is still out there.
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Sep 16, 2015 16:26
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