Attorney at Funk posted:

What's more oWoD than letting memes gestate until they're accepted as fact, though?

Ferrinus posted:

Bedlamdan posted:

That doesn't even work out, because the point of the ending is to establish the memes persisted.

Dammit Who? posted:

is this book out of layout yet

Hugoon Chavez posted:

Yes, six times already!

Flavivirus posted:

But seriously, it's now at CCP for approval, which tends to be the final step before sending the PDF out.

Dammit Who? posted:

Rad, thanks. See you guys at Christmas*.


*actual irl christmas

Hugoon Chavez posted:

What year though.

Gilok posted:

768.

SunAndSpring posted:

So, you guys think that the finished PDF will drop by the end of the month?

Also please tell me they realized Crafting was bad and made it not bad.

Ferrinus posted:

So the accuracy penalty compounded with the parry loss means that heavy weapons, even heavy artifact weapons, are a newbie trap, right?

Like if everyone was guaranteed to hit they're basically on par with other kinds of weapons, but if you assume maxed stats on everyone then whether or not various charms are in play it ends up at like a ~50% chance for a medium swing to connect versus a ~30% chance for a heavy swing to connect.

Kaza42 posted:

Not really, no. Since Hungry Tiger only works against crashed enemies now, your threshold successes are 1:1 bonus damage. So if you are guaranteed to hit, weapons (I'l use the numbers for artifacts for this, but it works out the same) have an effective damage of (accuracy/2)+base damage. A Light Artifact Weapon has accuracy 5 and damage 10, for an effective damage of 12.5. Heavy weapons have accuracy 1 and damage 14, for a 14.5 effective.
From my in-play experience (standard disclaimers about different groups building differently and anecdotes not being data), most attacks hit regardless of weapon weight. I personally feel that the defense bonus and higher reliability make light weapons better, but if so it's a pretty marginal difference. I certainly wouldn't call any of them a Newbie Trap, since there is a difference between a trap option and a slightly less optimal option.

Ferrinus posted:

That's what I used to think, until I did the math and found out that you are not, at all, guaranteed to hit.

The problem is that heavy weapons have about the same average damage as medium ones - maaaaaybe a little better - but that marginal advantage against easy enemies looks way, way worse than a dramatically increased chance to whiff on hard enemies.

Ferrinus posted:

That's what I used to think, until I did the math and found out that you are not, at all, guaranteed to hit.

The problem is that heavy weapons have about the same average damage as medium ones - maaaaaybe a little better - but that marginal advantage against easy enemies looks way, way worse than a dramatically increased chance to whiff on hard enemies.

Weapon Rebalance posted:

Weapon rebalance: Medium Melee Artifacts gain Defensive* tag, Heavy Melee Artifacts gain Relentless* tag.

---

New Weapon Tags:

*Defensive: When Flurrying a Full Defense action, no longer takes a Defense penalty, nor a penalty to defensive dice pools.

*Relentless: Automatic initiative is now granted on hit or miss, with a miss value equal to half the weapon's Overwhelming value, rounded up. Automatic initiative on hit is still +1.

Kaza42 posted:

Relentless would lead to the unusual case of hitting and only dealing 0-1 damage, and realizing you would have gained more initiative on a miss. I like the idea, but could use a tweak. Either lower the automatic initiative on a miss, or add a minimum initiative gain on a hit maybe?

Flavivirus posted:

Nah, the weapon would still have overwhelming 5 giving its hits a minimum of 5 damage. At least as far as I can tell - not sure where that "automatic initiative is still +1" thing comes from.

Kaza42 posted:

Relentless would lead to the unusual case of hitting and only dealing 0-1 damage, and realizing you would have gained more initiative on a miss. I like the idea, but could use a tweak. Either lower the automatic initiative on a miss, or add a minimum initiative gain on a hit maybe?

Stallion Cabana posted:

I would say it's almost certainly gonna be before the end of the year.

Craft isn't going to change, they have been pretty adamant about that, so I doubt it. Unless they did. You can never tell because one of Holden's favorite things is the double whammy of 'No one has thought about this more then me and Hatewheel' and 'Haha look at these people working with super outdated versions of the game.'

Transient People posted:

A) That increased damage is more valuable than it looks, because Heavy Weapons are both more likely to have leftover damage after Soak and have a higher Overwhelming rating, which is immensely valuable

quote:

B) If you want to fix it anyways, this particular problem has already been solved.

Ferrinus posted:

Taken into account. It's not worth hitting 30% rather than 60% of the time when the stakes are high.

Nessus posted:

I thought the issue with Craft wasn't so much that it keeps you from making a cool sword as that it provides some kind of super complex Pachinko machine of an XP system and converts just about everything you do into making a sword because we gotta have craftables in our roguelike RPG experience nowadays. Meanwhile the "Sorcerous Projects" system is apparently good and could easily be applied to making the Sword of a Thousand Truths.

Transient People posted:

This shouldn't be the case at all, though. Assuming a standard maxed out pool (dex 5, melee 5, specialty 1, artifact weapon), a heavy weapon has even odds of hitting a Defence of 7, the highest you can get (and only for Parry), if you stunt at all. Against Dodge, your odds are even better than that because it caps one point lower and requires the use of Drifting Leaf Elusion to equalize. Or are you assuming charm use here? Because that should pretty much always favor attackers over defenders, barring some tricky charms like Hail Shattering Practice.

me posted:

if you assume maxed/equal stats, medium vs. heavy artifact weapons, and heavy artifact armor, and full excellencies, and like excellent strike + hail-shattering practice on both sides, you're looking at

Medium: 22 dice + 1autosuccess, 17 raw damage with overwhelming 4, parry 12, soak 16
Heavy: 20 dice + 1autosuccess, 19 raw damage with overwhelming 5, parry 11, soak 16

if the attacker gets to reroll 1s but loses a success for every 2, then your expected value per die is uhh, 4/9ths? (+5/9 for 7,8,9,10,10, -1/9 for the 2) so on average, the medium guy is scoring 10.7... successes, and his damage starts at 4 and only increases past that if he gets 16 successes or more. the heavy guy is scoring 8.8... successes, but rolling 5 damage dice on any hit at all, but he only starts getting more than minimum damage dice on a hit with 15 net successes or better

according to anydice.com, medium has a ~52.58% chance to hit heavy, while heavy has a ~33.05% chance to hit medium. heavy has a 43.22% chance to hit himself. 11% of the medium weapon user's attacks will be accurate enough that he deals more than minimum damage, while 10% of the heavy weapon's attackers will do more than minimum. this is the code i used

output 20d{-1,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,2}+1 named "heavy artifact weapon"
output 22d{-1,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,2}+1 named "medium artifact weapon"

if you take away excellencies and just assume excellent strike versus hail-shattering practice, you get like a 71% hit chance for medium versus a 47% hit chance for heavy. it's 71 versus 40 if you take away charms entirely and just assume two armed, armored solars are taking measured swings at each other robotically

Ferrinus posted:

This was me making an attempt to prove to someone else that heavy weapons were on par with medium weapons, and, well, I didn't come out looking good.

Ferrinus posted:

Lemme dig up the stuff I put on anydice, apologies in advance for lack of punctuation/capitalization:


Sorry, I guess it's more like 70/50 or 70/40 rather than 60/30, and the gap closes a bit to 50/30 if charms are in play, but I would never, ever put myself on the worse side of those odds.

I assumed two people with 5s everywhere and top-tier artifact equipment, and then scoped out how it looked when no one was using charms, when everyone was only using full excellencies, and everyone was using full excellencies AND excellent strike vs. hail-shattering practice. This was me making an attempt to prove to someone else that heavy weapons were on par with medium weapons, and, well, I didn't come out looking good.

Transient People posted:

Assuming full excellency dice for anything but a Holy Rider build isn't a good idea in general. Mote efficiency is too huge to go overspending like that for anything but extremely important attacks, like counters, clashes and decisives. I'd do something more like, say...Hailshattering Practice (e1) vs Excellent Strike, or EStrike vs Drifting Leaf Elusion, which is generally much closer to how actual fights play out. I would also not assume maxed stats on both sides in general, because Stamina is a bad deal unless you go all-in on Resistance for EGT mote-generation, and Strength offers a bit more bang for the buck plus can be pushed higher (thanks to ISE), but that's honestly quibbling at that point. The main thing is that assuming maxed out pools is something that's pretty heavy theorycraft, at least according to my play experience. Other players can weigh in with their own experiences if they've seen significantly different results, but I've found that motes are too precious a resource to just burn yourself out unless you face opposition that outmatches you.

Ferrinus posted:

I tried it with no charms and with the basic efficiency-boosting charms but no excellencies. I couldn't find a case in which there wasn't at least a 20 percentage point difference between the medium weapon user's ability to hit the heavy weapon user and vice versa. Even if there was a 10% difference on some third target and self-defense wasn't a concern at all, the incredibly marginal damage advantage the heavy weapon offers is just not attractive in the least.

spectralent posted:

Yeah. I mean the biggest issue is that if you have a crafter it is so much less of a hassle to get stuff because you can just fob that off on someone else rather than go "Ugh now Tim's got to go on his magic bauble roadshow to get enough cheer points to finish the dining tables that will, in ten sessions, result in my sword".

El Estrago Bonito posted:

When we were playing with a craft character we just houseruled that the little piddle things you had to craft in order to get your craft points (or whatever they're called) could be objects that were part of the end thing you were banking your points to make. Like if you wanted to make a house or whatever you could make a bunch of furniture, etc That way it was less like "Steve goes off an makes a bunch of helmets until he suddenly has the inspiration to make boat" or whatever the default WoW-esque system is. It's not a huge change but it was enough of a thematic shift that it worked for me.