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Just speaking for myself here, but I think MGS3's story has more problems than just "making too much sense" or whatever.
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Sep 16, 2015 19:53
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lol mgs3 is perhaps tied with dark souls as the perfect game of time
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Sep 16, 2015 19:55
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Snak posted:Literally MGS3's only "flaw" is that it's a pretty straightforward, conventional spy story. This is part of the reason it's so emotionally effective, i think. The characters are the most relateable MGS characters have ever been. But compared to the craziness of all the other games, its story seems really "basic". There's a fat guy who shoots bees at you and an insane cosmonaut who turns into a giant flaming skull. Also a gun that has infinite ammo because the ammo belt is in the shape of an infinity symbol, and they literally say this in-game as if it makes sense. There's plenty of craziness to balance out the straightforwardness. MGS3 owns and anyone who doesn't count it as their favorite is wrong.
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Sep 16, 2015 19:59
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Raxivace posted:I like MGS1 and especially MGS2's stories the most. MGS3 is fine though its narrative is harmed by not trying to do anything especially ambitious for most of the game. PO is alright, didn't care much for the stories in MGS4, PW, or MGRR, and I liked MGSV's story quite a bit personally. I actually like Portable Ops's story more than most as it establishes a lot of the themes that the series begins to pick up on. Nail Rat posted:There's a fat guy who shoots bees at you and an insane cosmonaut who turns into a giant flaming skull. There's plenty of craziness to balance out the straightforwardness. Well I guess I am wrong then, because I felt that the game played worse than other stealth games, even when it was first released. blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 20:00
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Snak posted:Literally MGS3's only "flaw" is that it's a pretty straightforward, conventional spy story. This is part of the reason it's so emotionally effective, i think. The characters are the most relateable MGS characters have ever been. But compared to the craziness of all the other games, its story seems really "basic". I don't think it's any more emotionally effective personally than MGS1 or MGS2, though that isn't to say it is ineffective. I just find the whole "scene" theme to be far less substantive than the metafictional aspects of MGS2, and it doesn't have the strong sense of aesthetics in MGS1 either. Ruddha posted:lol mgs3 is perhaps tied with dark souls as the perfect game of time I like Dark Souls a lot but its pretty flawed, particularly with communicating information to the player. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 20:04
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Snak posted:In that thread, someone brings up how in MGS2, Ocelot steals RAY and escapes, which is not resolved. Pretty similar to how Eli steals Sahelanthropus and escapes, which is not resolved. ... Huh. That wasn't intentional I'm sure but I wonder if that was the justification they had for such a dangling plot thread. Raxivace posted:I like Dark Souls a lot but its pretty flawed, particularly with communicating information to the player. That's another case of something that is objectively 'bad' design that people consider an important part of the game, oddly enough. People actually get upset at the idea of Souls games changing that. The idea being that the act of discovery and the social aspects are a value-add.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:05
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Ruddha posted:lol mgs3 is perhaps tied with dark souls as the perfect game of time And just like Dark Souls, MGS3 is a really good game with some flaws in storytelling.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:06
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Snak posted:In that thread, someone brings up how in MGS2, Ocelot steals RAY and escapes, which is not resolved. Pretty similar to how Eli steals Sahelanthropus and escapes, which is not resolved. It is certainly similar but I think a worthwhile difference is that MGS2 is Raiden's story, which we see to completion. Liquid is only tangential to that because he's Snake's nemesis, whereas Raiden's nemesis is Solidus. Eli and Sahelanthropus, on the other hand, are significant parts of Venom's story. Like ImpAtom says, I doubt this was an intentional mirroring. Raxivace posted:I don't think it's any more emotionally effective personally than MGS1 or MGS2. I just find the whole memes theme to be far less substantive than the metafictional aspects of MGS2, and it doesn't have the strong sense of aesthetics in MGS1 either. Learn your Kojima better, son. Meme is MGS2's theme.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:10
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Blah, I meant scene, not meme. Derp.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:13
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Snak posted:In that thread, someone brings up how in MGS2, Ocelot steals RAY and escapes, which is not resolved. Pretty similar to how Eli steals Sahelanthropus and escapes, which is not resolved. The Eli thing was supposed to be resolved, they just ran out of time/money or Konami didn't want Snake to have to kill child soldiers or something. It's like half finished and on the collectors disc. Ocelot escaping was to set up MGS4; there's not supposed to be a sequel to MGS5 though there certainly will be.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:14
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Raxivace posted:I like Dark Souls a lot but its pretty flawed, particularly with communicating information to the player. cargohills posted:And just like Dark Souls, MGS3 is a really good game with some flaws in storytelling. no the story telling is perfect and the kind of communication is perfect
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Sep 16, 2015 20:14
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ImpAtom posted:That's another case of something that is objectively 'bad' design that people consider an important part of the game, oddly enough. People actually get upset at the idea of Souls games changing that. The idea being that the act of discovery and the social aspects are a value-add. I guess I just wish Dark Souls were slightly more self-contained. I get that appeal of working together to solve stuff, though that's very short-term. In 20 years if people want to see what the big deal about Dark Souls was, they'll probably just end up having to read a wiki or some equivalent in the future to learn important concepts in the game, like the poise stat being important to a certain early game boss. Online components losing value over time too isn't a problem unique to Dark Souls though, at least on consoles. Ruddha posted:no the story telling is perfect and the kind of communication is perfect I don't want to get too off-topic, but most of the storytelling is done through needlessly vague, non-diegetic Wikipedia articles. It's kind of lame. The NPC sidequests mostly own though.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:22
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ImpAtom posted:Well, keep in mind that Big Boss only succeeded on his first mission because his mentor let him and he had tons of help, whereas Snake did it with his mentor actively betraying him and trying to gently caress him over. Solid didn't even start Operation Intrude with a gun. That would've been my first clue that maybe my superiors didn't expect me to succeed.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:27
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I suppose Myst and Quest for Glory are flawed games too? Dark Souls only problems are in the menu interface.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:27
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...and the lack of instruction/communication and the dull story and the terrible performance on PC. You're allowed to recognise that something does not need to be perfect to be good.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:30
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You had The Boss, then Big Boss, but they've hovered around that one for decades. Surely after what Solid did in MG1-MGS4 he'd be eligible for a codename upgrade besides Old Snake... maybe like Solid Boss or something. He got no codename respect. He didn't even get any tribal nicknames like Saladin or Shalashaska.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:32
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Snak posted:I suppose Myst and Quest for Glory are flawed games too? Dark Souls only problems are in the menu interface. Myst and Quest for Glory are very far from perfect, so, yes? Even at the time, they were seen as needlessly obtuse or lacking sufficient information in game.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:33
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Story ranking of the main series goes 3 > 1 = 2 > 4 > Peace Walker > V. But this is all near the top. V might be the bottom but it's still better than 90% of games. Also, this is ranked purely on story.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:33
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Solid Snake never went and started his own PMC though, he just became an alcoholic dog musher in Alaska.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:34
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Snak posted:I suppose Myst and Quest for Glory are flawed games too? Dark Souls only problems are in the menu interface. I haven't played either of those so I can't comment too much. What I understand of Myst though is that you find journals and other diegetic writing throughout the game that would actually exist in that game's world, and use those to solve puzzles. In Dark Souls, what are the paragraphs describing random helmets I'm picking up off of dead Hollows? Are they written down somewhere? Where is that information even coming from? Myst is also advertised as a puzzle game, right? I think some level of obtuseness is actually expected there. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 20:35
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I'm surprised about the unpopularity of MGSV's story. I guess I'd like if there was more to it, but I think (barring maybe some scenes in MGS4) that it's cutscenes are the absolute peak of the series. Previous games in the series often had their cutscenes drag on for far too long and they weren't shot very interestingly.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:36
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Snak posted:I suppose Myst and Quest for Glory are flawed games too? Dark Souls only problems are in the menu interface. Do you remember that loving mine car? Or the puzzle where the light switch is the button on a dial that corresponds with the direction of a lighthouse for some unknown reason. Now Riven, masterpiece. But myst relied too much on video game puzzle logic.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:43
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cargohills posted:I'm surprised about the unpopularity of MGSV's story. I guess I'd like if there was more to it, but I think (barring maybe some scenes in MGS4) that it's cutscenes are the absolute peak of the series. Previous games in the series often had their cutscenes drag on for far too long and they weren't shot very interestingly. I think a lot of the complaints I've seen come from people who wanted MGSV to be Big Boss Makes Outer Heaven from MG1 and Goes Full Grimdark Villain: The Game. The quality of the game's cutscenes basically has no bearing on that complaint, because the story they ultimately wanted isn't the one they got. Those aren't all of the complaints, mind you. The most valid ones have to do with the story being incomplete--not just that it feels incomplete, but that we know it's incomplete. There are plot threads that are set up and never resolved, and it isn't just that they're never resolved, but that there was a bunch of planned stuff that didn't make it into the game that would've resolved it. While that doesn't really affect the complaints from people who wanted to see Big Boss, as /v/ puts it, "go nuclear," it's the root of a lot of people's disappointment (my own mild disappointment included). (Seriously, though. I drop in and read /v/ every now and again because I clearly have no self-respect and I'm baffled by how literally they appear to have taken that one "Nuclear" trailer.)
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Sep 16, 2015 20:44
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cargohills posted:I'm surprised about the unpopularity of MGSV's story. I guess I'd like if there was more to it, but I think (barring maybe some scenes in MGS4) that it's cutscenes are the absolute peak of the series. Previous games in the series often had their cutscenes drag on for far too long and they weren't shot very interestingly. Snake being a silent protagonist and not a gruff but quirky super spy-soldier is a big change that I don't think is for the better (but it works as support for the wholly-unnecessary twist). Also the fact that the game really just ends without a climax is a big point against it, and is almost certainly due to all the cut content (mission 51 which was supposed to be the end boss to chapter 2, then there was supposed to be a chapter 3 we know less about). Also Ocelot is just weird. I don't like Troy Baker voicing him, not just because of the accent, but he just does a bad job in a lot of places. That recitation of the "you're pretty good" speech from MGS3 he gave to some random DD soldier was done flatly and was just really bad. I usually like Baker but this was the first Ocelot I didn't think sounded/acted cool. quote:(Seriously, though. I drop in and read /v/ every now and again because I clearly have no self-respect and I'm baffled by how literally they appear to have taken that one "Nuclear" trailer.) I hope this doesn't lump me in with them, but I actually was hoping for a lot more in terms of how Big Boss literally became a villain, because they did plenty to set it up in Peace Walker. He created his own powerful Metal Gear and private army with no allegiance to anyone, started deploying all this stuff for the good of no one but his own organization (getting GMP and new cardboard box specs by murdering dudes with his metal gear), built nukes, and decided he disagreed with the Boss and would fight for himself, not for any government or ideal. That sets him up as a supervillain pretty well. All that was left was to see the process unfold, and we didn't. The fact we find out at the end that all that stuff happened during the game, but was done by the real Big Boss while we were not playing him, almost makes it worse. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 20:46
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cargohills posted:I'm surprised about the unpopularity of MGSV's story. I guess I'd like if there was more to it, but I think (barring maybe some scenes in MGS4) that it's cutscenes are the absolute peak of the series. Previous games in the series often had their cutscenes drag on for far too long and they weren't shot very interestingly. The cutscenes themselves are amazing, camerawork is off the hook good but the story is the main problem. The theme of race or other taboo subjects that Kojima mentioned don't appear in the game. There are holes in the plot that are not inconsistencies but actual holes where the story should be. It's pretty clear they just ran out of time and funds. Nail Rat posted:Also Ocelot is just weird. I don't like Troy Baker voicing him, not just because of the accent, but he just does a bad job in a lot of places. That recitation of the "you're pretty good" speech from MGS3 he gave to some random DD soldier was done flatly and was just really bad. I usually like Baker but this was the first Ocelot I didn't think sounded/acted cool. Ocelot doesn't do anything in the story apart from interrogating a few people. Other than that he's just there to give you tips.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:52
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Ocelot's function in MGSV, hilariously, is to be the voice of reason counterpart to Miller's paranoid insanity.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:53
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Terminally Bored posted:Ocelot doesn't do anything in the story apart from interrogating a few people. Other than that he's just there to give you tips. Yeah but I'm saying when he does talk or do something, it's usually not done very well. He may as well not be in this game if they weren't going to care enough to at least make him give off the air of being a cool badass he has in every other game in the series, including the Portable Ops ending.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:53
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It's bizarre seeing him as a friendly Sam Elliot guy. There needed to be a base invasion scene where he whips out his guns and kills XOF enemies with ricochets, just for old time's sake. I also just realized: Venom smokes Phantom Cigars as yet another giveaway that he's not the real deal. At the end of The Truth, Big Boss gets his real cigars.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:55
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Nail Rat posted:Yeah but I'm saying when he does talk or do something, it's usually not done very well. He may as well not be in this game if they weren't going to care enough to at least make him give off the air of being a cool badass he has in every other game in the series, including the Portable Ops ending.  He has very little relevance to the plot.
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Sep 16, 2015 20:59
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Do you remember that loving mine car? Or the puzzle where the light switch is the button on a dial that corresponds with the direction of a lighthouse for some unknown reason. Electromax posted:You had The Boss, then Big Boss, but they've hovered around that one for decades. Surely after what Solid did in MG1-MGS4 he'd be eligible for a codename upgrade besides Old Snake... maybe like Solid Boss or something. He got no codename respect. He didn't even get any tribal nicknames like Saladin or Shalashaska.
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Sep 16, 2015 21:08
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Terminally Bored posted:Ocelot doesn't do anything in the story apart from interrogating a few people. Other than that he's just there to give you tips. He does plenty, actually. It's just all behind the scenes where Venom can't see it. Hell, he's technically still playing a double agent. Just like he is in every game. Best part is, unless you're paying attention you'll never notice it. Because for once Ocelot is working for you. Of course he's not going to tell you that he's basically using you as a gigantic target for his real employer. It's pretty loving hilarious that he's basically the sane one in the Kaz-Venom Snake-Ocelot trio though.
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Sep 16, 2015 21:09
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Probably the best Ocelot thing in the entire game is the Quiet interrogation. KAZ: "What if she's a spy?" OCELOT: "What if I'm a spy?" It's like, oh Ocelot, you so Ocelot.  :bigtran:
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Sep 16, 2015 21:12
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Raxivace posted:Ocelot's function in MGSV, hilariously, is to be the voice of reason counterpart to Miller's paranoid insanity. This kept making me think that Ocelot was going to turn out to be some kinda double agent at the end, since really all Ocelot was doing was letting XOF / Cipher hopefuls back into their waiting arms... Quiet and Huey in particular. Plus, Ocelot reached out to Zero for the whole Venom Snake scheme to begin with if I recall correctly... But no, nothing ever really came of Ocelot's historically two-faced presence.
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Sep 16, 2015 21:16
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Erata posted:This kept making me think that Ocelot was going to turn out to be some kinda double agent at the end, since really all Ocelot was doing was letting XOF / Cipher hopefuls back into their waiting arms... Quiet and Huey in particular. Plus, Ocelot reached out to Zero for the whole Venom Snake scheme to begin with if I recall correctly... But no, nothing ever really came of Ocelot's historically two-faced presence. Ocelot did what he was supposed to do by being two faced at the beginning. He got the real Big Boss out of the hospital and set up Venom to basically rampage through XOF/Cipher. After that all he was there for was for management efforts and to ensure that Venom's memories didn't come back by making sure he thought he was Big Boss. He's still a traitor in the sense that he's using Venom Snake and the Diamond Dogs. It's just that he somehow took being two-faced even further than in the previous games. He's a traitor that's rooting for Venom and Big Boss at the same time. And even with that the poor western obsessed nerd couldn't resist dressing up like some sort of modern day cowboy. Because with how hosed up Venom's head was how was he to know what Ocelot looked like? 
Archonex fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 21:19
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Archonex posted:He does plenty, actually. It's just all behind the scenes where Venom can't see it. Hell, he's technically still playing a double agent. Just like he is in every game. That's exactly why show not tell is one of the most important rules in writing. I was going to ask about the plot-important stuff he actually did and you mentioned hypnotising himself to believe Venom was BB. I still don't think him contributing to that stupid twist (and MGS2 ripoff at that) was good in any way.
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Sep 16, 2015 21:23
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Terminally Bored posted:That's exactly why show not tell is one of the most important rules in writing. This is where the cassette system of story delivery falls short. It works great for dry deliveries of certain lines. But that was something that could have been added in as a cut scene in the post game. Then again people bitched about the cutscenes in MGS4. So I guess this is what they get. Plus, the game pretty obviously isn't finished.
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Sep 16, 2015 21:25
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Do you remember that loving mine car? Or the puzzle where the light switch is the button on a dial that corresponds with the direction of a lighthouse for some unknown reason. Nakar posted:IIRC both of those puzzles are in the Selenetic Age where the entire idea is that things operate on sound cues; the mine car takes a while to do but it tells you outright if you're on the correct path. People had the same argument about the water pipes in Channelwood but if you listen carefully you can hear whether water is flowing through them. If anything Myst's obtuseness was part of the genius of its minimalist interface and most of the things you could do made sense given the things the game allowed you to explore and mess with. Not to say Riven didn't do some things better, but if Myst has flaws I don't think it's in puzzle design, especially if you're only fingering a couple puzzles. Stuff like turning the fortress in Mechanical, the pipes in Channelwood, and the electrical/pump system in Stoneship were at least logical, and the antennae in Selenetic made sense once you understood it was all audio-based and the visuals didn't matter. Nothing says masterpiece quite like having to decipher an encoded base 5 number system- unless it's the easier base 6 system that appeared incidentally in one of the sequels.
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Sep 16, 2015 21:32
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Nail Rat posted:There's a fat guy who shoots bees at you and an insane cosmonaut who turns into a giant flaming skull. Also a gun that has infinite ammo because the ammo belt is in the shape of an infinity symbol, and they literally say this in-game as if it makes sense. There's plenty of craziness to balance out the straightforwardness. There's plenty of wackiness in MGS3, but it's story is straightforward. You could take out all of the wacky elements and the story would make just as much sense as a cold-war thriller that took place in the real world. This is literally not true of any other MGS game. I said in the other MGSV thread, while listening to all the tapes fleshes out the characters and story quite a bit, it's not much of a narrative experience. It feel similar to watching a 90 minute TV version of a 5 hour epic film and then getting on wikipedia and learning about everything so it makes more sense. Yes the whole story is great, but the delivery is still not great.
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Sep 16, 2015 21:40
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I wish I could go back in time and tell myself a few weeks after MGSV was out I thought Kiefer was a great snake and didnt have half as many spoken lines as he should. My loving head would explode. And I'm the guy who would pay too much for a david hayter voice DLC.
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Sep 16, 2015 21:41
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I wish I could go back in time and tell myself a few weeks after MGSV was out I thought Kiefer was a great snake and didnt have half as many spoken lines as he should. My loving head would explode. Considering how few lines he had, I wish they had had Hayter voice Ishmael in the Truth mission. I thought Keifer was great and had no complaints about his delivery, just that he didn't loving talk like at all. Half the time I heard him on tapes I didn't realize it was Boss because 90% of the tapes are just Ocelot and Miller arguing.
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Sep 16, 2015 21:45
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